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How can someone be too yeshivish? Wherever you are in life good for you. How can it be too extreme?
How can someone be too yeshivish? Wherever you are in life, good for you.
You are correct.
Either way, what exactly does “Yeshivish” mean? And does too much of it mean they attended too many yeshivos?
Whenever criticism is offered in an abstract way, where a behavior is not criticized on its own, rather the whole person is being criticized, I dismiss it. Each person must be seen on their own (in a case where it is our job to judge. When it isn’t..). People use code words when their critique lacks proper merit.
“too yeshivish” (or “too anything”) can be a negative.
Sometimes, people miss the forest for the trees. This often happens to younger people who are still solidifying their hashkafa.
This often happens to younger people who are still solidifying their hashkafa
Alternatively, there are adults who restrain their capable kids from shooting for the stars because of their own cynicism.
their is no such thing as long as u have torah with it
IMHO, there are two different parts to yeshivish. The first one is halachic yeshish; spending excessive time learning, keeping many chumros, etc. Not only don’t I see anything wrong with this, but it think it’s a very good an praiseworthy thing.
Then there’s the culutral yeshivish; a certain mode of speech, dress, etc. While I do not see anything wrong with this, I can understand why some people might not like it in excess.
spending excessive time learning
What exactly does “excessive” mean?
I, probably among many many others, disagree with your definition of Yeshivish.
each to his own
TBT:
You’re right, I just meant spends alot of time learning.
“I, probably among many many others, disagree with your definition of Yeshivish.”
OK… what’s your definition?
“Wherever you are in life good for you.”
HUH?? Is that Qabbalah? I haven’t the foggiest idea what you’re talking about?
Ok.
I thought about this a little bit. You are trying to say that yishivish equals tzadik and the more you got the bigger tzadik you are. Therefore you ask “How can it be bad to be the biggest tzaddik? More Olam Haba. Yay!”
The problem here is the premise. Yeshivish does not equal Tzaddik.
Yeshivish equals appearance of Tzaddik. There is no problem with appearance of tzaddik if the appearance matches the level you are on.
There are many problems related to this which may include but are not limited to: Sheker to yourself, sheker to others, gaavah, and the problems and sub-problems contained therein.
The Mesilas Yesharim disagrees with you. “Hachtzonios meorrer es hapenimios”
If you wear your brim down (in middle of the week) and fail to notice that 99% of the other guys have theirs up, you are too yeshivish! (not too, as in execssive; too as in too funny!)
truth be told
To answer your question we might want to examine the gemara on 28a of brachos which says that Rabban Gamliel wouldn’t let anyone into the bais medrash if he was not “???? ?????”.
Perhaps the distinction is that the MY is talking about actually doing the mitzva instead of just outward appearance. The MY is saying that by doing it you will want to do it.
Yeshivish is outwardly appearing as someone who does Tzaddik stuff.
Yeshivish is outwardly appearing as someone who does Tzaddik stuff.
Yeshivish is outwardly appearing as Jewish, as Jews have always dressed differently than others.
Fistly how do you know that they always dressed differently?
Secondly, Dressing differently is not the same thing as having a uniform. (my proof is jewish womens dress today even by the yeshivish is not absolutely uniform.)
Thirdly Yeshivish is about alot more than dress. Outward appearance includes actions being done for what it looks like you are doing to yourself or others.
As for outwardly appearing jewish, nobody thinks my yarmulke means I’m a Catholic minister.
how do you know that they always dressed differently?
Lo shinu es malbusham.
To answer your question we might want to examine the gemara on 28a of brachos which says that Rabban Gamliel wouldn’t let anyone into the bais medrash if he was not “???? ?????”.
#2, you may want to remember that on the day that when Rebbi Elozer ben Azaria became Nossi, and abolished this rule, many many benches were added to the Beis hamidrash.
There are many many Mishnaios and halochos that were established “Bo BaYom” – which means the day REBA abolished the rule. how many Mishnaios, Midrashim, gemoros, Rishonim etc etc and learning forever was accomplished when that rule was abolished?!
