Tochacha

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  • #618874
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Who wants to start giving tochacha?

    #1204301
    mik5
    Participant

    I do. Regarding what issue?

    #1204302
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I’ve tried, but moderators delete. Maybe if something else does, they won’t.

    #1204303
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Thanks for being first here.

    On whatever issue is needed

    #1204304
    Nechomah
    Participant

    You are only allowed to give tochacha to a person who is able to receive it (and hopefully do something with your constructive criticism). If not, you are not supposed to tell them anything.

    #1204305
    Joseph
    Participant

    If you’re uncertain whether or not the person will react positively to the tochacha, you’re required to give it since there’s the possibility he might correct his action after the tochacha.

    #1204306
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    This thread was inspired by a Moderator who was awesome for giving me tochacha.

    It was so thoughtful for this person to give me a heads up about how my words come across, esp since it def wasn’t my intention or in my heart to speak as such.

    I thought maybe we can kindly give tochacha to each other. Only for someone who wants it though.

    Thanks.

    LU: I’m sorry yours get deleted. Hmmm. Dunno why

    #1204307
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Maybe this is like the black sheep thread. The Mods let me post it but won’t approve of actual replies.

    I should have asked if it was permitted. Maybe too risky and not the right place.

    Thanks for trying LU and anyone else.

    The end.

    Sorry, no posts were deleted here.

    #1204308
    FuturePOTUS
    Participant

    I believe that there are three requirements for any situation to warrant tochacha:

    1) The person giving tochacha has to genuinely care about the wellbeing and situation of the one he is giving it to, and the person receiving it has to both know that, and fully reciprocate that feeling. If he doesn’t then the person will not receive it properly, let alone at all, as he will feel the person has no business rebuking him and is a mere annoyance.

    2) There has to be a safe environment when it is given. This is especially important when it is an authority figure giving the tochacha. If the receiver doesn’t feel safe, if he thinks he would get in some trouble or if he doesn’t listen the relationship he has will go down the drain, his primary focus will be ensuring that those things don’t happen, not the tochacha, and he will pay the message no attention.

    3) The person giving tochacha has to know the full situation of the person and the general mindset that person has. Without this, it could lead to extremely embarrassing mistakes, could cause the person to take offense, and the person giving it simply won’t know if other factors are at play, thereby rendering his mussar irrelevant and therefore hurtful.

    #1204309
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Lol Moderators no need to apologize for not deleting ?

    I’m sorry for thinking that you deleted here. I misunderstood and doubted.

    #1204310
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Thanks FuturePOTUS. I need to work on not giving unsolicited advice.

    In some cases, it is hard to see someone being self-destructive and not saying something. I feel like I am an enabler.

    But the flipside is that hurting the person may lead to more pain and more acting out.

    Another area that I find difficult is when someone says something very degrading about another person and not saying anything. All attempts in various manners end up in anger and/or defense and/or then get turned into a personal attack.

    In such a case, assuming that it is as simple as such, does Torah really support saying and doing nothing?

    Letting the person think he or she is right without resistance?

    I feel like that goes against standing up for injustice. Or am I mixing in secular views here?

    #1204311
    FuturePOTUS
    Participant

    lightbrite: If your relationship is close enough that you feel you’re enabling the person, then chance are you may meet the three conditions. With people I know that I’m not close with at all that I see involved with self-destructive behavior, it may pain me to a degree that they are doing what they’re doing, but I recognize that giving tochacha simply won’t help the situation because it simply won’t be received.

    You raise a good point with that, and I realize I have to clarify. If someone is bullying someone, humiliating someone, or hurting someone else, then it’s not a matter of the person hurting someone else, it’s a matter of someone being hurt. In such a case it would be a travesty for bullying or other such behavior (or even something as ‘minor’ as certain degrees of lashon hara) to be allowed to continue without interference, and a person standing by should stand up for what is right and protest such behavior, not in terms of tochacha, but as a means to protest interpersonal destructive behavior, not allow such a thing to continue, and to avoid hurting people.

