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Mod80, considering how many people have luxuries in their lives that they won’t give up, its a small percentage that deserve our pity.
I highly doubt this is the case.
its a small percentage that deserve our pity
yes they do warrant our pity
oh well. I disagree strongly. living in a torah environment is a priority to many. 2 miles in an urban area is a huge amount.
choosing to live in a torah environmet doesnt mean you dont value schools. I’ll say they value it more than you do.
About tuition? Or about not realizing their selfishness and how it relates to the overall society?
i dont know sj
i was just responding to your statement that they deserve our pity
personally i dont know the circumstances of everyone who was unable to pay and do not intend to condemn all of them based on personal negative speculation
Mod80, I know enough people across the spectrum. I know how many people use and abuse the scholarship system. They don’t think they are abusing it because “cleaning help is a necessity” and other such nonsense.
Perhaps the real pity is that we perpetuate this nonsense.
perhaps the real pity is that people who view others, forget that dan l kaf zchus is not just a nice little quaint saying.
Unfortunately there are many parents that make tuition payments a low one on their priority lists. They buy nice cars, go on vacations etc. but paying tuition is way down one the list. Because of this many yeshivos and day schools have been feeling the pinch. Unfortunately, those that are unable to pay for legitimate reasons are also affected by this. Everyone is correct that the children shouldn’t suffer because of their parents misfortunes or their parents being unreasonable. There are very few other ways to “force” the parents to make their obligatory payments. It is extremely sad that our children have to suffer but what can we do otherwise?
Mod80, in the abstract, I’m not dan lekaf zechus. And I don’t pity the lack of report card. I pity them for not understanding finances or how to deal with that. I pity them for thinking they are above paying for things they want. I pity them for the system which has told them they can have everything they want and not have to pay for it.
But pity them for not recieving a report card? The kid gets grades throughout the year. So they know how they did.
SJS:
Granted that a person’s SUBJECTIVE neccesities are cleaning help, late model Lexus, $120 restaurant tabs, etc.
This is where a tuition committee comes in with an OBJECTIVE viewpoint about the level of neccesary spending they will accept for a scholarship. Above that line would be considered excessive and scholarship will be affected. Baruch Hashem, I never accepted a tuition committee appointment. It’s a hard job.
SJS,
Because in your opinion cleaning help is not a necessity, does not make it so. As I said there have been Rabbonim that consider cleaning help a necessity. Maybe you are superwomen and can work 40 hours out of the home and still find time for homework, cooking and cleaning the house. Most women cannot do that.
I pay what the school asks me to. to me the $50 a week I spend on cleaning help is a necessity. My wife works full time and is a very neat person. it is unrealistic of me to think that on top of all her other responsibilities, she should be busy with the house all week as well.
many schools withhold transcripts as well as report cards.
SJS, please clarify what you wrote:
A) “A Yeshiva education is a priveledge (sic), not a right.”
I think its unfair to ask others to foot your tuition bill because you want cleaning help.
Arc, realize, that’s $2500/year that should be going to your school if you aren’t paying full tuition. And that $2500 has to come from somewhere. Or, it may mean the teachers in your school aren’t being paid on time. Your $2500 on cleaning help may mean a teacher has trouble feeding his/her family.
I wrote I pay what they ask me to. my school pays on time.
To me, my wifes sanity is worth $2500. I dont vacation or eat out because I allocate my funds to cleaning help instead.
EJ, a yeshiva education is a luxury in and of itself. The Torah mandates that a father educate his son. Not that he send his children to a private school 6 days a week.
If you want a luxury, be prepared to pay the bill and not ask others to foot it.
So yes, IMO, anything that is extra is a luxury. If you aren’t paying full tuition, you shouldn’t be giving presents. You shouldn’t be going out for pizza or for your anniversary. You should go to bare bones living. Unless a yeshiva education isn’t worth it to you?
Don’t ask others to foot the bill for your luxuries.
I would love to be on a scholarship committee. I would show people how to reduce their luxuries and pay the right amount.
Its also really hard to pity someone who “can’t pay tuition” but leases a nice Honda Odyssey, eats lots and lots of meat, has cleaning help, lives in an expensive area etc.
I feel bad for those in situations who really can’t improve. Not those who don’t want to.
EDITED
“a yeshiva education is a luxury in and of itself”
thats where you kind of fork from the rest of us. Your opinion is valuable just not in this thread as the parameters you set are different.
For most schools full tuition does not cover the actual costs. When my kids started school I looked into this a little and spoke with realatives that are involved with schools and school amdinistration. The common denomenator of their responses was that full tuition is generally less than the cost per student which was at that time estimated to be around $15k. The schools expect to raise a certain amount through fundraising. Jewish education is not a Privilege it is an obligation, more so it is also a community obligation. By you paying an extra $2,500 you are making the fundraisers job easier, but you are not paying for someone elses kid. Very few parents are even covering the actual costs for their kids.
a yeshiva education is a luxury in and of itself
how can one comment on this?
