February 23, 2009 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #674524
Rabbi Abraham j. Twerski has written why the metzius changed. he said that it used to be that weak babies were killed by childhood disease. Everyone who urvived was much stronger. today, due to our good neonatal care system, even the weak survive. The weaker ones are more susceptible to addiction.February 23, 2009 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #674525feivelParticipant
you should drink if you have learned and understand why it is a Mitzvah to drink on Purim, and if you do it l’shaym shamayim.
if you do it because you have been influenced by the velt who have come to think of Purim as a time of hefker and unrestrained kalus rosh, you shouldnt drink.
Purim is one of, and perhaps, THE most Kodesh of the times of the year. the yetzer hara expends much energy on misdirecting us regarding Purim because of this.February 23, 2009 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #674526TJMember
Mayan: I don’t have my own opinion on what ad d’lo yada means. All I know is that most poskim have either rejected ad d’lo yada or understood it as meaning something other than complete stupor. I don’t know if it’s fair to say that the face value of ad d’lo yada is that you’re not yotzei till you’re drunk out of your mind. There are different opinions on what the poshut pshat is here. A number of rishonim understand the simple meaning of the statement as saying that ad d’lo yada is the limit at which a person should drink no more, rather than the goal that needs to be reached. The Rambam, as understood by some achronim, holds that there is no shiur for how much one should drink or for how drunk one should get. There is simply an obligation to engage in drinking. If a person happens to reach the point of ad d’lo yada, such as if they pass out or otherwise achieve the status of a shoteh, they are obviously no longer mechuyav b’mitzvos hayom. This fits quite well with the simple mashma’us of the gemara.
The predominant p’sak in practical terms is to simply drink yoseir milimudo.
The Beis Haleivi wrote that people should only get drunk if they are doing it lishma. Many recent poskim have stressed the fact that people should only get drunk if they know that won’t behave in a dangerous or assur manner. (That includes bentching or davening while drunk, which is assur). The purim seuda should be a tikkun for the seuda of Achashveirosh, not, chalilah, lehefech.
My RY holds of yoseir milimudo. Personally, I usually have a little more than one bottle of wine during the seuda. That’s more than the arba kosos I have on Pesach, which is the only other time I drink, so I think that I am yotzei “yoseir milimudo.” I can easily recite poems and calculate gematriyos afterward, so I suppose I’m not yotzei Tosfos or the Be’er Hagolah. :February 23, 2009 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #674527JayMatt19Participant
feivel. Well said.
Whenever there is greater Kiddusha, the yetzer hara works overtime. Remember Yom Kippurim is the day Like Purim!! When can reach the highest of highs, lets not blow it acting like whatever whilst drinking at times when there is no mitzva to drink.
Side question. Among those here who drink, how many stop at shkiah?February 23, 2009 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #674528flatbush27Member
jaymatt: i never said anywhere it is a mitzva to drink by night. i said its ok because the entire Purim you should be misamaech so i dont see a big deal in drinking by night
oomis: i never said drunks didnt cause major accidents etc. but for someone to say you shouldnt get drunk because you may kill someone is ridiculus.February 24, 2009 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #674529RoshYeshivahMember
I’m not bothering to look through the whole thread.Of course to drink! It’s says so in Shulchan Aruch!!February 24, 2009 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #674530insuranceguyMemberFebruary 24, 2009 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #674531
but for someone to say you shouldnt get drunk because you may kill someone is ridiculus.
I would equate that statement to those who say not to use the internet because it can cause spiritual harm. In fact, you can recover from spiritual harm, but you cannot unkill someone.
