March 5, 2009 2:17 am at 2:17 am #674694
Kiruvwife wrote: “According to the Editors post it would seem there is a machlokes on what the issur is in getting ‘dead drunk’.”
I’d advise you to ask your own poseik about that.
I don’t know who the YW Editor is, but your poseik is not blogging on YWN. He knows the mishna berurah better than the Editor ever will in his life.March 5, 2009 2:35 am at 2:35 am #674695kiruvwifeMember
Thanks TJ- as an aside, I don’t think my poseik will encourage me to get dead drunk even if he holds it’s muttar. And I don’t have any interest. I’m not here to judge anyone’s level of Torah scholarship-i was just pointing out the assumed dispute once I had a definition of “dead drunk”.March 5, 2009 2:57 am at 2:57 am #674696
“I’m not here to judge anyone’s level of Torah scholarship”
I know – neither was I. I was just joking around. Perhaps you missed where the Editor wrote:
“I don’t know who Jothar is, but these gedolim are not blogging on YWN. And don’t start with the “they are on a higher madreiga” nonsense. They know the mishna berurah better than you ever will in your life. Period.”
Anyway, I was spoofing that. Sometimes, in the spirit of v’nahafoch hu, when reuvein knocks shimon down a peg, it is nice to remind reuvein of his own place. As Hillel said: “Al da’ateift, atfuch.” (To the velt: Please don’t take this as an invitation to start ragging on me, too.)March 5, 2009 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #674698kiruvwifeMember
thanks again–my ability to decipher jokes is sometimes rusty-especially when they’re typed.March 5, 2009 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #674700flatbush27Member
you really have to write eithe jk at the end or :). it tells everyone its a joke so dont ge offended:)March 5, 2009 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #674701
Fair enough, flatbush.March 6, 2009 7:12 am at 7:12 am #674702
816. The Rama brings the opinion of The Kol Bo that one may fulfill the mitzvah of drinking wine on Purim by simply drinking more wine than normal (e.g. more than one would usually drink on Yom Tov) and then going to sleep. The Mishnah Brurah comments positively; “and it is fitting to do so”. Shulchan Aruch w/Mishnah Brurah 695:2 MB5, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 144:6, Chayei Odom 155:8, Kaf Hachaim sk16
Please note the part that says to simply drink more than one would normally drink on Yom tov. With the exception of Pesach, my family emmbers and I never have more than one kos of wine on Shabbos or Yom tov. So drinking TWO kosos would be more than usual. Please note, is says nowhere in this makor that one should become plastered.March 6, 2009 9:35 am at 9:35 am #674703JayMatt19Participant
>>Please note, is says nowhere in this makor that one should become plastered. <<
oomis, this has already been stated previously (by others, as well as myself). However, do be aware the are opinions who disagree with the Rama.March 6, 2009 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #674706moish01Member
haven’t looked at this thread in a while, so i don’t know if i’m repeating something or contradicting a source.
tzippi, it is assur for a woman to get drunk. in general, a married woman may drink in the presence of her husband. (i think that’s correct)
now apply that to purim.March 6, 2009 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #674707honestlyfrumMember
Purim Time For a Sober Look At Jews and Alcohol
By Moshe Werzberger MD
As I was driving on Shabbos, rushing an intoxicated, unresponsive teenager who was vomiting blood to the ER, the absurdity of the situation was painfully evident to me. Here was a young student who together with some friends at an Oneg Shabbos had, without any second thought, drunk himself to the point of endangering his life. Yet, on Purim we allow our children unrestricted access to alcohol, endangering their lives.
An unresponsive, intoxicated patient requires approximately nine hours to return to sobriety. During this time of stupor, lethargy, and diminished reflexes, the patient is in danger. He may lose control of his airway, vomit, choke, and heaven forbid die. He may have a seizure, or suffer an irregular heartbeat. If someone is used to drinking alcohol on a regular basis it is possible for him to attain much higher alcohol levels, which can cause him to lapse into a coma, or even to die from direct alcohol poisoning.
It is time to reevaluate our community’s use of alcohol. Clearly we are drinking much more than our parent’s generation, and our children are drinking more than us. This is the age of “At Risk Children”. Doesn’t anyone see the obvious correlation between the profuse alcohol consumption among our youth and the unprecedented number of children using illegal and dangerous drugs?
In the other communities, addicts of all backgrounds, from the inner city to the affluent suburbs, were studied to find a common cause for their addiction. The common denominator found between these disparate groups was the early introduction to the recreational use of alcohol.
Have you taken an objective look at how much alcohol you drink? How many shots do you have at a kiddush? How many drinks do you have on Friday night? Are you well versed in the differences between the single malts, barrel proof bourbons, and of course the 127 proof Bookers? Have you spoken to your teenage son, asked him about his alcohol consumption? Does he have a few beers at a party or Oneg Shabbos? Does he drink hard liquor at a kiddush on Shabbos, or at a wedding or Bar Mitzvah? How much is he drinking while away at camp? At affairs, our underage youth drink beer and hard liquor in full view of the adults, without any reprimand. It is not uncommon for there to be several of our youth, clearly intoxicated, at a given event.
