Tznius: a woman’s issue

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  • #587904

    The “tznius issue” has been discussed in many a place now, for the past few months, and as a woman who lives right in the center of a ‘problem area’, I would like to speak up now on behalf of these women, my friends and neighbors.

    Before I begin I would just like to assure you all who are shallow enough to care, that I am from a ‘black hat, no TV, long skirts and thick stockings’ type of family.

    Women are NOT objects. Men are constantly shooting off their mouths, offering options to ‘control the womenfolk’. Well let me tell you something. My father (a local PROMINENT rabbi) had ever pointed out something to me regarding my tznius, or lack of, I would have been shell-shocked. This was my MOTHER’s responsibilty, and she performed her duty admirably.

    I believe it is time to say, respectfully, of course: MEN, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. Now, I know what you’re all thinking is ‘it is our business’. Okay, you have a point. After all, women dressed in a non-tzniusdik fashion reflects poorly on the rest of the Jews, right? I submit that if the issue was indeed as urgent as I have gleaned from letter-writers, then why aren’t these people out there raising awareness? I do agree that it is quite disconcerting to walk down my street and see ‘frum’ women wearing tight clothes and short skirts, but I don’t approach them because I know just how painful that can be for them.

    All I am saying is that the only people who should be discussing and addressing this are the women, with help (if necessary) from a RESPECTABLE rav. And I emphasize RESPECTABLE!

    The blatant disregard of respect and trust for women as the mothers of our future generations, and the complete lack of control exhibited by some MALE posters on this site are absolutely out of line, and I suggest that MEN show a little faith that women as a whole may be ‘going through a tough patch’, but we will come ’round to our senses soon. There are always going to be a few women who just don’t grow up, but leave them be, and again, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

    Tznius is a womens issue. It is not ‘tzniusdik’ for men to be discussing the tightness, length or colors of a womens garb.

    #623766

    yoshi
    Member

    I’d like to agree and elaborate on the topic of men commenting on women’s “dress code.” Just by talking about it on this forum forces a man to think about it. So, maybe the men should stop talking about it already, you are only amplifying this aveira you say women are “forcing” you to commit. If you really have a problem with it, then speak to your Rav, and talk to your wife and daughters about it. It is extremely inappropriate to be discussing how a woman is dressing, and being so descriptive about it, Yikes!

    #623767

    just me
    Participant

    I agree. It always appalled me when I would hear stories of male staff members in a Bais Yaakov type school checking skirt lengths. I’ve heard storieds-urban legends I hope-of rabbis standing at the bottom of a staircase checking to see if the girls were wearing tights or just knee-his.

    Men, work on what you can do. Try talking to the young men I see in my neightborhood who are wearing kippas, but have mouths like any public school boy. Leave stangers alone.

    Oh and not that it matters, but I also wear long skirts, no slit and no hair showing.

    #623768

    Joseph
    Participant

    Tzinius, like Shabbos, is a HALACHIC issue. If someone violates tzinius, EVERY person, man or woman, has a HALACHIC OBLIGATION to kindly inform the perpetrator that they are in violation of halacha (unless they know with absolute certainty that the tzinius violator will refuse to listen and continue violating the Torah.)

    #623770

    rik
    Member

    In answer to the last question- when someone dresses provocatively it is usually a reflection of feeling empty on the inside. As a recent teenager I’ve been there and done that. I nkow what the feeling of emptiness looks like. It pains me whan I see someone dressing to show off her outside because she feels she has no internal worth.

    #623771

    Softwords
    Participant

    Semper_Fidelus – I don’t need to expound upon whether this is also a male’s issue as well. The last two post are sufficient enough. However, I have a thought to add here that really frustrates me concerning this issue. I hear all the time how women “need to be more tznius” and “what lengths, styles, and tightness are acceptable”, however I never hear people speaking to women about the underlining issue, D’vekus L’Hashem.

    Most frum women know the basic Halachic guidelines in regards to dress code and conduct, so why do some choose not to follow it? To me the answer is simple. The main ingredient is left out, “WHY?! Why be tznius?”! If we would constantly drill ourselves (both men and women) that the main purpose of the Torah (Taryag mitzvos) is to be M’dabek to Hashem Yisborach and as Mesilus Yisharim writes that D’vekus HaShem is the “greatest pleasure of all pleasures”, then we would approach things differently. If we would realize that the mitzvos that men are required reflect an aspect of Hashem Yisborach(B’tzelum Elokim Nevrah HaAdam) and the same with women’s mitzvos (that their mitzvos also are reflections of Hashem), then they would realize that when they are tznius they are reflecting an aspect of Hashem. What a great thing!