Personally, as a teenager this was a mitzvah I was very makpid on 🙂February 24, 2009 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #674532flatbush27Member
sjs: how are those 2 statements equateable? the internet causes spiritual harm every single day R”L to Yidden. I never heard a story of a drunk Yid killing someone when he was drunk on Purim. If you feel that people shouldnt get drunk on Purim there are many valid reasons as to why not. Killing people is not one of themFebruary 24, 2009 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #674533
I don’t have time to read this whole thread, but are there really people who don’t get drunk on purim?????? I never knew. I’m always too drunk to know who’s sober and who’s not. 🙂February 24, 2009 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #674534feivelParticipant
“but you cannot unkill someone”
not nowadaysFebruary 24, 2009 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #674535
I never heard a story of a drunk Yid killing someone when he was drunk on Purim
I will look around for stories but I know plenty where people were hurt. When I was growing up, a young boy (around 8) was hit by a semi-drunk driver. He was in a coma for a while and eventually recovered. I am sure that there were deaths out there.
How do I equate the two? I don’t – I think drinking and driving on Purim is far worse than using the internet. The internet has good uses – drinking and driving doesnt. Unfortunately, I think people use the percieved hefkeiros of Purim for negative, not positive.February 24, 2009 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #674536
charlie- your family doesn’t have pics and/or video clips of what actually goes on? these are the best family memories we haveFebruary 24, 2009 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #674537
areivim, they have plenty of pics of me making a fool of myself, lol.February 24, 2009 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #674538
this is sumfin I GOTTA seeFebruary 24, 2009 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #674539
In my yeshiva we had a group of vocal guys who were against the chillul Hashem that goes on when all the guys drink themselves to the floor. One day one of them talked to one of the janitors brought in special for Purim. The janitor said that he’s actually impressed – when goyim get drunk they get mean and nasty.February 24, 2009 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #674540
thanks Jothar. you just made everything so clear: only drink if you’re really a nice guy deep down inside. (or maybe not so deep down.)February 24, 2009 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #674541
it is awesome to see what comes out when a true yid & ben torah gets drunkFebruary 24, 2009 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #674542
you’re cordially invited to my purim tish. Just make sure to bring plenty of wine. I assume you get drunk too?
I’ve heard comments like that too several times from non frum ppl who were invited to a purim seuda and witnessed frum shikkurim on purim.
In all seriousness, you should only get drunk if:
1. you will act in a way that will cause comments like Jothar’s janitor, not chas veshalom the opposite.
2. you MUST give your car keys to someone else before you start drinking and tell them to keep them hidden from you no matter how sober you will claim to be. I give my car keys to my wife every year when I pour my first cup of red wine.February 24, 2009 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #674543YW Moderator-42Moderator
Among those here who drink, how many stop at shkiah?
I heard that the mitzvah goes past shkia into Shushan Purim except in Yerushalayim where Purim is celebrated on Shushan Purim. That is why some people in Yerushalayim are makpid to stop drinking at shkia, although most will hold by the latest zman for shkia or will even be makpid to drink until tzeis (Rabeinu Tam of course)!February 24, 2009 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #674544
charlie- I can’t confirm… against the CR ‘personal’ rules 😉February 24, 2009 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #674545
I’ll ask you again on purim when you are too drunk to remember the rules. And hopefully the mods will be drunk too and let the post thru. 🙂February 24, 2009 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #674546
areivim, charlie – you’re my new role models.
hey, don’t not drink because i’m watching… even my dad drinks on purim!February 24, 2009 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #674547JayMatt19Participant
First of all, I am in Yerushalayim, so I’ll need to stop by shkiah.
Looking at the shulchan aruch/mishna berura, he also mentions the need to daven ma’ariv after. One could say that the mitzva of drinking only applies when one will daven a propper ma’ariv after (Ben Azzi type thinking of Yachor L’limudo).
i.e. the mitzva was never said in a situation which would result in no ma’arivFebruary 24, 2009 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #674548
When I am drunk, I tend to play chess (and a mean game!) and recite the alphabet backwards 🙂February 24, 2009 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #674549
SJS, I Challenge!February 24, 2009 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #674550
Squeak, I accept! But, since I’m pregnant, you’ll have to wait about a year and a half (till I’m done nursing). So, September 2010! I’m ready 🙂February 24, 2009 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #674551
Again, I’m totally against people drinking themselves to the floor, rolling around in their vomit, and being tofeach al menas lehatfiach with their vomit-covered bodies. I’m also against people putting themselves in a situation of sakanah. And of course i’m against people who don’t do the deoraysahs like Krias shma and bentching. But I just thought it prudent to point out the flipside too- yeshiva guys, even at their worst, are better than goyim.