To be clear; alcohol is a drug, with dangerous and possibly deadly consequences. It is not OK for teenagers to drink liquor or beer. It is unhealthy, illegal, and can lead to Marijuana, Cocaine, or Heroin addiction, not to mention the potential for lifelong alcohol dependency. It is not OK for an adult to have multiple drinks at a kiddush or affair. This is unhealthy for the adult and is incongruent with the behavior we ought to expect from our children.
As Jews, we were given the gift of a Torah way of life. Noach’s son Shem was blessed because of his dignified behavior when his father became intoxicated. Cham, however was cursed due to his improper response to the situation. Jews until now had an admirable reputation for sobriety. The Torah teaches us how to elevate the use of alcohol through the commandments; such as kiddush on shabbos, the four cups at the seder, wedding ceremonies, and circumcisions. This is the proper setting for the use of alcohol.
One of the commandments of Purim is to drink. But how much need one drink to fulfill his obligation, is there a limit? How could it be that God requires us to endanger our lives, and the lives of others in order to fulfill our obligation on Purim? According to the Halacha the proper way to celebrate on Purim is as follows. The commandment of drinking is only fulfilled with wine. Therefore, beer and liquor should not be drunk at all on Purim. Furthermore, this commandment only applies at the daytime Purim meal. Any amount of wine, which will cause the person to become intoxicated and behave in an improper manner, should not be drunk on Purim.
Teenagers who make the rounds collecting charity on Purim should not be served alcohol. You are endangering their lives, and the lives of others. Furthermore, you are legally responsible for any harm resulting from their intoxication.
On Purim we celebrate that God saved us from destruction at the hands of an external enemy. Today, the immediate threat to the future of the Jewish people is from our own behavior. In the merit of celebrating Purim properly, may we triumph over the threat of addiction, and may we see our children grow to become good Jews and successful people.
This article by Dr. Moshe Werzberger, practicing internist in Brooklyn, NY and Former Chairman of Emergency Medicine at Brookdale University Hospital is distributed as a public service by The Orthodox Caucus and its task force on Substance Abuse.March 6, 2009 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #674708
JayMatt, I actually was sent that makor from a daily halacha site that sends me…well… daily halachos. I think the Mishneh Berurah note is interesting. In any case, I am all talked out on this subject. Whoever does drink, please use your seichel and keep yourself and everyone around you, safe. And whatever you do — stay FAR FAR away from my back yard 😉 , willya?March 8, 2009 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #674709
Re Moishe01: check out the dressing up thread. You wouldn’t believe the reid on women drinking, and where it’s coming from. (NOT from me 😉February 15, 2010 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #674711
drinking is a mitzva on purim by the seuda! cant wait!February 16, 2010 2:44 am at 2:44 am #674712aries2756Participant
I remember the incident that Dr. Werzberger wrote about. The kids went to get the Dr. before they went to get the parents because they were scared to death. The parents had no clue the kids were drinking because it didn’t happen in the home. It was really touch and go for a while, it shook up the entire neighborhood. These were not at-risk kids. They found a bottle in shul. They were all shocked that the child passed out, had trouble breathing and was basically comatose.
This is not a joke, it is a very serious issue and unfortunately PEOPLE ARE JUST NOT GETTING IT! The more you argue that it is allowed and should be permitted the more you are telling young kids to go kill themselves. NO it is not allowed and NO it is not the halacha and absolutely NO it is not a mitzvah. Furthermore it is against the law to drink under the age of 21.
I have worked with at-risk for many years and I want you to know that nothing should be taken lightly. Not the cigarette smoking and not the drinking. It never ends there and it is never occasional, it just seems that way because they are good at hiding it. If they can’t buy alcohol in the store they buy cough syrup they call it “robotripping”.
Alcohol and nicotine are known as “gateway” drugs. They lead to stronger and more satisfying drugs when kids get too used to the alcohol and nicotine. Once they no longer get the high or numbness they are looking for they need to reach further. So when you make excuses for getting drunk, when you make excuses for kids drinking or allow it or give it to them, you are guilty of adding to the delinquency of a minor and make no bones about it.
Understand something else and please understand this well. EVERYONE THAT WALKS THROUGH THE LIFE OF A CHILD HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO THAT CHILD. Do you know what that means? It means you have to be the best role model you can be to all the children of K’lal Yisroel. Now ask me again whether or not getting drunk on Purim is a mitzvah or whether or not kids should be permitted to drink on Purim. As a role model for children what would you say now?February 16, 2010 2:51 am at 2:51 am #674713
I think that parents and R”Y need to get together and insist that the rebbeim start teaching the boys a different form of ad d’lo yada.February 16, 2010 3:07 am at 3:07 am #674715
Nathan, I’ll take what you say seriously, but having got to know Oomis from her comments, she doesn’t seem to fit the profile of the unhealthily protective sheltering parent.
This isn’t Mardi Gras. This is very focused drinking. Unfortunately, there seem to be fewer examples of how to drink in the Purim spirit for the next generation to learn from.February 16, 2010 3:11 am at 3:11 am #674716
ok your right. sorry oomis for saying your unhealthily overprotective. i dont know u from a hole in the wall and i was wrong but i do believe if someone doesnt allow their teen to drink on purim even a little when supervised then i think thats too overprotectiveFebruary 16, 2010 3:24 am at 3:24 am #674717PeerimsameachParticipant
strait up we shud b allowd to drink at wtevr age and evn if its banned by R”y we will get on hands on it. When everyones drinking it’s hard to stop underaged kids frum getting it.if rabbi so and so is drinking why can’t I?February 16, 2010 3:48 am at 3:48 am #674718YW Moderator-42Moderator
drinking is a mitzva on purim by the seuda! cant wait!