    If women would be taught to walk down the street with this type of Machshava instead of just “I have to be tznius”, then it seems obvious to me that women would certainly STRIVE to be as modest as they can. After all, they are modeling after the Rabono Shel Olam!

    It saddens me the approach we are taking nowadays by ramming it down people’s throats with sharp statement of what is an isn’t tznius to wear. We may even be encouraging rebellion this way! On top of that, we are also encouraging people not to be understanding of other people’s weaknesses as well (as if we don’t have our own areas of weaknesses in Avodas Hashem)! We can not and will not bring people closer to Hashem unless we learn to look deeper into their issues and find the REAL root of their problem.

    As one Rav said to some students when they complained about another student’s not wearing a kippa while playing basketball, “I could call him over and ask him to put on a kippa and he’ll do it, but what’ll be tomorrow when I’m not around?! Better, I should slowly be mashbia on him to draw closer to Hashem and Mimeila he’ll start to understand on his own to wear a kippa EVEN when playing basketball.”

    May we see better times,

    Softwords

    #623775

    there seems to be 2 reasons y a woman would not dress tzniusdik. 1) she wants a reaction fromm men ( flirting or more) 2) she wants to tease men. # 1 is normal and understandable and we have to work to overcome that yetzer hora. #2 is simply vicious.

    #623776

    yoshi
    Member

    There are women and men that dress certain ways because they are PROUD of how they look, if you can only see it as self esteem issue maybe you need to look at yourself and work on your own ego. Things aren’t always in black and white…

    #623777

    Joseph
    Participant

    yoshi –

    If a woman dresses like a provocative zoineh, that is not someone “proud” of herself.

    #623778

    draykup
    Member

    There ARE prominent Rabonim who speak in public about this issue (i.e. R’ Simcha Bunim Cohen Shlita).They DO say in PUBLIC what the guidlines should be. Including not tight fitting, 4 inches below the knee etc.

    #623779

    keep it simple,

    you wrote that some women dress provocatively to tease men. I had never thought of that before. If indeed it happens I agree with you that it is a vicious thing to do. Do you know that it does really happen? Are you a woman who’s done this in the past? Or maybe any other women here can share with us if they or their friends really do that and why?

    #623781

    Jewess
    Member

    Any man who thinks that a woman is dressing a certain way to tease men is so ridiculously wrong. Honestly, we dress for other women. There is a competition to look good among women and I promise you that nobody is trying to tease You or You or You.

    #623782

    jphone
    Member

    To “Somebody”. Why are you dressing to impress other women, like many other things in life done to impress other people, it implies some sort of insecurity.

    Moreover, this drive to impress other women is the exact opposite of “tzniyus”. Not tzniyus as defined by hem lines and the amount of curves shown. “Hatznea Leches” includes how one condutcs themselves in public. “Walking the runway” modeling your clothes for other women is not “hatnea leches”.

    #623784

    Jewess
    Member

    jphone:

    My insecurities are not your issue. From that other post that got deleted you seem to be one who cannot control his thoughts. There was a major lack of tzniut there.

    #623785

    chachom
    Participant

    somebody,

    Your “insecurities” by dressing to impress, aside from doing an aveira yourself, causes men who see you to do an aveira. So you are doubly chayiv.

    #623786

    reenmasheen
    Member

    does anybody know where i could listen to reb simcha bunim cohens speech about this issue?

    #623787

    jphone
    Member

    My thoughts are my thoughts. That you choose to stimulate them, is MY problem as well as yours (lifnei iver is something women are obligated to avoid as well).

    Your personal attack aside, you avoided answering my question. Why do you dress to impress other women? Are you insecure that you have to do this? Is their some sort of scoring system with judges scoring how women are dressed? Do you receive an update once a week and when you see you are falling behind dress even more provocatively to get other womens attention (of course men will be wearing blinders and staring at the sidewalk and wont see any of this – except for me on a bad day, everyone else is a perfect tzadik). Is one upmanship consistent with hatznea leches?

    I’m surprised my earlier message was deleted. Either it should have never been posted or once up, left up. I dont think there was a major lack of tznius AND the questions posed in that message still need answering. In this “in your face generation” there are certain things that I would prefer not to have in my face, certainly not placed there by frum women.

    #623788

    ChanieE
    Participant

    #623789

    just me
    Participant

    Keep it simple, You’ve GOT to be kidding!! When I look at the women walking in my neighborhood that aren’t as tzniyus as they should be, I don’t think they have you in mind at all. Most are wearing denim skirts, some longer than you feel is right, some just at their knees. Most are wearing Israeli tichels. Some with…well…more hair than I would show. If you think any of these women are provocative and are “teasing” men then perhaps you should take some lessons in anivus. You men just aren’t the center of everyone’s universe. Sorry.