As one of my rabbeim used to say, “Purim brings out the best in people- their lunch, their supper…”February 24, 2009 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #674552
squeak, you challenge sjs when you’re drunk or sober?February 24, 2009 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #674553
moish, it doesnt matter to me LOL. Although, I am a bit out of practice. Gotten sharpen my skills!February 24, 2009 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #674554
>> As one of my rabbeim used to say, “Purim brings out the best in people- their lunch, their supper…” <<
(don’t ask me why I just found that so funny… I must be drunk;))February 24, 2009 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #674555
Anytime SJS. But why would I have to wait? See my new thread.
I should warn you, my rating was over 2000 at one point (USCF).February 24, 2009 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #674556
OK squeak I resign. I was once rated in the 900s LOL.February 24, 2009 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #674557
I don’t not drink for nobody!February 24, 2009 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #674558
why? one of my friends father never ever drinks anything. he’s a freak about it. he’s petrified that one of his kids might take a tiny sip of wine.
mind you, this friend would give anything to drink rubbing alcohol. stupid father in my opinion. doesn’t teach him how to drink, just forbids him to.February 24, 2009 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #674559
I do not accept your resignation.February 24, 2009 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #674560
moish- is that the big guy that wrecked your leg or the friend with the black and yellow glasses?February 24, 2009 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #674561
I agree with you. You said that we shouldn’t not drink because of you and I meant to respond that nobody would cause me to not drink. To be grammaticaly correct I should have said “I don’t not drink for anybody”February 24, 2009 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #674562
haha nice try areivim. i have more than two friends.February 24, 2009 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #674563
haha of course we never hang out in his house. not that we drink anything all that often. none of us like his dad though – he’s way too stiff and overprotective.
(so Mr. _____ if you’re reading here you should just know ;))February 24, 2009 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #674564
moish- you didn’t even ask how I know one of your friends have black glasses with yellow on the rimFebruary 24, 2009 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #674565
i don’t even know who wears glasses or lenses anymore. i don’t look at guys that closely 😉February 24, 2009 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #674566
ok… but aren’t you curious how I did notice this?
… of course the mods would never allow me to reveal. But what would you say if I told you I basically confirmed (95% sure) that I once saw you in the not so distant past?February 24, 2009 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #674567
red beardFebruary 24, 2009 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #674571
moish- they didn’t wanna post my comeback to ‘red beard’, sorry- i know you woulda laughedFebruary 25, 2009 12:28 am at 12:28 am #674573JosephParticipant
If someone follows a shitta that he must be drunk ad d’lo yada – and according to his shitta that means until he doesn’t know the difference between arrur haman and baruch mordechai, he is a tzaddik for doing so.February 25, 2009 1:47 am at 1:47 am #674574asdfghjklParticipant
charlie brown: , but are there really people who don’t get drunk on purim?????? I never knew. I’m always too drunk to know who’s sober and who’s not. 🙂
ha ha ha i’m so with ya on that!!! can i b invited to yout purim tish too??? i’ll bring the scotch!!! wine’s not my thing!!!!!!
areivimzehlazeh >> As one of my rabbeim used to say, “Purim brings out the best in people- their lunch, their supper…” <<
i donno where on this thread u found this, must have been from jaymatt19 with the<<<<, but hilarious one there!!!!February 25, 2009 2:34 am at 2:34 am #674576
asdfghjkl, no scotch on purim. i think everyone says that there’s no point.February 25, 2009 2:46 am at 2:46 am #674577asdfghjklParticipant
moish: no point to scotch??? y not????? vodka then????????February 25, 2009 2:54 am at 2:54 am #674578
Dont worry squeak, just playing you will raise my rating LOL. I’m still provisional!
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