Is it the mitzvah that you can’t wait for or the drinking? That simple perspective can be the difference between a meaningful Purim and a regular drunken partyFebruary 16, 2010 3:54 am at 3:54 am #674719
good point mod. i think whats behind your words is lishma or shelo lishma, but it says shelo lishma leads into lishma so maybe if lets say my intentions in the begining are not lishma hopefully at somepoint it will be lishma.February 16, 2010 6:54 am at 6:54 am #674720anuranParticipant
Aries, forget “gateway”. Alcohol and tobacco and physically dangerous, deadly poison. They are highly addictive. Tobacco is, according to the medical literature, several times more difficult to quit than cocaine. The only reason we tolerate them is that we’re used to them. In all honesty, I’d rather someone smoke cannabis than drink if both were legal. And cigarets should be as much of a crime as heroin.February 16, 2010 8:07 am at 8:07 am #674721yankdownunderMember
Save the drinking in your own home not in the Bais Medresh. Moshka smells awful when imbibing among the Siddurim and the Seforim and Hashems Sefer Torah. Please don’t drive after consuming Moshka. Designate someone sober to drive. Keep the roadways safe during Chag Purim!February 16, 2010 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #674722
For some reason I think its time for people to step back and look at drinking from a different perspective.
Chazal teach us that one can see the essence of a person from three things one of those is drinking. The reason is because after one drinks to the point where he has no control over himself then his essence comes out. You get to see who he really is.
In fact the simple way of understandin the Chiyuv on Purim is through this Mamar Chazal.
Normally one acts in a refined manner simply because he knows the difference between good and bad.
On Purim we are told to bring ourselves to a point beyond that where we do not have a conscious realization of the difference between “Mordechai” good and “Haman” bad. But still we are must act as Mordechai in other words on Purim we bring out the essence of a person.
Have we ever stopped to realize what it is that is occuring around us on Purim.
Yes Boys and Men are Drunk, Totally Drunk.
But what are the vast majority of them doing?
Hugging and Kissing each other collecting money for tzeddaka. Crying over the past year and making up with those they did not get along with. Yes they are wild, very wild. But I have yet to see fighting between men on Purim rather it is utter Joy one sees.
In my opinion the greatest Kidddush Hashem of the entire year is on Purim it is the one time we get to see the true difference between a Yid and Goy we get to see yidden with no control over themselves with no real knowledge of their actions showing their inherent Beauty.
And if it comes to pass that this changes then it is the Parents and Rabbeim those raising a new generation that must stop and ask themselves why this is.
Why is that we are raising a new generation that is inherently unhappy that when drunk does not act like the Bochrim of five years ago rather acts like a goy?
That is a question that I am afraid those that campaighn against drinkning will not ask for it would raise questions that require ansewers many are unwilling to give.
In conclusion I would like to relate an episode I witnessed as a Bochur.
It was Purim Day and we were all drinking at my Maggid Shiurs house. An elderly Russian Man was passing by and someone invited him in.
He was an obvious irreligious Jew.
He stayed the whole day.
At night he told some he was a Doctor who was about to retire. He had never done mitzvos since he grew up in Communist Russia.
He went on to say that he had never seen anything so moving in his entire life.
In Russia when people would get drunk they would kill each other over here for the first time in his life he saw a buch of Drunk men with their teacher dead drunk and singing and dancing with each other.
He then asked if someone could get him in touch with a person to teach him about Torah.
Seeing a bunch of Drunk and wild Yeshiva Bochrim on Purim brought a Feir Yid to Torah,
Are we capable of seeing what this Frei Yid saw.February 16, 2010 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #674723aries2756Participant
Anuran, I don’ tolerate!!!
Ben Levi, you choose to see what YOU want to see, what I see is strangers throwing up in other strangers homes. Kids getting drunk because they are supposedly allowed to, adults getting drunk and their children so scared they are clinging to their mothers. It is not funny and it is not a joke. It is a big chilul Hashem and it is a dangerous situtaion gone way, way too far over the years, way past the point of l’shma. It has nothing to do with simcha and has nothing to do with being m’kayim a mitzvah. It ruins the yom tov for Hatzolah members, ruins the simcha for parents worried about their children and causes tremendous shalom bayis issues for many couples whose wives and in-laws do not appreciate the drunkeness nor the behavior of the drunk.
There are many damages including illness, accidents, and material damage. And even if there is ONE casualty it is ONE casualty too many because every JEW and every life is precious and even one life is too many to risk. THAT IS OUR HALACHA K’DIN. NOT TO MENTION THE HOSPITAL AND EMERGENCY ROOM STAFF THAT SEE DRUNKEN YIDDIN THAT LOOK LIKE DRUNKEN GOYIM.
In addition, YOU choose to see Jews forgiving each other in their drunken state, but you fail to mention they DON’T remember that the next day and the fight continues. What you also fail to mention is the brawls and fights that continue in the parking lots and the side rooms of the Yeshiva because the drunks insult each other, their spouses, sisters, divrei torah or Rebbeim. Not to mention the purim shpiels that go too far insulting and parodying , in what consider good fun, baalei batim and Rabbonim.
