- This topic has 46 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 3 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Right-wing protest? Excuse me, but shouldn’t we all be concerned, regardless of our political ideology, when frum boys are arrested, tortured, deprived of their basic rights, and detained in unidentified cells indefinitely? Please do something! Daven, say tehilim, or if you live here, complain to your MK.
What are the names for Tehillim?
Are you talking about the case where an Arab couple and their child was murdered?
What are they accused of?
after davening for the boys we must daven for the collapse of this treifa thing called the medina and daven so that Jews serving in its Hellenist forces do teshuva and quit, the best iron dome is the beis medrash.
Karlbenmarx (very appropriate – see “On the Jewish Question”), so you support Arab terror? As for the best iron dome being the bet midrash why do they run away from any city on which a missile falls, not to mention the mass exodus of chutznikim when the first Gulf War started.
which case are we talking about?
I don’t believe this going on! How could anybody support this country?!? Where is the PM? Where are the “Frum” parties?
Even if they are guilty – they have No right to torture kids or even anybody!
Thank you, will do. May Hashem send them a ????? ?????.
There are two sides to every story and the Shabbak knows more about these things than we do. That said, hopefully no one is wrongfully incarcerated and that anyone who is is released speedily.
Sam 2 -“There are two sides to every story and the Shabbak knows more about these things than we do.”
There’s No two sides! Your defense of Israel, is like the Holocaust denials. Even if they are guilty – they have No right to torture kids or even anybody! And how many are guilty – 1 or 2? But how many are in jail – 8?!?
The only reason the world is not up in arms, like they did in the US torture in the Iraqi jail, is because it’s only Jews!!!
Can we please all stop with the Hitler and Holocaust comparisons?
Shabbak are left-wingers who hate the religious.
Health, they forgot to ask you for permission. Some people should stop pretending that the state of Israel does not exist.
Except that the director of Shabak, Yoram Cohen, is a frum Jew.
Mdd -“Health, they forgot to ask you for permission.”
What are you talking about? I wouldn’t give permission to torture anybody.
“Some people should stop pretending that the state of Israel does not exist.”
So they allow torture, to prove that they are real?!?
They can’t claim that they are the only democracy in the middle east, when they allow torture and then cover it up!
Health: There is no real information coming out. There are rumors. No one has admitted to torturing these boys and, as far as I have seen, none of them are claiming to be tortured right now. If it’s true, then it’s certainly a horrible thing. I just don’t know if it’s true.
Sam 2 -“Health: There is no real information coming out. There are rumors.”
Of course there is no real info coming out – there in solidarity confinement! Only recently they were allowed to meet with their lawyers.
“No one has admitted to torturing these boys”
Do you really think that the ISA will admit to this?!?
There needs to be an independent investigation!
Health, who could carry out this investigation? Who would qualify as independent?
Matan 1 -“Who would qualify as independent?”
That’s a silly question! I’m not a lawyer, but I’m sure if they looked hard enough they could find one that both the right & left agreed on him/her. Maybe a former judge or prosecutor?
There is a tremendous machloket regarding what actually happened during the interrogations. Their lawyers and the rav of their community claim that they were tortured but a string of right-wing politicians who saw classified information claim that they were not and, moreover, they were literally plotting to foment a revolution. A list of rabbanim signed a petition demanding an investigation and another list signed a petition supporting the Shabach. BTW, Mar Zutra the Chassid also applied what the Israeli Supreme Court (Bagatz) has termed “moderate physical pressure” (Baba Metzia 24a – and see Sheeta Mekubetzet) in order to extract a confession:
To dbrim:
The proper names for the areas you mention are Yehuda and the Shomron. People living here do not refer to these areas as “the shtachim.” They are not territories, they are part of both E”Y and M”Y.
Avi K -“There is a tremendous machloket regarding what actually happened during the interrogations. Their lawyers and the rav of their community claim that they were tortured but a string of right-wing politicians who saw classified information claim that they were not”
Now that there is a difference as to what happened – the more it’s needed an independent investigation! Avi, do you have a problem with that?
Or do you believe that you can’t ever question the Medina?!?
Health, I have no problem whatsoever. However due to my humility and modesty I am waiting for a phone call and the third request after I turn down the first two.
They just released one boy or about to, the family confirmed about the torture!