    There are things that are so horrible (speaking of other things) that someone has to, at a certain point, stand up and give an unequivocal no, not for the sake of tochacha, but to avoid, like you said, not standing up for justice (i.e. discussing inappropriate topics in a public setting). The problem with this is that it’s hard to draw the line about what should be protested and what shouldn’t, and it is often taken too far. One has to know, and if (s)he has a significant doubt if objections should be raised, they often shouldn’t.

    #1204312
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Thank you FuturePOTUS for clarifying

    #1204313
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    wow, 13 posts and no one yet has given any actual tochacha. Should I give some tochacha about how it is not nice to ignore the OP’s request? 😉

    #1204314

    most of the tochacha i have given on the web versus face to face goes in vain, mostly due to the generation we are living in today of not being able to admit to our loving father Hashem that we all need to wake up & face reality.

    one thing we can all admit to is: “there is no such thing as coincidence” so when tragedies strike non-stop R”L why don’t we each ask ourselves why is Hashem putting so much tzaros on us & getting worse from tragic to horrific R”L?

    The honest answer through a parable is that when a child will not listen to his/her parent then sometimes the parent has no choice but to punish his child for the childs good so s/he can learn from their mistakes & improve their ways so next time they listen & never make the same mistake again.

    From this i can give you the HONEST TOCHACHA that when we are hit with non-stop tragedies & still don’t face reality by admitting to Hashem that we need to wake up to do teshuva, then i am not surprised there is so much tzaros R”L. (should a doctor be surprised that his patient is still sick if he won’t listen to his doctor & take the prescribed medicine? does the doctor have any reason to feel bad? whose fault is it that the patient is still sick? the doctor-Hashem in this case-or the patient-klal yisroel?) First we need to do teshuva & then if it continues then something is wrong.

    may we all finally wake up & do teshuva very soon so mashiach can finally come.

    may this tochacha be a positive step to help us return to the right path to Hashem

    #1204315
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB – I didn’t mean that my deleted posts were on this thread. They had been written on another thread shortly before you started this thread. I was assuming that if wrote them here, they would be deleted as well.

    In any case, would you like the honor of giving tochacha? I would be interested in hearing what you have to say.

    #1204316
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    MA – maybe it would help if you were more specific instead of just talking about doing teshuva?

    Also, when one gives tochacha, it can be very difficult to give it in a way that doesn’t sound like you think you are better than everyone else, but it is important to try to do so. If you do, people are more likely to listen.

    #1204317

    LU

    Every word i wrote i am talking to myself also,

    regarding what i am referring to in teshuva

    1)from the sinas chinam (baseless hatred) today in klal yisroel being worse then the days of the 2nd bais Hamikdosh that was destroyed because of it R”L. How can we expect the bais Hamikdosh to come if we still have not done teshuva & fixed the issue of why it was destroyed?

    2)if klal yisroel was one loving nation today -on all levels from frum to frei to chasidish etc…- then we wouldnt lack “nosei b’ol” feeling the pain of your brothers…. lets be honest what really happens to %95 of us when tragedy strikes R”L we ask what does hashem want from me i don’t even know leiby Kletzsky or another tragedy R”L? almost everyone today throws it beyond their shoulder & forgets about it without caring for their own brother. WHEN IN TRUTH IN THE BACK OF OUR MINDS we get the wake-up call from hashem for teshuva but we can’t confess & admit to our loving father that we get his tragic wake-up call message & we will start doing teshuva

    to help you wake up to a reality example: today most parents with problem children R”L %75 percent of them, both parents will say its not so bad at least he’s still passing his tests… by the time hes 13 hes going to be such a problem child R”L WHY? cause the parents couldn’t admit to themselves that we have a problem child & we need to do something about it NOW WHEN HES ONLY 5 years old before it gets worse.

    3)many other things we need to do public teshuva as a nation together. sadly too many to list AND YES EVERYTHING WRITTEN INCLUDES ME. i need to do teshuva too, as i am right now in the midst of a taanis teshuva today

    stop the tzaros today before it gets worse C”V

    #1204319
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    tradegies were always part of the jewish community. In fact in most shuls more people were saying Kaddish than not , so they had to limit the number of people saying Kaddish

    The difference is today we have “instant news” so we know about something that happens in another part of the world almost instantanious.