If it proves anything, it proves precisely the opposite of your assertion.
my rebbeim always said that “chitsonios meorrer es hapnimious” only works if you are close to the madrega you are acting out. acting like a madrega way above you may just be gaava, fooling yourself, etc
mexipal: How is that related to the discussion at hand?
Clairvoyant,
I understand mexipal to say that one can dress too yeshivish if it’s nowhere near one’s real level.
there are two different parts to yeshivish. The first one is halachic yeshish; spending excessive time learning, keeping many chumros, etc. Not only don’t I see anything wrong with this, but it think it’s a very good an praiseworthy thing.
I see keeping many chumrot as a problem if it’s on the backs of others.
k but most emontionally stable peoples chummros arent on the backs of others. many peoples problems with other people chummros stem for there own ego….
MDG: Specifically, how does one “dress too yeshivish”?
Ok i’m back hmmm whos first?
Clairvoyant
If what you originally meant by your first statement was that they always had a different standard of dress than the goyim, then your second statement would be relevant in that they didnt change that standard. I can hardly imagine it means they wore the same pair of pants every day like some yeshivish people might do.
Truth be told
#1 The relevance is the aveira of pretending to be something that you’re not
#2 It proves exactly my point seeing as the reason he abolished the rule was because he held that even people yeshivish beyond their level are allowed to learn torah. I never disputed that point.
Clair,
If it’s beyond their level, yuhara.
Bar Shattya:
You’re becoming incomprehensible to me. Please re-write your point, in a way that all the questions have been answered. Thank you
If it’s beyond their level, yuhara.
We cannot concoct issurim or even suggest “yuhara”. We need a component posek to do so. Otherwise we are responsible to be mehader Mitzvos and our observance..
I see keeping many chumrot as a problem if it’s on the backs of others.
k but most emontionally stable peoples chummros arent on the backs of others. many peoples problems with other people chummros stem for there own ego….
Good point as well
Truth be told
The gemara says that rabban gamliel did not let talmidim who were not tocho kboro in the bais medrash and reb elazar ben azaria did let them in. this esulted in more torah learning.
tocho kboro translated means inside like outside.
With my gemara learning training to back me up i suggest that the amoraim did not argue as to the evil of not being tocho kboro, but rather they argued as too whetger such a person should be allowed in the bais medrash.
On a previous point i was thinking about chitzonios meorer es hapnimios and i think that this itself is what causes that which i said in my original (civil) post meaning the following: When a person acts like they enjoy doing something that will affect their perception of themselves and they will enjoy it. (mesilas yesharim) When a person acts like a tzaddik they will end up thinking they are a tzaddik which will not change what they actually are for the better. (Me)
With my gemara learning training to back me up i suggest that the amoraim did not argue as to the evil of not being tocho kboro, but rather they argued as too whetger such a person should be allowed in the bais medrash.
On the day they did open the doors, and another several hundred came in, some amazing things were accomplished in one day! There was not a single sofek left. Everything was clarified on that day.
How can allowing “evil” people in merit these accomplishments?
Even Rabbon Gamliel didn’t consider it evil. He just didn’t allow them into the Beis Midrash together with which holy Tanoim who were able to revive the dead. Let them learn elsewhere until they reach the level of “tocho kebaro”, and then come join.
tbt
it seems you asked two questions requiring two answers.
Firstly learning torah is a powerful thing even when done by reshaim. One rayah to this may be from the mesilas yesharim which says that ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????.
You then suggest the people werent really evil. It appears to me that you are suggesting an alternative pshat which is not pashut pshat for what seems like no reason at all except your first question.
I however dont think your first question is much of a question and would rather learn as the gemara appears to be saying at first glance.
Bar Shattya:
You are the one deviating from the poshet pshat.
????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????. was said by Hashem when He was “forced” to destroy the Beis hamikdash. It finishes off “hameor sheboh yachzirom” – the light in it would have brought them back to good – Had they learnt, they would have eventually repented.
By Rabbon Gamliel, the moment they entered the beis midrash, in the same state they were, all these great things came about.
It is clear that it is not a state of evilness, rather a lack of reaching a certain level of holiness.