Now all you Zionists – keep on buying your Israeli bonds.
This proves what has been proven again and again – that israel is a corrupt, and evil country
They beat bochurim in geulah
A friend of mine was at a demo in t a when police asked him randomly which finger they should break
He thought it was a joke but they suddenly snapped his middle finger
They abuse Ethiopian Jews
Nearly half the country lives in poverty and yet they manipulate and manage to be considered by un as developed country
They allow hat hazeitim and other cemeteries to be vandalised
They permit terrorists to be employed as bus drivers, builders , doctors and many other professions
This is what happens when apikorsim try to run out holy land
YWN news -From the Deputy AG:- “I spoke with the Duma defendants. Needless to say there is quite a discrepancy with what their attorneys tell and what I heard when I met with them. They were not strapped to beds as described by many, as it is in the interest of their attorneys to exaggerate the evidence to draw attention to the work.”
Mr. Deputy – Why didn’t you investigate that the Duma arson was done by Arabs? Why do you think the lawyers are lying? Do they have record of lying? Why do you think that they would be strapped to their beds, when a deputy AG is coming to visit?!?
Crawley,
You write like some anti-Semitic blogger.
1. The bachurim in Geula were rioting (and davka against their own neighborhood). Why weren’t they in seder if they are such big learners?
2. Nonsense. Ethiopian Jews in fact are beneficiaries of affirmative action.
3. How do you define poverty? Except for the mentally ill the poverty described in the Gemara does not exist here. If you want to make things even better come and open a business.
4. More nonsense. Those professionals are not the ones engaging in terrorist activities.
5. Since when are you and your ilk running the country?
Health,
There were signs, such as Hebrew graffiti, that it was done by Jews. One of the young men in administrative detention put out papers describing this and other measures to be taken in an attempt to forcibly overthrow the governmental system.
Avi K -“Health, There were signs, such as Hebrew graffiti, that it was done by Jews.”
It’s been proven that many times the Arabs do that to throw off the investigators!
“One of the young men in administrative detention put out papers describing this and other measures to be taken in an attempt to forcibly overthrow the governmental system”
What a joke! By burning some Arab houses this will throw out the Zionists? If you believe this Zionist lie, I have a bridge to sell you!
I wrote many MKs and davened that the tortured young men would be soon be granted a repreive from this terror against them. I also,as a mother, could hardly imagine the state of mind of their poor parents. I must say that it did lessen the joy of my own simcha, which was taking place at the same time the torture was, although I kept it from my daughter, the kallah. I could only think that these young men will never be the same, even if they are eventully released.
The wife of the young man, who eventually “confessed” and was then charged with the arson, that resulted in death of 3 people, one being a baby, said that her husband was
things that are too bad to post here
,” in addition to other tortures.
I told several MKs that, if we just sit by and let this happen, we are no different than the citizens of Sodom, who let the court(the AG???), apply torturous punishment for going against that city-state’s laws. Really, that is their “crime”, for speaking out too clearly about their desire for Melech Moshiach and the demise of a government that, thruout it’s history, has tried to destroy the Jewish way of life.
True, there are countless good works by both people within the government institutions and without, that help to strengthen the Jewish presence in the Land, and the IDF soldiers and some security personnel(maybe even some in the ISA(Shabak)) that serve H’ by protecting the Jewish people, but the ruling class of the government (and I’m not talking about Bibi here) are relentless in their attempts to forego the will of the people and make Israel into a country like any other country.
I think that is what all this is about, to keep those who are a thorn in the side of the ruling class under control.
We see one spineless religious party and “nationalistic” parties run to support the ISA claims and what is this but submitting to their power mongering. One can’t be too careful or suddenly one will find some “crime” that the AG is just too eager to pursue prosecuting. That is beside the whole broad brush smearing of any right-wing, especially Shomron or Yehuda dwelling, religious group. One can easily imagine, with this state of affairs dominating, why there are so many people “supporting” the claims of ISA and the Attorney Generals office.
I thank the poster, dbrim, who posted the names of the allegedly tortured youths.
As, I said, I’ve been busy with our family simcha but now, I’ll have more time to daven that they should have a refueah shelimah b’nefesh v’b’guf.
Tirtza -“We see one spineless religious party and “nationalistic” parties run to support the ISA claims what is this but submitting to their power mongering. “
First off Mazel Tov on your Simcha!