There is a difference in drinking at the seuda a shiur which will be mekayem the mitzvah and drinking to get drunk. There is also a difference between drinking at the seuda and starting a day early! If you really want to be mekayem a mitzvah and be mekayem the Chag appropriately stick to the rules.February 16, 2010 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #674724
ben levi: Amen brother! beautifuly said!
aries: u choose what you choose to see. you see the glass half empty. you see ten guys outside the yeshiva or in the side rooms fighting and throwing up, but me and ben levi see the 100 people in the yeshiva experiencing true Purim Sameach. The amount of people who act in a leibidig kosher Purim spirit way far outnumber the idiots who act r”l like goyim. the problem is these idots are usually outside for the rabim to see which gives the majority a bad name. when you see the whole picture youl come to realize ben levi is right and you are misinformed to say the leastFebruary 16, 2010 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #674725lavdavkaMember
HOW COME ALL YOU NAY SAYERS THINK YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THE CHACHAMIM IN THE GEMARA ANd dont tell me todays differant. thats what the reform say. ask your rav what to do and if he thinks your at risk of over doing maybe he will tell you not to. but as of now lets keep it status quoe and follow what were toldFebruary 16, 2010 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #674726
Aries i just wondered what you mean by drinking a shiur to fulfill the mitzva but not drinking to get drunk?
Lets see, either you hold like those that say you can sleep, however they hold that you must fall asleep from the drinking. I always wondered if there is anyone who actually does this.
Or you can hold that the mitzva is to get drunk.
Or you can hold the mitzva is to drink and getting drunk is a “P’Tur” but till you are drunk you are mchuyov to keep drinking.
Your statement jives with none of these.
Also, I just wanted to add that while I am sure there are many emergencies. However, when I was a bochur a friend of mine was brought into Maimonodies on Purim Night, he was kept there the whole night. For the entire time he was there the bochur who accompanied him stated that only one other person was brought in. Incidentally, the other Bochur who was brought in admitted he gets drunk basically every Friday Night.
My friend was there the entire night and discharged early in the morning. The Frum Doctor tried to tell him what a chillul Hashem it was that he was brought in. Whereby My friends comapanion asked why was he brought in in the first place, he did not need pumping and Hatzola kept him in the ambulance for an hour before he was brought in.
The excuse? If we are called down we must bring him in whether he needs it or not.
Point: Maimonidies Hospital Purim Night had a Total of Two people brought in, one of whom did not need it. I find that illuminating.February 16, 2010 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #674727
“HOW COME ALL YOU NAY SAYERS THINK YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THE CHACHAMIM IN THE GEMARA ANd dont tell me todays differant. thats what the reform say. ask your rav what to do and if he thinks your at risk of over doing maybe he will tell you not to. but as of now lets keep it status quoe and follow what were told “
Lavdavka, as long as you are as dedicated to doing the other mitzvos as strongly you are to this
“one” I have no problem. DO you give kibud av v’eim, keep Shabbos,kashrus, and all mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro to the same degree as you do getting drunk on Purim? If so, go for it, but for the sake of all pedestrians and other drivers, stay out of your car.
“When everyones drinking it’s hard to stop underaged kids frum getting it.if rabbi so and so is drinking why can’t I?”
Peerimsameach – just substitute the expression “doing drugs” for “drinking” in your sentence, and you will see how incredibly wrong you are. Peer pressure will always be around. The idea is NOT to do something just ebcause everyone else is, if it’s wrong. Getting that drunk is worse than wrong. It is dangerous, and potentially life-threatening to the drinker and to others, and can cause a great Ch”H just by the drinker’s behavior being observed by other people.
Nathan21,The only thing that you wrote that was correct is that you do not know me from a hole int he wall. I have to tell you that you implied something terribly offensive. First of all, I am not overprotective of my kids. My husband and I taught them to behave responsibly, and have 5 adult children all of whom are exceptional young men and women. We are Machmir Modern Orthodox (to put a label on something, which I hate to label), so all of your assumptions are based on nothing concrete.
My sons (though not my daughters) do drink a bit on Purim, but a) they watch their alcohol intake, b) eat sufficient food along with the drink c) space the drinks and d) DO NOT EVER DRIVE, even though they rarely drink more than two drinks in a particular span of time (enough for the alcohol to be absorbed). NONE of my kids ever went off the derech, and that implication that “overprotectiveness” (as you see it)somehow causes that as a fait accompli, is insulting. It is far more likely that kids go off the derech when their parents do NOT care about them or get involved with them. When kids come home to empty houses after school and have a lot of free time on their hands with no real supervision, that is when they get into trouble. NOT when their parents teach them how to be responsible. I believe things are good in moderation, though underage kids should never be drinking because dina d’malchusah dina and it is against the law. My children are all,as I stated adults, over 21, so they can drink what they want, and they do so with maturity. Would you call a parent overprotective for teaching their child not to speed when driving?February 16, 2010 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #674728
I find this whole buisness of Dina D’Malchusa quite interesting.
First off if their is a mitzva to drink on Purim it would apply to all those who are male and over the age of thirteen, period. In a case where the law of the land say expressly that oone may not fulfill a chiyuv it is questionable to say the least if one is obligated to fulfill Dina D”Malchusa.