    Thanks for the chuckle, though.

    #623790

    feivel
    Participant

    hypothetically speaking:

    if there were no men in the world, would there be a need for tznius?

    #623791

    feivel
    Participant

    Tznius is a CHESED!

    those of you who deny the mountainous Yetzer that Hashem gave to men,

    have you heard of:

    Schem and Dinah

    Paroh and Sarah

    Avimelech and Sarah

    Dovid and Batsheva

    Shimshon and Delilah

    Yehudah and Tamar

    taking a gentile woman in war

    Yosef and Potiphars daughter

    the plague of Midian

    pelegesh of Binyomin

    and on and on.

    the Tanach, Midrashim, Gemorrah, and Halachah are filled with matters of this Yetzer.

    Tznius is a CHESED

    fitting for the daughters of Avrohom, the father of Chesed.

    when you dress non-Tznius, you deny your father, and your Father in Shamayim.

    a pity on Jewish women, daughters of Sarah, Rivka, Leah, and Rochel, when they dress like the goyim, whatever the reason. a pity on all of us.

    #623792

    jphone
    Member

    Hypothetical questions, normally deserve hypothetical answers. However, “Feivels” hypothetical question is one of the first simanim in shulchan aruch. There is an entire siman devoted to halachos of getting dressed, including halachos how to maintain a level of Tznius even when nobody is around. After all, hashem is always around.

    Is Tznius really about how we appear before other people or how we carry ourselves even when noone is around?

    To the woman who laughed at the suggestion that women dress to catch the eyes of men. It is irrelevant WHY a woman dresses provocatively, the fact is, it is wrong. Pink shirts can be tzniusdik and they may not be, the same with blue, black or mandarin orange.

    #623793

    eli lev
    Participant

    TSNIUS means

    DO NOT ATTRACT any person’s [man or women’s] attention TO UR PHYSICALITY !!{includes ur body, ur clothing, ur car, ur furniture, ur gait,etc.

    [is this short & simple ?]

    #623794

    jphone
    Member

    Eli Lev: The meforshim on “hatznea leches im hashem elokecha” respectfully disagree with you.

    #623796

    eli lev
    Participant

    jphone

    please explain.

    [ tsniys relates to both bain adam lamakom & b. a. leodom, i only explained the latter ]

    #623797

    teenof13
    Member

    You know how hard it is to be 13 yrs by girl? Tznius,mags, movies, all that stuff? Well first of all, instead of jumping down our throats-think of peer presure. Yes, im thirteen and stupid, i care what my friends think. secondly, all you people who r calling us “chayos” r really insensitive, instead of smoking or talking on your phones all day, pay attention to your daughter and talk to her, my father talks to me about this stuff-but he still uses his cell all day. Men-do you even realise the looks your wives give you or the way your kids feel when you take your cell over them? okay back on track. it feels good to vent. Thirdly, you all should be glad that we’re not hanging with boys all day like some really messed up kids do. though i suppose tznius leads 2 that. fourthly, instead of limiting us to e/t, give us some space! e/o is on their own different level of Torah, so i don’t appreciate my brother lecturing me abt e/t i do. your not doing a/t for me. Fourthly, the way you all think you know e/t abt women and girls is really sick.

    #623799

    mdlevine
    Member

    teenof13. You raise a good point in here and I encourage you to start a new thread discussing the issue of fathers and mothers who spend more time on and give priority to the phone (landline and cell) and the computer than to the kids.

    One suggestion if I may, please use standard abreviations and not text message abbreviations – not all us old folks (the one who you are trying to reach understand e/t, e/o and a/t etc.

    #623800

    willi
    Member

    mdlevine-

    e/t = everything

    a/t = anything

    e/o = everyone

    #623801

    nameless
    Member

    Please refer to comment nos. 119 ‘out pf the mailbag,

    #623803

    Bowzer
    Participant

    tznius like many other mitzvos has been commercialized. Tznius is one of the most beautiful mitzvos a woman has (and men)it is a statement that I am not just a body I am a neshama, and by looking at me you can’t not even begin to know me. Tznius is privacy. Not attracting men is an out come, but if a woman, or girl has no sense of what privacy and dignity of the soul means how can she be tzanua? We need to eduacate women to appreciate their neshamos- this will bring them to tznius. I highly recommend a book by Gila Manelson (not at all the typical BY ideas) “outside inside”- for a fresh and refreshing look at tznius. As sy sym used to say an educated consumer is the best customer- let’s try that approach to tznius, educate our daughters to appreciate the hashkafa and they will come to tznius. I have had much posotive experience with this method. (alomost 15 years bli ayin hara) I never lecture about inches etc. . .