    In prior generations do you really think the jews of Pressburg knew that a small baby died in Bagdad? Of course not, Tradgities are actually less today than they were in previous generations

    #1204320
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Regardless of whether or not there are more tragedies now than there were a few hundred years ago (which can probably be debated forever since it would be hard to prove one way or another), whenever there are tragedies, we are not supposed to take it for granted and say that it’s always been like this; we are supposed to take it as a wake-up call and see what we can do to improve. That is what they did hundreds of years ago, and that is what we are supposed to do now.

    #1204321
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    MA – I think it’s great that you are trying to do teshuva and to encourage others to do so as well. However, I still don’t think you are being very specific. Also, I wonder if it would accomplish more if we tried seeing the positive in Am Yisrael (and yes, I do mean that for myself as well).

    I hope you don’t mind my saying these things. You were complaining that your words don’t have an effect, so I am trying to find ways that they can be more effective.

    #1204322
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    The Chofetz Chaim said about a earthquake in Asia, that it is a chisaron in emunah not to understand that this is a message for Klal Yisroel.

    Apparently in this generation we are not getting the message and thus we have to get the instantaneous messages from anywhere in the world about tragedies that we can identify with, in order to get a message.

    And these are tragedies because times have changes and these terrible occurrences are out of the realm of our regular thinking.

    #1204323
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    As I’ve stated on these boards before, I don’t give tochacha.

    The Wolf

    #1204324
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There was an Earhtquake today in Ecuador, 5.8 magnitude and 2 people died

    How many people even know about it

    #1204325
    FuturePOTUS
    Participant

    A problem with internalizing all these tragedies is that there are so many of them, we can’t take them all to heart because it would kill us.

    #1204326

    future

    if we started to just take a few to heart and do sincere teshuva about it THEN ALL TRAGEDIES WOULD COME TO A HALT & WE WOULD NOT NEED TO TAKE ANY MORE TO HEART.

    one thing forgot to mention earlier is the famous line “ain poraneius baolam ela bshvil yisroel” there are no tragedies in the world except on the account of klal yisroel. i.e. even if there are no yidden involved in the tragedy. like just occurred today in Berlin killing & injuring many.

    #1204327
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Wolf – I think you should start. I would like to hear what you have to say. It’s the people who don’t want to give tochacha who probably should be.

    #1204328
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft – +1

    I also want to point out according to Rav Orlofsky, Rav Moshe Shapiro stated after 9/11 that it was part of milchemes Gog u’Magog. That is certainly a new occurrence.

    In general, our Gedolim have been telling us that we are in the time period before Mashiach. We are certainly closer to Mashiach than any other generation has ever been before. We have witnessed unusual Nissim in our times, Nissim the likes of which have probably not been seen in hundreds of years (to my knowledge). Whether or not there are more tragedies today than in times past, Yad Hashem has certainly been more visible than It has been in the past.

    There are constant nissim in EY! I don’t think we are even aware of how many planned attacks fall through, and how many missiles have fallen over the years, miraculously hitting no one. The wars that have been won, and the fact that Am Yisrael is thriving in Eretz Yisrael despite being surrounded on all sides by those who wish to destroy us.

    There have been outright miracles during the wars, miracles that have not been publicized or internalized as much as they should be. People complain that there are no miracles today, so how can they have Emunah? We are constantly surrounded by outright miracles – Antebbe, the 6-day War, etc. There were nissim g’luim during the wars that even the goyim were aware of!

    If we have a hard time focusing on the tragedies, let us focus on the love Hashem shows us through His constant nissim and use that as a wake-up call to remind us that He is ready and waiting to bring Mashiach if we just take one small step forward. That is all it takes.

    #1204329
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    MA

    I posted yesterday about the Earhtquake in Equador, Today there was an Earthquake in the Solomon Islands. Likely you never heard of either (Only a google search turned them up) Exactly how are these events on account of Klal Yisroel.

    These events were not really major news story and only came up by googling and werent even covered by US news media.

    Im sure if you google almost any disaster one will come up within the last 24 hours somewhere in the world

    #1204330
    Joseph
    Participant

    Wolf is Berditchiver. In everything he sees people do, he only sees good.

    #1204331
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Maybe that’s our tochacha – that we should learn from him and try to be like him.

    …????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??????