As for the question of “are you so makpid regarding other chiyuvim” while the point is absurd in it’s own right I would just wish to ask. Are you makpid never to Jaywalk?February 16, 2010 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #674729
“Are you makpid never to Jaywalk? “
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the answer is yes I am makpid not to jaywalk. I am a real straight arrow, and it drives my family crazy. I don’t speed, I don’t go through red lights, I come to a full stop at a stop sign, I give back the change when I am overpaid by a cashier, and so forth. I am not a tzadeikes, but I try not to make a chillul Hashem. especially in the eys of the secular world.
My question about being makpid is that some people will choose what miztvos they want tobe absolutely “makpid” to fulfill, when it has an element of the forbidden in it. SO if there seems to be a mitzvah of drinking on Purim, by all that’s holy they are GOING TO FULFILL THAT MITZVAH to the nth degree!!!!!!!!!! Are they such chassidim to giving tzedaka, getting to the minyan on time, not talking during davening,being respectful to their parents, as they are to making sure they get that drink on Purim????
I once had a very liberated (Reform, I think) married Jewish woman tell me arrogantly how insulting it was that women were not counted in a minyan or couldn’t get an aliyah at the omud. My response to her was very short and sweet. I asked her if she bensched licht on Friday night, if and when she baked bread if she took off challah and made a bracha (when necessary), and if she went to the mikveh every month? She looked at me like I was from Mars. I explained to her that there were specific mitzvahs that were given to women to fulfill, and if she could not be bothered to fulfill the ones she WAS commanded to do, why one arth was she complaining about the ones she was NOT commanded to do?
It seems so odd to me for someone to be so worried about fulfilling the ad d’lo yada “mitzvah” unless he is equally committed to and actually fulfilling the mitzvos that we are chayav in for the REST of the year. I tend to feel that Hashem is probably less concerned with one’s wild celebration of something that did not even take place in E”Y, than He is with our not causing a chillul in the eyes of the goyim and possibly breaking some of the Aseres Hadibros because some of us are too drunk to care what they are doing. JMO.February 16, 2010 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #674733
First off the ansewer you gave that Reform Lady does not really address the point and what would you ansewer the Modern Orthodox Feminists who do all the mitzvos you mentioned. It seems to me that you yourself do not really understand why a woman should not be counted in a Minyan. And if so I would highly recommend you find out the ansewer it’s not this forums place to discuss it however I assure you it’s quite relevent.
Also your feelings about what Hashem is more concerned about are really irrelevent, In fact Chazal warn us on numerous occasions not to try and decide which Mitzvos get more schar then others. In fact the reason why many say not to recite the aseres adibros each day is precisley because minim were stating the Aseres HadiBros are chalila “more” Torah then other mitzvos.
As for the crack about the fact that it did not happen in Eretz Yisroel that is patently Ludicrous first off a mitzva is a mitzva, second Purim is quite possibly a part of the mitzva of Mchiyas Amalek.
Thirdly this whole thing of making a chilul Hashem in the eyes of the goyim is quite perplexing Are we subjecting our understanding of the Torah to what is a Goy’s version of proper behavior?
As for what you state about making a chilul hashem in the eyes of the Goyim it is quitye possible a chilul Hashem in fromt of Yidden is worse.
And I would like to know which element of the forbidden is in the mitzva of drinking?February 17, 2010 3:00 am at 3:00 am #674735
To Lavdavka: how old were you when you started learning chumash, mishna, gemara?February 17, 2010 4:07 am at 4:07 am #674736
Ben Levi, your entire post is too exhausting to respond to. Clearly You are missing the point of this subject. Whether in front of Jews or non-Jews, drunken bums cause a chillul Hashem if they are JEWISH drunken bums. The feminist remark is foolish, because frum women do not feel slighted. We have our role to perform and men have theirs. Both roles are unique and necessary in an equal way, though the number of mitzvos each is required to fulfill may not be equal. It is to women’s credit that we are on a madreiga that does not need so much intervention (the doing of additional mitzvos) in order for us to attain the high level that Hashem wants us to reach.
The point I was making is that before women decide they want to do the mitzvos that MEN have to do (and they do not), let them be certain they are AT LEAST properly fulfilling the ones that they ARE responsible for themselves. And I would tell that to a modern Orthodox feminist, as well, though the term seems a bit contradictory, as a truly frum woman, modern, or not, understands what I have already stated. And if that woman is doing the mitzvos incumbent upon herself, and she wants to wear tefillin every day, as long as it is not an issur, let her do it (BUT THEN SHE HAD BETTER BE DOING IT EVERY DAY, Sunday through Friday, and not just when it is convenient, or she is a hypocrite. And if she wants to be part of a minyan, let her be part of a women’s minyan every single day, as long as it is halachically acceptable. Because if her desire is to daven in a minyan, and not merely to show the guys that she is one of them, which she is not, then she should seek out ways to do so within Torah guidelines. I would be surprised if even one reform Jewish woman who squawks about being a rabbi or davening in a men’s minyan, goes to the mikvah (k’halacha, if at all).
There is an inyan that things that happen in E”Y have more chashivus than those outside. We do not say Hallel on Purim, the events of which which took place in Persia, but we do say a full Hallel every day of Chanukah which happened in E”Y. Except for the “zecher amalek” issue and the remez of hester panim, there is no further mention of it until we read the Megillah, and HASHEM’s name does not even appear in it anywhere.