    once I had a student who was always wearing the “wrong ” socks 9ie socks which the school didn’t allow) I bought her a bunch of permitted socks and wrapped them in nice paper and each day left a different pair in her locker with a funny note. Problem solved with out a word of tochacha. A year later we had a follow up discussion whith no anger and today this girl is married with children of her own and she always wears socks and is very tzanua. What would have happened if I would have punished her? yelled ? lectured? Rabbi Akiva said that in his generation he was doubtful if there was anyone who could give proper tochacha. and what about our generation?

    Let’s educate and set a good loving example.

    #623804

    jphone
    Member

    It is an attitude. The “in your face” attitude of our generation, whether it be in dress, action, speech is all the antithesis of “hatznea leches”.

    #623805

    just me
    Participant

    After thinking about the subject, I realize that with some women who don’t dress so tzniyusdic, it’s a matter of frumkeit. With many people-especially I think alot of the people here-tzniyus has also begun to mean not dressing like an Ashkenazi charaidi. Denim-horrors! Colors other than dark blue or black-shikse! Does black twill make you closer to Hashem than pink denim?

    Also, like the man who doesn’t always make it to minyan or whose language isn’t appropriate for a frum person, a woman dresses on her “level” of frumkeit. Not to “tease” not to entice but because she doesn’t care about what she feels is YOUR level of tzniyus. I don’t like seeing the women dressed the way they are, but I must tell you that I don’t much care for seeing men not acting like they realize Hashem is watching them when they are in business or on line in a store or driving and double parking and blocking people.

    As for me, I do what I think is the way I should act and try not to stick my nose where it doesn’t belong and isn’t wanted. Might be a good idea for others.

    #623806

    Anonymous

    mdlevine- my main point is not the cell phones (though i did start a knew thread)it’s the rest of the letter that was the main point. Sorry bout the abbreviations. Willi-thanx for explaining them. And cheers to Bowzer. What you did was really caring.

    #623809

    Softwords
    Participant

    Just me – Although I’ve been screaming out a;; week long against the latest push for Vaad Hatznius, non-the-less I must contest with you here.

    You write, “As for me, I do what I think is the way I should act…”.

    I must say being the wife of what seems to be a fine Ben Torah (according to the way you describe your husband) it appears to me that you are not living up to his standards. A woman who’s husband supposedly seeks every opportunity available to learn Torah and understand what Hashem wants from us should likewise search out what Hashem feels is the gedarim of tznius, not decide on one’s own.

    #623810

    Bentzy18
    Participant

    To teenof13: I was not planning on coming into this thread about tznius but I’m trying to figure out why a certain individual was so negative and outright deragatory to you. I have read some interesting things here and as a father I see that I will have to work on my relationship with my daughter now when she is very young so that we will be on better footing later on in life. While I feel that advice in this area should be given over to you by a woman, I will make a few comments in general.

    1- Tznius like all other mitzvohs were given to us to make us better people. Yes there are many positive side affects to keeping the Mitzvohs, but the bottom line is what type of relationship do you want to have with Hashem. We all have to figure out our place in this world and sitting back and being dictated how you should live is not a good start to building a solid foundation. Already you have mentioned that you don’t feel like conforming to what your father says. (While I don’t know you or your family I don’t think that this will get better if it goes unchanged) What could happen is that you build up enough resentment and you will not be keeping what really is something that is very important. I also think that this is a good chance for you to take advantage of your emotions and find someone to learn with you what exactly what Tznius is about. Maybe this is a conversation to start off with your mother, or aunt or maybe there is a teacher that you are close with who cam help you. (Now you are probably thinking that all through scholl they keep drilling it into you, so what is the point? Well there is a big difference learning about something on a basic level geared to a large group then having a one on one session with someone where you can ask questions and express what you are feeling.)

    2nd back to the father on the cell phone thing. Well I think you have another window of opportunity here. Maybe and I say maybe because only you will know, but maybe you should go to your father and ask him to learn with you about Tznius, or at least have him sit and talk about why he feels the way that he does. You will probably not agree with everything that he says, but at least you are now getting a perspective on his view of the matter. It will be very hard at first becuase if it leads to a confontation then you will not have gained anything. But….if you ask honest questions, explain some of this difficulties and maybe ask him to help you brainstorm when dress and peer pressure are such big issues. So in short, Tznius is just the ice breaker, which can lead up to bigger and other diverse conversations. This is that chance that might get him off the phone long enough to see that you are not that little girl any more.