IDK why they call them Frum parties, when they don’t stand up for basic Human Rights?
IDK why the Frum communities support these parties?
I believe that you shouldn’t vote, like the Brisker Rov & Satmar Shittos!
Tirtza, did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, they are guilty. Documents have been found containing plans for terror attacks.
Health, basic human rights? What about the rights of women to walk on certain sides of streets or stand in certain places in the ultra-Chareidi sections of Ramat Bet Shemesh?
Avi K -“Health, basic human rights? What about the rights of women to walk on certain sides of streets or stand in certain places in the ultra-Chareidi sections of Ramat Bet Shemesh?”
You’re getting more mixed up as time goes on!
What I’m talking about – beating s/o till they confess!
It isn’t an abuse of basic human rights about the regulations in Bais Shemesh, even if they are wrong! I personally don’t know about their regulations.
@Heath, Thank you for your Mazel Tov, Mazel Tov!
As far as calling them a frum party, I’ll admit it is disappointing, but let’s let H’ judge us all with rachamim. Often we all justify things and this case they may consider it for the “greater good,” even if I think it’s really an excuse for not doing the right thing.
@Avi,I’m not here disputing if they are guilty, or not, of the crime. I am against an form of torture for allegeded criminals (including non-Jewish ones). Possibly in the case of a literal, physical ticking bomb, I could see making an exception. It is not democratic and it’s not the Jewish way.
As far as “documents,” there were statements by the head of the movement to cause the fall of the government thru arson and other attacks, I don’t think there were any incriminating evidence about specific attacks, i.e.. time, place, etc.
Note, also, that I called the torture “alleged,” but the whole idea of a secret police that has to answer to just a non-elected “Justice” official, the AG, seems to flaunt any concept of a “democratic,” free country. As an American I’d find that scary, as a Middle-Easterner I’d find that par-for-the course.
Tirtza, TY for the clarification. There is a dispute among those “in the know” as to whether there was actual torture of “special measures” (e.g. sleep deprivation) which were only used because of the severity of the charges (in “price tag” attack they were not used because these were only property crimes). These were not only used with the approval of an AAG but also with the approval of courts – and it is the “Jewish way” (see Baba Metzia 24a – which I quoted in a post of two weeks ago). If you find that scary, what do you think of what goes on in Guantanamo?
Health, as they are attempting to enforce it is an abuse of basic human rights.
Moi aussi, the Left says that they are racist right-wingers who persecute Arabs. YAWN!
Avi K -“Health, as they are attempting to enforce it is an abuse of basic human rights.”
IDK what the rules or laws are in Bais Shemesh. Why don’t you enlighten us? And then we can decide if it’s an abuse of basic human rights!
Health, the laws are supposed to be the laws of the state. However, a vigilante group is trying to prevent women from walking on certain sides of certain streets or stand in certain places. They are turning Bet Shemesh into a version of your pronunciation – Base Shemesh.
Guantanamo is not the same thing, those are prisoners of war, that may be what Israel should do with PA “prisoners-of -war” terror suspects, no trial by judges, only a military tribunal.
No, these are Israeli citizens and many are minors at that.
I do not, for one minute, believe the AG or ISA that it was “only” sleep deprivation, nevertheless, I feel compelled to say that the torture was “alleged”, because there needs to be proof.
Yet, you post that they were subjected to these unusual interrogation techniques because of the nature of the crime, yet they had no evidence of the crime, and really had to rely on a forced confession to get “evidence.”
I’m sorry, but what it boils down to is whether one wants to take the word of the AG’s office and ISA(a secret police organization, whose actions are only under the scrutiny of an office from the good-ole-boys system), or an independent( from the government) legal rights organization,Honenu, which specialises in Israeli citizens living in the shtachim.
You, along with Ministers Bennett and Shaked, the PM, and Likud, unquestionably trust the establishment organizations, Me and Rabbi Aryeh Stern, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, want those organizations claims of non-torture to be examined.
Rabbi Stern was the only official, that I saw reports, that demanded an independent investigation.
That was much to his credit, I believe.
I think all Jews should call out for the ISA to be investigated.
I know that the next time I hear that an Arab terror suspect “confessed” after ISA interrogates him/her, I’ll have my doubts how the “confession” was obtained.