PLEASE do not try to convince me that ANYONE gets more schar mitzvah for getting drunk than for doing gemilus chassadim. Considering the trouble that so many of our youth get into in being mekayeim the mitzvah, I doubt they got too much sachar. There is no mitzvah that includes the commission of an aveira.
I guess we just need to agree to disagree.February 17, 2010 4:43 am at 4:43 am #674738
Oomis would you bother to explain the “Halachically Accepeted” ways of women forming a minyan? And how this jives with a two thousand year old mesorah of women not davening with a minyan?
Oh and while it is absurd to get into a debate about the chashivus with Purim I would note regarding your point of Hashems name not being mentioned in it that the Gra states the whenever “melech” is mentioned in the Megilla it refers to Hakodosh Boiruch Hu.
As to the fact that “Jewish Drunken Bums” are a chillul Hashem I must say on this poin we indeed Disagree I feel that the words of Chazal are more relevent then the opinions of NPR and therefore since Chazal obviously felt “Jewish Drunken Bums” are not a Chilul Hashem then that issue is settled.
Secondly again we shall have to agree to Disagree on another point Chazal state numerous times one cannot use their feelings in decideing levels of schar for a particular mitrzva you obviously disagree, again I side with Chazal.
In closing I would remind you that the Arizal did put Purim on the level of Yom KIppur (YOM KI-PURIM)regarding certain aspects of the day.February 17, 2010 4:50 am at 4:50 am #674739
Also regarding the Feminist Jewish Movement please if you don’t know what your talking about keep away from them you’ll only mess yourself up.
The Feminist Gripe is specifically the fact that there are different mitzvos given to men then women which is in their view a put down on women the mitzvos you mentioned specifically they view as especially demeaning mikvah? challah a zecher to Chava’s Chet what about Adam?
Again there are ansewers to all of these and they require a serious understanding of Jewish Hashkofa based on Learning not feelings.February 17, 2010 5:08 am at 5:08 am #674740
this argument is becoming pretty heated. oomis simply cant handle her liquor or her husband cant and maybe they had a bad experience with it so she takes it out on the rest of us normal people who ….gasp…drink on purim! or shes just sick and tired of all those “bums” who come from yeshivish homes in her neighborhood who walk around the street making a ruckus and chillel Hashem because kids from modern orthodox homes dont behave like that! i mean look at them behaving beautifully friday afternoon on central ave!February 17, 2010 9:56 am at 9:56 am #674742bombmaniacParticipant
basically i was told that the ideal is to hit the point between high and drunk, which basically rounds out to about 5 shots of whiskey of its equivalent. if you drunk, you cannot daven, and you are responsible for missing those tefilos, if you damage while drunk, you are responsible, it doesnt pay to get drunk. freilich is ok but not drunk. remember, it never says “eis la’asos l’purim, hefiru torasecha” the torah still applies on purim. the laws of chilul hashem still apply on purim. we need to be careful.February 18, 2010 12:29 am at 12:29 am #674743
I just wanted to mention to OOmis that excluding Chanuka all Yomim Tovim ar a zecher for something that happened outside of Eretz Yisroel i.e Pesach is a zecher for Yetzias Mitzrayim which happened in Eygpy a place we are forbidden to return to period!February 21, 2010 5:56 am at 5:56 am #674745
ben Levi, there are rabbonim who hold that if ten women daven together,t hey may form a minyan, and some hold they may even layn from a Sefer Torah. I do not hold by that, but there are halachic opinions that it is not assur. Note I do not say it should be done, only that there are opinions it is not assur. And while you are correct that Pesach is xecher l’Yetzias Mitzrayim, you missed the point. The Torah defines what our yomim tovim are b’feirush. Chanukah and Purim are the two exceptions, but Chanukah commemorates a neis that happened in E”Y, and Purim commemorates one that took place OUTSIDE of E”Y. Hence no Hallel is said on Purim. It is said on the shloshes regalim, because they are designated IN THE TORAH. It is said on Chanukah because it took place in E”Y. Yes Yom Kippur is Yom K’Purim, but that is an esoteric idea, meaning that the kedusha of both days is equivalent (purim because kadosh because EVEN THOUGH we are eating and drinking a bit more than normal, we STILL MAINTAIN derech eretz. Anyone can be a tzaddik when he is fasting and davening all day. But to continue to be a tzaddik even when imbibing alcohol and feasting, THAT is tzidkus.
Nathan: You clearly have already been dipping into the liquor in anticipation of Purim.
Neither my husband nor I has ever had a bad experience, as you call it, with alcohol. We are not drinkers, except for kiddush on Shabbos, and on Pesach for the arba kosos. occasionally I will have a pina colada at a simcha, if it’s served, but my husband does not indulge, as he is the designated driver. I have personally never been drunk, but I have had a buzz on once or twice, from some champagne. The fact that you feel free and easy to comment negatively in a personal way about someone’s drinking or non-drinking habits only serves to show you to be more judgmental than you seem to believe me to be. And a drunken bum IS a disgrace to Torah, there is no heter whatsoever anywhere for any jewish child to ever cause a chillul Hashem by drunken, obnoxious behavior. The fact that “modern” orthodox kids on Central Avenue may act wild and cause a ruckus on Friday afternoon, in no way excuses the awful, rowdy behavior of kids who ought to know better (by that faulty logic), because they come from more yeshivish backgrounds. If anything, they are worse, because they purport to be b’nei Torah, so their behavior is under even greater scrutiny by Jew and non-Jew alike.February 21, 2010 6:41 am at 6:41 am #674746
Oomis where these Rabbonim form their opinions from I have no idea, None of them are quote on qoute mainstream Rabbonim for a reason. Basically it’s straight out Shulchan Aruch women may not be counted for a minyan (orach chaim siman nun daled if i remember correctly)
Furthermore let me make it perfectly clear for one to take it upon themselves to rate a Yom Tov established by Chazal is naive, foolish and dangerous.
