Tinuk Shenishbah

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  • #1612552

    laskern
    Participant

    Afer I said that the Jews were a tinuk shenisbah killed in Pittsburgh I was told by ‘1’ that, ‘not every many Jews in America are a tinuk sheisbah. Please Explain.

    #1613250

    1
    Participant

    Most not frum Jews know that they don’t keep kosher or shabbos properly. Those are some examples. I’m not even going to touch reform.

    #1613246

    1
    Participant

    Because many of them know tgat they don’t keep kosher or shabbos properly. Those are some examples. Most Jews in America have some Jewish education.

    #1613286

    Yankelle
    Participant

    There is a difference between knowing what the Orthodox believe to be permitted and forbidden, and actually believing it and knowingly committing a sin.

    #1613307

    Joseph
    Participant

    To be a tinok shenishba a person has to be totally and completely unaware of Judaism.

    #1613328

    1
    Participant

    It doesn’t matter what they believe. The fact that they know and not keep shabbos is enough.

    #1613344

    laskern
    Participant

    If a person was brought up as a reformed or conservative Jew wouldn’t that be a tinuk shenishbah?

    #1613352

    Tinyspark
    Participant

    Most Jews in America did not receive a Jewish education. If they went to their temple Hebrew school that’s not an education. Tinok shenishbah is someone who didn’t learn what it really means to be a Jew like we do in our Yeshivas. Sadly the reform and conservative Jews never learnt the beauty of yiddushkiet and the Torah. Every Jew no matter what mitzvos they keep have a part of Hashem and we have the mitzvah of vahavta lreacha kamocha. We are respecting that they are Jew like us .we are not condoning their actions or lack of.

    #1613360

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Now that they’ve been killed, HY”D, what difference does it make if they were considered tinokos shenishbu? Do we have any leftover wine which they touched?

    #1613359

    1
    Participant

    Tinok shenishbah is someone who didn’t learn what it really means to be a Jew like we do in our Yeshivas

    That’s your PC definition

    #1613363

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s your PC definition

    Probably also the Chazon Ish’s definition. Others (including Rav Moshe Feinstein, I believe) disagree.

    #1613365

    Non Political
    Participant

    1 and Joseph are obviously not aware that the Hazon Ish has already weighed in on this matter and disagreed with them. Or maybe they disagree with the Hazon Ish. So which one is it guys?

    #1613372

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Moshe zt’l defines tinok shenishba the way I described above.

    #1613378

    musser zoger
    Participant

    I think it is hilarious how joseph and tinyspark bandy about halhalacha without actually giving Marei mekomos. I’m wondering if you are tinokos shenishbu. Let’s see a real halachic talk.

    #1613375

    laskern
    Participant

    DY, this was a continuation of a closed thread.

    #1613377

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Moshe writes (Igros Moshe O.C. I #33) that anyone who has even simply seen or heard about religious Jews or the Torah is not considered to be a tinok shenishba.

    #1613387

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, this was a continuation of a closed thread.

    Is that a nafka mina l’halacha? I don’t think you answered my question.

    #1613388

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rav Moshe writes (Igros Moshe O.C. I #33)

    Where in that teshuvah does he say this?

    #1613399

    laskern
    Participant

    There is an argument what tinuk shenishba is which would affect the touching of wine.

    #1613402

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There is an argument what tinuk shenishba is which would affect the touching of wine.

    You wrote: “I said that the Jews were a tinuk shenisbah killed in Pittsburgh”

    I’m asking how the Jews killed in Pittsburgh have to do with touching wine.

    #1613525

    RSo
    Participant

    Perhaps it would be helpful to differentiate between the halachic definition of tinok shenishbah, which, apparently, Reb Moshe held is virtually non-existent in the US, and the case of Jews being raised/educated badly and thus thinking that there is nothing wrong with what they are doing despite them knowing that the Torah considers it wrong.

    The people in Pittsburgh Hy”d may not necessarily technically have been tinokos shenishbu but they may be cases of “omer muttar” and deserving of our pity that they didn’t know any better.

    #1613559

    laskern
    Participant

    DY, Look up YD 345:5 nafka mina lehalacha if moarning applies.

    #1613562

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, Rav Moshe does not say that. On the contrary, he says that in our time someone who desecrates Shabbat does not do so because he has renounced Judaism but for some imagined benefit.

    Rambam (Hilchot Mamrim 3:1) says that the Karaites in his time were condiderd tinokkot shenishbu because they were raised in their beliefs. This is exactly analogous to today’s non-observant Jews. They truly believe that religious commandments are optional. Non-observant coworkers even used the words “prohibited to you” . The Rema (YD 340:5 in the name of the Or Zarua) apparently rules like him.

    #1613601

    DY,
    Everyone loves to quote that one .
    however he refused to look at the face of Ben Gurion because he wicked
    how do they reconcile that?

    furthermore
    So it seems some for personal sins Even grievous ones they may be Tinuk Shenishbah such a category
    If one was submerged in that atmosphere

    For one who however promotes them and and attempts to influence in public (e.g a parade)
    there never Can be categorized as such

    #1613616

    also want to reiterate what I’ve stated previously and that is For
    the seven noahide categories of Commandments there is no Escape valve of Tinok Shenishbah

    Makkos
    9
    That presumably would apply for Jews also

    #1613621

    My previous comment should have been ( primarily)
    for nonpolitical

    #1613639

    1
    Participant

    And reform “rabbis” know more halacha and gemara than a lot ot average yeshiva guys. You’d be surprised.