Pashut pshat in the gemara in brachos is definitely that the peope were bad. I think this is forced by the premise that we dont kick people out of the bais medrash for not reaching the highest of the high. Perhaps you would try to say that that is exactly why reb elazar disagreed but i think that makes it harder to defend rabban gamliel who was a very smart man and worthy of our defense.
As for the halevai thing, that i brought just as a rayah to the power of torah
BS: How is it that as soon as these “evil” people entered the Beis Midrash so much good came about becaues of them? They were obviously not evil. Evil people cause the shechinah to leave, not Give and Teach them much more.
Rabbon Gamliel wanted them to learn elswhere, in other Botei Midrash, perffect themselves there and then enter. Isn’t that similar to the practice of many Yeshivos for older bochurim, that one needs a certain level before being admitted.
The ??? ??? on ????? ?? says that the animals which have only one sign of kashrus are actually worse than the animals which have none.
He says that their one sign actually adds tumaa, since they now have the extra element of not being ???? ????.
???.
He also references the midrash about esav that he was like the pig who shows himself as if he is tahor.
He concludes that people who show themselves as tzadikim when they are not are worse than a rasha gamur.
So I think I’m going to have to side with BS that it is a bad thing. I’m not exactly sure how this impacts specific behaviors which we are talking about.
??? ??? ????? ??? ??
?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???. ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??, ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???, ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????. ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ???? )?????? ??? ?? ?( ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????, ??? ????? ??”? ?? ???? )?????? ?? ?( ??? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??????…
I also have no idea what BS is talking about….. seems like there is a hidden meaning to his name
IMHO, there are two different parts to yeshivish. The first one is halachic yeshish; spending excessive time learning, keeping many chumros, etc. Not only don’t I see anything wrong with this, but it think it’s a very good an praiseworthy thing.
Then there’s the culutral yeshivish; a certain mode of speech, dress, etc. While I do not see anything wrong with this, I can understand why some people might not like it in excess.
mw- i agree with what you wrote. i also believe that some people don’t like the 2nd, but the 2nd is like you said, cultural, like the Amish. it’s not a statement as to how much yiras shamayim they have or how much they learn, but it does serve a function. it keeps these guys – some of whom may not be able to learn 12 hours a day, under the realm of good peer pressure. meaning, because of cultural and/or peer pressure, these guys do not watch movies, talk to girls, see things they shouldn’t be seeing, etc.
and as for both groups, people tend to think that both groups should have perfect middos. that is, if they dress and talk yeshivish and/or if they learn a lot, they should already be perfect. that would be nice. but shouldn’t people who don’t have the best of middos also learn. maybe through their learning (and from my understanding, this is so), their middos improves. so, they may be far from perfect; but, could be, that that same person if he became a lawyer instead of learning, would have even worse middos.
Truth be told, Derech HaMelech and others, some ma’amorei Chazal to consider:
“Chasid-shote is one of the mavlei(one who wears down, destroys) olam”;
“Any Talmid Chacham who has no deya, a piece of neviela is better than him”;
“Hamegale panim be’torah shelo ke’Halocha has no helek le’Olam HaBa” (something some too-Yeshivish people engage in — by trying to turn chumros into hiyuvim).
PBA:
Bar Shattya:
I had no intention of mocking (as another poster did) when I abbreviated your name. Was rushing. I apologize though (since I see someone else used it to mock).
mdd:
You may quote as many ma’amorei Chazal as you choose. It doesn’t make any of them relevant. Since its difficult for me to understand, please, if you have coherent argument, clarify it. Thank you
TBT:
Like I said, I don’t really know how to apply these ideas to specific behaviors.
Certainly someone should strive to emulate tzadikim. I guess we need to ask when we are emulating them to improve ourselves, and when it is to improve our image.
Although, like you note, the chitzoniyos are meorer the pnimiyos. So that needs to fit in somewhere also.
pba: the example of eisav and the pig, is that they purposely try to deceive others. presumably, someone who dresses yeshivish is not trying to pretend they are more frum than they are, but rather they are striving to be like that or culturally, they were born into such a society, and like the chassidish – this is what people in that society dress and talk like.
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