Furthermore when you continue on your diatribe against drinking on Purim please take a moment to remember that the plain meaning of the Gemora is that one is required to get drunk on Purim.
It is one thing to say that perhaps in light of certain risks in keeping with Pikuach Nefesh and other halachic principals we are required to examine alternitave shitos explaining this Gemora most of which start whith a Bais Ephraim.
However it is quite another to say the very act of drunkenness on Purim isa a Chilul Hashem. When one does such a thing they show thier barometer of proper behavior is not that which has been laid down by Chazal rather it is that of the nations in whos midst we find ourselves.
Thier can be no greater Chilul Hashem then subjecting the teachings of Chazal to the morals of the goyim.
In closing I would urge you to take heed of the words of Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsh zt’l who began his famous nineteen letters by stating firmly and clearly that when one studies the Torah one must study it as a Jew not in a dispassionate way.
So to when we study Chazal we must study it as Jews with amesorah on each and everything we do including how we celebrate Purim.February 21, 2010 8:27 am at 8:27 am #674747
“And a drunken bum IS a disgrace to Torah, there is no heter whatsoever anywhere for any jewish child to ever cause a chillul Hashem by drunken, obnoxious behavior. The fact that “modern” orthodox kids on Central Avenue may act wild and cause a ruckus on Friday afternoon, in no way excuses the awful, rowdy behavior of kids who ought to know better (by that faulty logic), because they come from more yeshivish backgrounds. If anything, they are worse, because they purport to be b’nei Torah, so their behavior is under even greater scrutiny by Jew and non-Jew alike”
the kids are not bums. they may be drunk but their not bums. they may be causing a chillul Hashem but they are so much better than those haft kids. If I had a teenage son and had a choice between if hed be drunk and making noise in the streets on Purim or whether hed be on central wearing low slung jeans, a tee shirt, no tziztis, no yarlmaka, holding hands with his girlfriend, singing some goyish rap song, who most likely doesnt keep shabbos and is most likely not shomer id pick drunk on purim. and these kids from yeshivish homes who u claim to purport to be bnei tora? trust me oomis, they know their not bnei torah and no one else does except u and your modern friend because u think everyone who is not modern and not in south shore, halb or haftr is automaticaly yeshivish and bnei torah.February 21, 2010 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #674748jphoneMember
So now kids in specific schools are being labeled as bums and such?
Where is the hetter in that? Are the moderators drunk already?
To the one who quoted R Hirsch. Does HE agree it is ok to get so drunk, to the point where you are puking your guts out and become a danger to yourself and all around you?February 21, 2010 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #674749
Jphone, I don’t know what stage of drunkenness that you refer to however I am unaware of anyplace that Rav Hirsh zt”l makes known his view of the chiyuv Ad Dilo Yudah. I am aware that the view that has been followed tradiotionaly in Yeshivos is the pashut pshat of the Gemora and Medrash (Otzer Midrashim) and advocated by the Rambam which is one is required to drink until the point of complete inebriation at which time one is potur from drinking further.
The point of complete inebriation is define as not being able to discern the difference between Arur Human and Boruch Mordechai.
Being that every single one of my Rabbeim including Gedolei Hador (one who passed away) stated as such and I personally saw many drink to that point on Purim. I personally will not be the one to break the Mesorah.February 21, 2010 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #674750
Nathan, you are officially ready for Purim. You know ABSOLUTELY nothing about me or the kind of people with whom I am close friends, but you made a really WAY off the mark judgment. So be it. And a drunken bum is a drunken bum no matter what school he attends. I live near a “black hat” Yeshivah and have seen enough to turn any R”Y’s stomach. The problem is that the R”Y does NOT remain at the Yeshivah when the bochurim are carrying on like vildeh chayos, and does not see them puking on people’s lawns or hear them honking their horns at 3 AM. Sorry, but you could not be more wrong, but that is your prerogative. Lots of people make mistakes this time of year, and call those mistakes frumkeit, when all it really is is a lack of seichel and menschlechkeit. Whatever you do, please designate another (sober) driver for yourself when you fulfill the mitzvah of ADL”Y and have to get home. And make sure you are respectful of people who did not stay out as late as you do and might have babies trying to sleep.February 21, 2010 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #674751
oomis, i went to that yeshiva for high school. let me give you some cold hard facts about it. i graduated almost 4 years ago. my twelfth grade year was the last time they made a purim mesiba in yeshiva because yes people threw up outside and they could not control it. but it is not as bad as you describe it. another thing you dont realize is they used to have the best purim mesiba in far rockaway and about fifty or sixty teens from the neighborhood but NOT from the yeshiva would come and it was mostly them throwing up outside. these teens were not from good yeshivas if in yeshiva at all. now as i said before my twelfth grade year was the last time they made the mesiba purim night. now they make it a night during the week before Purim and they do seperate ones for the high school and beis medrash and trust me both parties are very lame and maybe one or two guys drink. by the way when the mesiba was purim night which as i mentioned it hasnt been for 3 years, the rosh yeshiva was always there, the mashgiach was always there and outside kicking guys out if they were throwing up or if they werent in yeshiva. also they had one of the darchei security guys as a ‘bouncer’. this guy was massive and he made sure no alcohol was drunk on yeshivas property or allowed into the property. i saw him break guys bottles of alcohol. this doesnt mean we ddnt drink. we just drank beforehand away from the yeshiva last year me and some friends had a little party at a friends house who lives on your block and it was very menschlach. my friends mother was home (his father was niftar several yra ago) and trust me his mother is one you dont want to mess with and nothing bad went on there or in front of the houseFebruary 21, 2010 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #674752yfr802Member