    #1613688

    laskern
    Participant

    Avi K, should be Rambam Hilchas Mamrim 3:3

    #1613737

    Avi K
    Participant

    The, another fake story. In fact, the CI met with BG and they had a discussion regarding whose camel was more laden and therefore should go first. The CI also said that the observant would eventually win because they have many more children.

    Laskern, TY for the correction.

    Rav Kook (Iggerot HaRaya vol. 1 pg. 170-171) wrote a letter to a rav whose sons all became communists and counseled him not to hate them and even to help them. He compared the spirit of the times to an evil seductress (see also on this Sanhedrin 26b Tosafot d”h hechashud). Rav Yosef Ettlinger was also of this view (Responsa Binyan Tzion HeChadashot 23) as does Rav Asher Weiss (Responsa Minchat Asher 1:10). If you have an hour he has a whole shiur on the subject online You can google (מחלל שבת בפרהסיא (תשע”ז.

    #1613941

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    When yidden were being pushed on to the trains to the Camps, the Nazis didn’t sort them by their frumkeit, which shuls they went to or their observance of taryag mitzvos any more than the butcher in Pittsburgh decided to shoot specific individuals because they were davening in a “conservative” synagogue. The past 3 days have seen dozens of posts by yidden fixated on these distinctions which won’t matter a bit when the anti-semitim come gunning for them and their families. Once and for all, “achaeinu KOL beis yisroel”

    #1613958

    GH,
    common refrain though it is, it is not entirely accurate

    The karaites convinced the Nazis that they weren’t to be considered Jewish and indeed they weren’t
    rounded up with the others (even though prior they always claimed they were Jews)

    #1614078

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ It Is Time For Truth

    “For one who however promotes them and and attempts to influence in public (e.g a parade)
    there never Can be categorized as such”

    Interesting. What does this have to do with whether one is considered a tinok sh’nishba or not?

    #1614126

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    The karaites convinced the Nazis that they weren’t to be considered Jewish and indeed they weren’t

    I heard that it was the opposite, that the rabbanim saved them (by saying they weren’t Jewish) so at least some Jews survived

    #1614141

    iacisrmma
    Participant
    #1614156

    StuartW
    Participant

    Thank you iacisrmma.
    I watched the video upon your recommendation. This Rabbi epitomizes yiddishkeit. He looks for the good in leople. He recognizes that the kedoshim were trying to get close to Hashem in the way they knew how. We can all learn from him how to think of fellow yidden.

    #1614172

    StuartW
    Participant

    Gadolhadorah, I would like you to read this, and tell me if you believe recreational weed is ok (where legal).

    As for medicinal, no hechsher is required anyhow, as far as the psak I am aware of (also discussed in the link i believe).

    I have never started a thread, but if i ever do, I don’t want it to be on recreational drugs. I am not a fan. Not judging others though.

    #1614182

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Whatever one holds whether it is based on Torah or their own “boich svarahs” is irrelevant. Having this debate while standing in front of your fellow Jew is unquestionably hurtful and can do nothing other than cause a chilul Hashem. Having a debate on the internet for the whole world to read is the same as talking in front of other people. Do you guys really imagine you are standing in a coffee room and no one else can hear you?

    #1614166

    StuartW,

    The Prophets didn’t and wouldn’t have agreed

    אליהו הנביא: עד מתי אתם אתם פוסחים על שתי הסעיפים

    Really trying to bend over backwards tying yourselves in knots??

    #1614190

    StuartW
    Participant

    CTRebbe,

    I have an answer to your post, but we can’t have a debate on the internet, so I won’t state it here.

    #1614214

    Avi K
    Participant

    Dor, Rav Soloveichik , in fact, said that that is the lesson of the Holocaust.

    CA, you are correct. The Nazis ym”s did not know what to do about the Karates so they asked three Jewish professors. To save their lives they said that they are not Jewish. However, Rav Ovadia says (Yabia Omer 8:12) they are and it is even permitted to marry a Karaite who declares acceptance of Rabbinic Judaism although some Ashkenazic poskim rule that they need giyur l’chumra.

    Iacisrmma, TY for the post. Note that he said the word “shul” twice. Just one small point. It was not the exactly the anniversary of Kristallnacht . That was two days before. However, 18 Marcheshvan is the date of the meeting to make further plans.

    Time, there is a midrash that says that Hashem fired Eliahu for badmouthing Am Yisrael. Because he said that they did not do berit mila he has to come to every berit.

    #1614291

    StuartW
    Participant

    Its time for the truth, I don’t know what I wrote that you are critisizing for trying to tie myself in knots.

    As far as I know, the only opinions I expressed are that I am not a fan if recreational drugs and that I liked Rav Bender’s video. I also referenced a chabad link but offered no opinion on it.

    Please clarify.