Arc, please tell me how a yeshiva education is a necessity. Please explain to me how my mother or my grandmother or my grandfather etc are/were frum without a Yeshiva education.
Please explain how women stayed frum before Sarah Schneerer.
I just find it odd that such a large % of households “need” cleaning help. A small percentage? Sure I’ll buy that. 90% of people? Um….
Mod80 – a Jewish education is a necessity. A Yeshiva education is not. Fundamental difference.
Most elementary schools full tuition is cost of kid plus.
It is unreasonable to expect wealthy (I’m not) people to live plain and simple lives and give all the money they would spend to schools.
ETA I dont care what they did in the shtetl today school isnt a luxury. I think you need to sit a few plays out.
how about a shul is a luxury. you can daven with a minyon in a private home
how about a Mikveh is a luxury. you can always find a natural body of water. it might be cold and you might have to travel but it isnt necessary. or use a Mikveh in a nearby city.
ALWAYS the first thing an erlich community does when founding a new community is to establish a Yeshivah, a Mikveh, and a Shul, generally in that order.
the first thing that Yehudah did when preparing Goshen for his family was to establish a Yeshivah. he felt it was a necessity. but of course the fathers then were not as capable of teaching their children, as the fathers today in America. most fathers today are just as capable as the Rabbaim to teach Torah to the children. and of course the fathers dont need to earn a Parnassah.
yes Yeshivas are just an uneccessary luxury. im sure the Gedolim would be unanimous in their support of this idea.
I agree with squeak, the books should be open and yeshivas should have committees and conferences to discuss issues and how to deal with them to make the finances flow better. The problem is that Yeshivas feel it is NOT the parent body’s business how they run the school nor how the money is spent. And right there is a huge problem! I am not saying that every parent should walk into the office and have a look at the books. But maybe the parents should elect the working committee who works with the Board and Yeshiva administration and those parents should be able to review the books and the issues and report back to the PTA and parent body on what the Yeshiva is doing and what the Parent body needs to do.
Mod80, that’s true. And if people can’t afford to build a mikvah, they use a body of water.
If people can’t afford to build a shul, they have a minyan in the house. Obviously, the sefer Torah is NOT a luxury. But the building is.
A Yeshiva is a wonderful thing. I wonder what % of people in Goshen studied in Yeshiva. And at what cost to the community.
Arc, I don’t expect rich people to give all their money to schools. I expect those who can’t afford Yeshiva education but want it, give up their luxuries. Otherwise, that’s a statement that a Yeshiva education is not worth it to you.
Rescue, where I live, tuition is between $12,000-$17,000/year. It covers costs if everyone would pay in full.
SJS said:
Please explain how women stayed frum before Sarah Schneerer.
Excellent point, many didn’t, that’s why Sara Schneerer got the endorsement from the Gedolim to open a school.
Arc, if school is a necessity, where does it come in terms of financial priorities? Do you move to a cheaper home/apartment and walk far to shul? To you eat rice and beans to pay for it? Or do you make others pay for it?
SJS
If tuition is that price where you live than the cost is probably higher, additionaly my figures are over 10 years old.
Please tell us of any Rabbis who will mainitain that a yeshiva education is not an obligation on the parent and that public school with talmud torah will do.
due to our fundamental difference I’m done playing. My comment about rich giving money to schools was to rescue.
SJS – I do agree on some level that a YESHIVA education is a luxury – if you can’t afford it, you can’t afford it. What got me in a twist (and every one else, apparently!) is that you seemed to deign to determine what is considered luxurious spending for everyone.
If I’m off on that sentiment, my apologies!
SJS: You said: “I would love to be on a scholarship committee. I would show people how to reduce their luxuries and pay the right amount. “
Let me assure you that sitting on the tuition committee of any Hebrew day school is a thankless and frustrating task. Contrary to what you think, you would not be able to point out cost cutting measures to the parents. Your job would be to review the tax returns and forms submitted by the parents and use the already established formulae to determine the fees to be paid by the family for the coming school year. If families do not wish to supply this information they are assessed the full price of tuition. Even if you know that certain families live very luxurious lifestyles, you are obliged to deal only with the submitted information – and then you must be shtum about the entire transaction as it is confidential. I doubt that you want this job. I always feel sort of sorry for any accountants that have kids in a school, because they are always asked to be on the committee.
EJ, its not so much that I want to pick into peoples lives and say “You bought chicken for dinner, that’s $2.50 less of your scholarship.” My point is that people have so many luxuries in their lives that they aren’t willing to forgo. To me that says they don’t actually value a yeshiva education. Its not as important as their cleaning help because someone else will pick up the tab.
MG, my cousin is on a committee. They do look at things like stay at home Moms, fancy homes, big leases and contributions to 401ks. They ask for women to go back to work, refinance homes for tuition, reduce lease costs and reduce 401k constributions. They base their scholarships on things like that.