Besides, as I mentioned above, these things, when they involve the PA terrorists, should be handled by the military.
To put interrogation of teens by police or others in perspective, let me tell you about a story my husband related to me.
Right now there is a lawsuit against the Worchester,MA Police Dept. for an interrogation and false confession they extracted from a 16 year old teen, who was convicted, falsely after a “confession” that she “murdered” her baby.
The young girl was interrogated (I assume without some of the horrors allegedly attributed to the Shabak) by police, without an attorney or her mother present (ILLEGAL), and, under those conditions, she “confessed.” The medical examiner’s report which the police did not even refer to, showed that the baby was sick and likely died of causes relating to that. However, these police, like the Shabak, were gunning for a conviction and they got one. The young girl spent 3 years in juvenille detention before having the conviction overturned and, now, the police dept. is being sued. In true Israeli chutzpah fashion, the police dept. is suing the lawyer for not suing them sooner. Worchester is one of the largest cities in MA, not some hick town.
So, I guess, even in the US, there are illegal interrogation methods but, at least, eventually, they are recognized, and the citizens recieve their just due process. Wiil these “hilltop youth” ever receive their just due process. Sorry to say, no, not if normally good people bury their heads in the sand.
Still we can all pray for their recovery and for justice to be done.
We all belive that, in the end, Justice, will be done.
Avi K -“Health, the laws are supposed to be the laws of the state. However, a vigilante group is trying to prevent women from walking on certain sides of certain streets or stand in certain places.”
If it’s illegal, let them call the cops. And what does that have to do with government abuse of basic human rights?!?
Tirtza,
1. If the detainees in Guantanamo are POWs then they should be treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention.
2. Why believe the lawyers? They also have an interest. If the court finds that the confessions were coerced they will be thrown out just as in the US.
3. I agree that here should be an independent investigation in order to clear the air. Either way it will be for the good.
Health,
2. What difference does it make if vigilantes violate rights without governmental interference? This did much to keep Jim Crow in place.
@Avi K,
Non-state actors are not really P.O.W. but like your discussion with Heath, you take the discussion away from the main premise.
The shtachim boys are not terrorists of the caliber of the intentional mass murderers housed it GITMO, even if guilty of the Duma ARSON case.
You did not address the obvious case which is more applicable here, that in civilized countries with due process of law, courts do not allow interrogation of minors without a lawyer or parent present. These boys didn’t even get to see a lawyer for over a month but still you have faith in the Israeli court system that alllows this.
Then you bring up a frivilous case with Heath about “civil rights” of women being violated because they can’t walk on one side of the street in Beit Shemesh and have the nerve to compare it to the suffering of those boys and their parents while being held in Shabak’s torture chambers. Shame on you.
Sof! Sof! learn to address the argument at hand instead of reaching for points that fit your argument.
Avi K-“My personal solution would be the remove the members of these extremist groups to a new town in the middle of the Negev and forget about them.”
So this would be a violation of their basic rights! You have No problem violating Frum Jews rights, but do you scream when s/o is accused of violating some Arab rights?!?
“2. What difference does it make if vigilantes violate rights without governmental interference?”
You’re right, but if (and that’s a big IF) you’re telling the truth, just call the ISA or the Border Police. They have no problem controlling anyone!
Health,
1. On the contrary, this will grant them their wish to completely separate from Israeli society. It might even have other salutary results. Both Georgia (in the American South) and Australia started as penal colonies.
2. I scream when people try to take the law into their own hands. I would also scream if some group would kidnap extremists and plop them into the middle of the Negev.
3. That is what these aggrieved women have tried to do. However, with Chareidi control of City Hall on the basis of one tombstone one vote a court suit is necessary.
AviK: as a frum woman living in NY I must say that having signs asking women not to walk on one side of the street or not to congregate in front of synagogues does not violate my basic human rights. (Nor does mandatory seating towards the back or on one side of the bus such as the BP/ Williamsburg or Monsey bus.) It may inconvenience me a little at times but a woman that is tzanuah understands the reasoning and doesn’t make a fuss. Torture, if true here, is an entirely different real human rights issue — don’t make a mish-mash of the two.
Mammele – Don’t bother responding to guys like him! They are so left you can’t talk any sense to them.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.