    #1204333
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    Not sure what you are saying.

    Are you arguing with the ??? ????? He said that we have to learn from such occurrences.

    Are you arguing with the many ????? ???? that nothing happens in the world ??? ????? ?????? (Which is where the ??? ???? was forming his comment from).

    Or, perhaps you were just reaffirming what I was saying, that we have become desensitized to these messages and now we get instantaneous messages of tragedies within our own communities?

    But you are saying that these are everyday occurrences, and not messages! What type of messages do you want us to get? They are unfortunately messages arlready that tear at the hearts of normal feeling Jews. Oy how much harsher messages do you want us to get?

    #1204334

    ZD

    see now your living in denial & trying to turn your face away From Hashem cause were not brave enough yet to confess to our loving father hashem & think we can fool Hashem. but Hashem knows the truth that we get his wake-up call message for teshuva

    “if a person thinks he can fool Hashem-in anything-he is the fool.

    #1204335

    LU

    read this link to get the messages of 9/11 from Hashem

    Relating the Tisha B'av message from Hashem in Today's generation

    yes 9/11 is Tisha B’av. how does that shock you? was an electric shock to me when message came from Shomayim after 9/11/2001 hit the world

    read the rest of the message on the link

    #1204337
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am saying tradgeties happend before and nobody never even knew about, Today I can google and I can find out about the latest tragedy.

    Do your really think Hashem was warning jews to do tshuva about some earthquake somewhere in the middle of Pacific that nobody even knew about? Some of these earthquakes we only know about them.

    In 1908 a comet or some other extra terrestrial object hit in the middle of Sibera (Its called the Tunguska event) the exact details were not exactly known at the time and more information was not discovered until the 1920’s, when some exploration was able to be done in the area and much more is not known. How many Gedolim wrote about this event at the time it happend and told us to do tshuva for it.

    #1204338
    Meno
    Participant
    #1204339
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So maybe the only events which are supposed to bring us to teshuvah are the ones we find out about.

    #1204340
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    I know Mashiach Agent’s posts are satire; however, I feel the need to point out a critical distinction between what the Chofetz Chaim said and the parody here. The Chofetz Chaim’s words are instructions for how we should respond upon hearing about tragedies. The fact that we heard about it is meaningful, and we should take meaningful action as a response. This is very different from playing prophet and purporting to know Hashem’s reasons for any given tragedy. Not even Moshe Rabbeinu achieved that level of prophecy (????????? ??? ??????? ??????? ??? ???????). Also, I find the portrayal of Hashem’s dealings with us as a tit-for-tat dangerously mistaken, even in jest.

    #1204341
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    I don’t believe that we can interpret Hashem’s ways like this.

    Hashem is so good. I don’t believe that Hashem is punishing the world or us in such ways. He could get us to do teshuvah without having to suffer. G-d is so powerful.

    Are we not limiting his awesomeness by believing that we know why things happen?

    The Lubvitcher Rebbe spoke about the Holocaust:

    “In his writings and discussions on the subject, the Rebbe rejected all theological explanations for the Holocaust.

    What greater conceit — the Rebbe would say — and what greater heartlessness, can there be than to give a “reason” for the death and torture of millions of innocent men, women and children?

    Can we presume to assume that an explanation small enough to fit inside the finite bounds of human reason can explain a horror of such magnitude?

    We can only concede that there are things that lie beyond the finite ken of the human mind.

    Echoing his father-in-law, the Rebbe would say: It is not my task to justify G?d on this.

    Only G?d Himself can answer for what He allowed to happen.

    And the only answer we will accept, said the Rebbe, is the immediate and complete Redemption that will forever banish evil from the face of the earth and bring to light the intrinsic goodness and perfection of G?d’s creation.” (Chabad)

    #1204342
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Expanding on Avram in MD’s post, if one feel drawn to search Google for natural disasters and tragedies, the appropriate response to becoming aware of these events would be take them to heart and have at a minimum a hirhur of teshuva.

    It should not , C’V, be used as reason to say “these are regularly occurring, thus it is clear that Hashem does not send messages to Klal Yisroel”

    I do not profess to know why certain occurrences happen, however, a hirhur of teshuva is certainly appropriate for everyone, as it says “Ein Tzadik Bo’oretz Asher Yaseh Tov V’loh Yechtah.”