The local schools as for 2 things – salary (after taxes) and monthly expenses. You pay the difference. They do not allow you to have much in savings though.
The local schools as for 2 things – salary (after taxes) and monthly expenses. You pay the difference. They do not allow you to have much in savings though
I agree with this. as well as what is considered a luxury.
I think my kids school is fair.
So arc, lets say I make $200,000 a year. After taxes, its about $110,000 (that includes 401k and health insurance).
I have a large, fancy house with a mortgage of $4500/month. $54,000/year.
4 kids. Food budget around $1,000/month. That’s $12,000/year.
2 car leases, $500/each. $12,000/year.
Life insurance for both parents, $2,000/year.
Utilities (electric, gas, water, garbage) – $500/month. $6,000/year.
Clothing – $2,000/year (family of 6).
Cleaning help 1X week at $100 (going rate) – $5200/year.
That’s $95,200 and I haven’t added in a lot of expenses. Like lulav and esrog. Or cell phones/house phone/internet. Or summer camp.
So that’s $15,000 free for 4 kids tuition.
Think that’s fair? I certainly don’t. I think that’s ridiculous.
you’re calling me out for agreeing with you?
SJS
I’m sure the majority of people are not like your imagination.
LOL Arc, I thought you meant you agree with how they do it.
Of course it’s ridiculous. But at the end of the day, someone else will pick up the tab for the delinquent yeshiva tuition. However, no one will pick up the tab for the cleaning help, car payments, mortgage, or food (unless you ask to dip in to a tzedaka fund). People respond to incentives, and unless you can give them disincentives they will act this way.
Withholding a report card is not a sufficient disincentive (nor is it the right thing to do). If you come up with something that is sufficient to get people to do the right thing, it is not considered acceptable to implement.
squeak, its not “considered” acceptable to implement, or it isn’t acceptable to implement?
depends on what point of view you choose to take. I am merely making the argument that it is unimplementable (to coin a phrase).
What is your view on the matter (if you take a position)?
I’d think you could figure it out from what I replied to the OP using a K”V.
someone earning $200,000 is not paying 45% of earning in taxes.
They will likely itemize the the interest on the mortgage and state taxes. They will also get exemtions. I don’t have time to calculate better (October 15th is Friday) Assuming 10% for 401k and $10k for health insurance there should be no more than $40k in taxes which gives you another $20k to play around with. That is not ncluding other deductions avaliable. I will say that the schools recognize that for a frum family to live modestly income in the mid hundreds is required. Your numbers are made up and so is your whole notion of luxury. If you are paying full tuition you are still not paying for yenems kid. It is a fact, ask any school administrator if full tuition in yeshivas was paid by everybody it would still not cover the budget.
rescue, the numbers are not so far fetched. The AMT kicks in for pretty much everybody at 200K and when it does most of your deductions go out the window. 401 (k) contributions are limited to 16.5K for HCE I believe (you can check with google). Not that everyone will agree max funding your 401K should come before max funding your yeshiva.
With SJS’s assumptions, I would put after tax at 120K rather than 110K, but that’s close enough.
her numbers were way off to back up her point (in her mind). they arent realistic.
it depends on the school but most NY area elementary schools are covered by tuition especially if everyone paid full.
small yeshivas are a topic for themselves.
SJS, your budget seems “normal” to you but way out of line to others. For instance if you can’t afford tuition for your kids maybe you should drive less expensive cars or consider buying rather than leasing and keeping it longer. I am just using this as an example for people who truly want to pay their tuition and shun their responsibility. Of course everyone has to look into their own pocket to see how to do what is necessary, but if you can’t afford tuition you usually are not in a position to have a $4,500 a month mortgage either.
IRS.gov withholding calculator puts tax for 200K married couple with 4 kids, said mortgage, and maxing out the 401K at 30K. FICA is another 10K. Health insurance premiums of 10K are very likely. I didn’t bother to do state tax, but I think assuming 13.5K is reasonable. That brings me to 120K.
200
– 10 (FICA)
– 16.5 (401K)
– 10 (Medical)
– 30 (IRS.gov)
– 13.5 (state- estimate)
______
120.0
I don’t think my numbers are far fetched for people in my neighborhood. Nor do I think people should lease expensive cars. We recently donated our second car because it was costing too much money. Now, if we both need a car for work, I drive my husband and then use the car and pick him later. Then I need to make up extra time another day because I can’t get in a full 9 hour day plus travel that way.
Those are the numbers the committees here don’t look at. THey look at the “after tax number” of $110,000 (or $120,000 if you want, remember though I left out a lot of expenses). Then they look at a bottom line number of costs. You come up with very little for tuition.
Tuition is average $15,000 per child. So $60,000.
And BTW this isn’t my budget LOL. I don’t earn that much money nor have those expenses.
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