im in yfr right now and i can vouch for whatver nathan said. the mesiba purim nite hasnt been goin on for 3 yrs. this is the 4th yr there will no party. last yr i collected in far rock and let me tell u there are many many guys from other yeshivas walking around the neiborhood acting drunk and making noise, doing firecrackers and just making a chillul Hashem. I saw one chevra of yfr guys who were making a chillul Hashem but it mostly guys from other neighborhood yeshivos. one of the reasons this is true is half of yfr is from brooklyn and queens and they stay there for purim. another reason is yfr’s mashgiach has older beis medrash guys drining around the neighborhood as’spies’ and tells the mashgiach if any bochurim were out making a chillul Hashem and he tells them to go home. so oomis just because u see teens near your house drunk and making chillul Hashem gives you no right to not be dan lekav zchus and assume they r from yfr especially since there is no mesiba in yfr anymore and the building is completely locked up purim night.February 22, 2010 1:04 am at 1:04 am #674753
Nathan, unless you know me personally, how do you conjecture where I live or near what Yeshivah? I do not believe I have ever said anything about where I live. Are there no Yeshivahs in towns other than Far Rockaway, or kids congregating on streets other than Central Avenue? In any case, at the Yeshivah next door to my house, it always HAS been as bad as that. Boys used to come into my backyard at 1-2 AM, light fireworks (almost caused a fire by me once, and made me fearful that there was something smoldering, which went into my roof), woke my sleeping baby who was sick and finally had gone to sleep when they carried on outside even after my husband went out several times to shoo them away and tell them to be quiet, and urinated and threw up all over the law. (One was witnessed by a neighbor who came out and said he calls the cops, and the vomit I found in the morning, along with crazy string, beer bottles, and other assorted trash.
PLEASE do not take me for a fool. Let’s asume I am in Far Rockaway and the Yeshivah has not had a mesiba for a few years. Nevertheless, by your own admission boys from out of the area congregated there, doing these things, because they knew the Yeshivah USED to have a party like that, or because they are collecting (LATE AT NIGHT?????? I don’t think so). I do not believe the R”Y was there, because I know of the R”Y from the Yeshivah you mentioned and he would not condone such behavior in or out of his Yeshivah at ANY time. I know many people from your neighborhood, and I have asked them about the so-called “bouncer” and they say this was not done until VERY recent years, because of the hundreds of complaints the R”Y received about such behavior on and near his school’s premises, possibly originating from outsiders. Were he actually present there for the duration of the entire mesiba, he would surely have recognized if strangers were invading his school and acting out. It should not take repeated complaints for several years to get the problem rectified, there or any other place.
YFR802, you are a kid, so please do not disrespect an adult who tells you what was observed by a Yeshivah in her neighborhood, whether it is yours or somewhere else, and there are a LOT of neighborhoods with Yeshivos, not only in Far Rockaway. I do NOT have to be dan l’chaf z’chus when I see such chillul being committed, and if it is committed
nearby your Yeshivah, whether or not is it committed by that yeshivah’s students, THAT yeshivah will be the one that gets the flak, especially if they already know from experience that this is likely to happen on or near their premises.February 22, 2010 1:38 am at 1:38 am #674754yfr802Member
oomis. the yeshiva does not have or has had a party in 3 years. the building is locked purim night. how much clearer do i have to be. the yeshiva has no responsibility to make sure groups of other kids from other yeshivos dont walk down frisco making noise! besides how would they accomplish this? making sure frisco is quiet purim night is not yeshivas responsibility whatsoever. they are responsible for trying to make sure their bochurim arent the ones making a ruckus on frisco or anywhere else in far rock and they do this by sending a letter to each kids parent before Purim, telling them that collecting purim night is prohibited. and yes yfr may get the flak but that doesnt mean its yfrs faultFebruary 22, 2010 1:45 am at 1:45 am #674755
Were he actually present there for the duration of the entire mesiba, he would surely have recognized if strangers were invading his school and acting out. It should not take repeated complaints for several years to get the problem rectified, there or any other place.
the mashgiach was there for the entire party and would throw anyone out if they werent in yeshiva. i said that already. this party hasnt been going on for three years and you still complain about it?! mindboggling!! if there are kids who still make noise near yeshiva its probably not yfr kids anyways and the yeshiva has no achrayus for neighborhood kids making noise in front of your houseFebruary 22, 2010 2:57 am at 2:57 am #674756asdfghjklParticipant
There is no need for personal attacks,
you know who you are!
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