    #1204343
    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram, the Tosfos Yom Tov told us that Tach V’tat was a punishment for talking in shul, Rav Shach and Rav Avigdor Miller told us the Holocaust was a punishment for the assimilation and Reform in Europe. And both before and since various gedolim have identified various tragedies as a punishment for specific sins.

    #1204344
    Joseph
    Participant

    In a famous letter the Chofetz Chaim himself attributed tragedies in his generation to a decline in tznius.

    #1204346
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Nishtdayngesheft & Joseph: +1

    Nishtdayngesheft, I like this line in particular: “Expanding on Avram in MD’s post, if one feel drawn to search Google for natural disasters and tragedies, the appropriate response to becoming aware of these events would be take them to heart and have at a minimum a hirhur of teshuva”

    #1204347
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rav Avigdor Miller is not the final Posek on the causes of the holocaust, many including the Lubavicher Rebber disagree with him

    “Expanding on Avram in MD’s post, if one feel drawn to search Google for natural disasters and tragedies, the appropriate response to becoming aware of these events would be take them to heart and have at a minimum a hirhur of teshuva”

    Saying we are all sinners and need to do tshuva sounds very similar to a philosophy of a relgion started by a man whose big birthday bash is coming up this weekend

    #1204348
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Those are good points, however, I still see a world of difference between the words and intentions of the Tosfos Yom Tov, Rav Avigdor Miller, the Chofetz Chaim, and other gedolim and Torah leaders, and the parody above.

    Mashiach Agent careened between two contradictory metaphors, and the second one (the doctor with the patient not following the treatment plan) was offensive. I disagree with his rhetorical question suggesting that Hashem might CV”S be callous to Jewish suffering: does [He] have any reason to feel bad? How would he know what Hashem thinks? Would Rav Miller ever have said something like that about Hashem?

    I also object strongly to the lashon hara he spoke about the Jewish people: suggesting that almost all of us simply threw news of the murder of a child over our shoulder and didn’t care about our brother. That he is “not surprised” that we are beset by tragedies [because we’re such a rotten nation in his eyes after all]. What would the Chofetz Chaim have said about such words and implications hurled at the holy nation?

    #1204349
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Saying we are all sinners and need to do tshuva sounds very similar to a philosophy of a relgion started by a man whose big birthday bash is coming up this weekend

    #1204350
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    Saying we are all sinners and need to do tshuva sounds very similar to a philosophy of a relgion started by a man whose big birthday bash is coming up this weekend

    +1 to DaasYochid’s response. The “we are all sinners” philosophy is not where the birthday bash religion errs. Rather, their philosophy states that teshuva is worthless, and man must therefore accept their avoda zara in order to be “saved” from eternal torment that is due to man for even the tiniest transgression.

    The Torah teaches us that Hashem accepts our teshuva lovingly and desires that we come close to him, and that work is meaningful even if we are imperfect creatures. And that Hashem is fair in judgement, not a sadistic tormentor.

    #1204351
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Avrum and DY +1

    ZD: I agree that you can probably disagree with Rav Avigdor Miller, Zatsal (at least I think so); but you can’t disagree with the Chafetz Chaim, zatsal, or Rav Shach, zatsal, or the Tosfos YomTov zatsal.

    Even regarding Rav Avigdor Miller,zatsal, while you may disagree with him regarding the reason he gives for the holocaust, he obviously was “allowed” to give a reason or he would not have done so (saying otherwise would be a condemnation of him as a person as opposed to a disagreement with his opinion).

    In any case, there are enough other sources of the concept.

    #1204352
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Torah teaches us that Hashem accepts our teshuva lovingly and desires that we come close to him, and that work is meaningful even if we are imperfect creatures. And that Hashem is fair in judgement, not a sadistic tormentor.

    According to some here, Every event, no matter where it is, is a message from hashem we should do tshuva, and my whole point was Its not so and cannot be so , especially nowdadys when we hear about the latest events almost instantanious from places we never heard of and cannot easily find on the map without help

    #1204353
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Avrum in MD – I think you belong in my thread. (btw, whenever I see your name, I think that you are a doctor.)

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