    #1615260

    laskern
    Participant
    #1615459

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Hashem judges us based on the amount of free will a person has.
    Isn’t there some big name Rabbi who has the theory of nekudat habechira? I have more free will to stay up another hour than to go kill someone.

    Even if someone isn’t a “tinok shenishba” they are judged on their free will.

    #1615509

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Why do some feel compelled to attached labels to the kadoshim who were niftar shabbos morning before they were even in the ground?? They were yidden who died al kidush hashem. Period. End of story. Full stop.

    #1615562

    Avi K
    Participant

    Laskern, unfortunately there are “rabbis” who claim ruach hakodesh and both say and do terrible things. This is nothing new. During the time of the Bayit Rishon there were false prophets. There were Shabtai Tzvi and Yaakov Frank ar”y. There is also the infamous “rabbi from the north in Israel”. Someone once even conned a married woman into doing an extremely serious aveira by claiming to be Eliau haNavi (see Responsa Binyan Tzion of Rav Yaakov Ettlinger 154).

    Shopping, the “big name rabbi” is Rav Dessler.

    #1615582

    luckshun kugel
    Participant

    R Simcha Wasserman zt”l once told me (in mid ’79s) that the first reform rabbis were rashoyim; they knew better yet they rebelled against the Torah and halacha, but he told me that he doubts if today’s reform and conservative leaders are rashoyim since they never learned what is Torah and halacha, rather they grew up thinking (incorrectly) that there is three types of Judaism: reform, conservative and orthodox.

    Same can be said today about the Peleg boys. Their leaders are rashoyim but the boys can not tell the difference between a kosher rav and a nut case rav, so they say, you have your rav and we have our rav.

    #1616650

    R Simcha Wasserman zt”l was comparing different parts of the Jewish mosaic
    to different parts of the Armed Forces
    A reform Rabbi asked him: so where do we fall on the Spectrum
    His prompt reply: you’re the deserters

    GH,etc.
    And as per his father Hy”d based on his last speech shortly before he was killed ,
    the massacred probably do not fall in that category
    And some might know he probably would have been castigating Vociferously

    #1616651

    Avi K,
    What about the early Mizrahi leadership’s great visions of working together with secularists
    or say those who propagate TUM
    ?

    #1616692

    yzj
    Participant

    In this case it is actually irrelevant if they are a tinok shenishba or a mumar.
    קיצור שולחן ערוך סימן ר״א
    כל הפורשים מדרכי הצבור, והם האנשים שפרקו עול המצוות מעל צוארם, ואין נכללים בכלל ישראל בעשיית המצווה, אלא הרי הם כבני חורים לעצמם, וכן המומרים והמוסרים והאפיקורסים, כל אלו אין אוננים ואין מתאבלין עליהם, אלא אחיהם ושאר קרוביהם לובשים לבנים ומתעטפים לבנים, ואוכלים ושותים ושמחים על שאבדו שונאו של מקום, ועליהם הכתוב אומר הלא משנאיך ה’ אשנא, ואומר באבוד רשעים רנה.

    סעיף ה אם נהרג בין בדינא דמלכותא בין בענין אחר, אפילו היה מומר מתאבלין עליו, דכיון שנהרג בידי אדם ולא מת כדרך כל הארץ הוי ליה כפרה.

    I have heard too many people quoting se’if dalet, yet they are ignorant of se’if heh, which is a Gemara in Sanhedrin 47a and is brought down in the beis yosef siman 345 and the shack in siman 340. Clearly these victims should be mourned as per the halacha.

    #1616898

    Avi K
    Participant

    Time,

    1. Are you saying that if secularists do a mitzva we should not do it out of spite?

    2. Rav Kook pointed out that a person has two sides: his private side and his national side. One can be a tzaddik on one side and a rasha on the other. Those secularists who were moser nefesh for EY were tzaddikim on their national side.

    3. I already posted above that Rav Kook also said that today’s secularists are not responsible because they have been seduced by the spirit of the time (cf. Gittin 41b Tosafot d”h Cofin and Sanhedrin 26b Tosafot d”hHechashud). He wrote:
    אבל אם יחשוב כת”ר, כרוב המון הלומדים, שראוי בזמן הזה לעזוב להפקר את אותם הבנים אשר סרו מדרכי תורה והאמונה על ידי זרם הזמן הסוער, הנני אומר בפה מלא שלא זו הדרך אשר ד’ חפץ בה. כשם שכתבו תוס’ סנהדרין (כו, ב ד”ה החשוד) דיש סברא לומר דלא יפסל החשוד על העריות לעדות משום דחשיבי כמו אונס משום דיצרו תקפו, וכהאי גוונא שכתבו כן תוס’ גיטין (מא, ב ד”ה כופין) שכיוון שהשפחה משדלתם לזנות חשיבי כאנוסים, כן היא “שפחה בישא” של זרם הזמן, שנתנו לה מן השמים שליטה טרם שתכלה לגמרי ותנדוף כעשן, שהיא משדלת בכל כשפיה הרבים את בנינו הצעירים לזנות אחריה. הם אנוסים גמורים, וחלילה לנו לדון אונס כרצון.

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