    3- Thank you for speaking up and addressing the issue. While a forum like this is not a way to adress halacha, it does give us the chance to discuss issues and hear other perspectives. Bowzer spoke very well like you mentioned as well as many others. On the flip side there will be individuals who will go on the attack and find fault with every word that you might say (as well as read into your post things that are not accurate). Don’t take all comments to heart and just ignore those who are just plain angry at the world.

    4- There is always going to be peer pressure regardless of your age and location. Now when you are young, it is hard to stand against the crowd, especially when you don’t feel up to it or don’t see what is wrong. I think more than ever you need to understand why tznius is important and then look for clothing that will be in style but yet up to our standards.

    To some of the other posts:

    I think there is a time and place for when men should comment. Usually it will not be the man’s place and when it needs to be brought up extreme caution should be used. Dealing with many children at risk, there where many well intentioned individuals who believed that they were doing the right thing standing on their soap box preaching tznius. However, instead of making a connection to holiness many of the kids saw this is a restriction that was used for control. I don’t think anyone likes to be told they are doing something wrong and when it’s done in a way that makes them feel like an object, second class, or worse will just backfire.

    We have to pick our battles and everyone needs to ask themselves if they are on the level that they should be. Sometimes we have to pick our responses. There will always be people out there giving their 2 cents worth and most of the time it isn’t even worth that. Still sometimes it is, and we have to learn to listen, take what ever there is to be gained and then act appropriately. And Yes it is very important for men to be good role models and watch how they act and what they say.

    #623811

    Think BIG
    Member

    “Tzinius, like Shabbos, is a HALACHIC issue. If someone violates tzinius, EVERY person, man or woman, has a HALACHIC OBLIGATION to kindly inform the perpetrator that they are in violation of halacha (unless they know with absolute certainty that the tzinius violator will refuse to listen and continue violating the Torah.) “

    Joseph, do you mean that statement literally? You mean to say that when you see a MAN conducting himself in a less than tzniusdik fashion, you give him tochacha?? Or is it only the women you worry about?

    Jphone, for someone who learns halacha (i assume) you may not be used to the concept of “gray area” In many other areas of halacha, things are very black and white, to the minute or degree of whatever the issue is. In tznius, besides for the four areas on the body which are measurable (including married womans hair), the rest of the clothing issue is not so black and white. The basic rule of thumb is that women should not dress in a manner which will attract attention to herself. But within that, the woman has to use her binah to know how to apply that. Unfortunately, that binah is not so developed in some, and in other cases, different people will disagree with what is considered untzniusdik. A woman might choose something which covers her elbows well etc. but the color is in the opinion of some people flashy, while others will contend its not.

    I say this so you men may appreciate a bit of the struggle that goes on for some of these girls. It would be great if they could look to their teachers as role models and imitate their dress, but often this is not practical, as the teacers are like 4o years older and dress as befits an older woman.

    I work alot with Bais Yaakov High school girls and i find that sometimes even the “good girls” from good families, who are the “star bais yaakov girls” struggle with knowing whats appropriate.

    The problem is compounded when you think about how fast styles change. Anything thats too “in style” is not tzanua, but after a while, when it is not so new and attention grabbing, it is fine to wear (assuming it covers any part that needs to be covered) That is what they teach in bais yaakov, and again that is not so clear-cut.

    I don’t believe those “urban legends” of rabbis measuring skirts. that would be so perverse. but the rebbetzins in the bais yaakovs frequently did so, in a loving manner, hopefully, to insure the girls dressed appropriately.

    I think the answer is to have a tznius awareness campain, RUN BY WOMEN such as what bnos melochim is doing in every school. But having men on this site comment on their hihurim and on womens clothes is just so distasteful, to put it mildly. mEN, PLEASE FOCUS ON YOUR ISSUES. YOU’LL BE ALOT BETTER OFF.

    (about r’ Simcha Bunim Cohn, he is a prominant Posek who i’m sure has a far better message to convey than you girls are making me and other men sin!)

    #623812

    Joseph
    Participant

    Think BIG: If giving tochacha has a chance of making an impact, it should be given to a man ow a woman. Regardless of which halachic issue is at hand (tzinius, Shabbos, Kashrus, etc.)

    #623813

    jphone
    Member

    Why was the big Tznius gathering in Lakewood gievn by Rabbonim to men? Wouldnt it have had a greater impact on women if respected “rebetzins” would have spoken to women about the hashkafos behind tznius?

    #623814

    Joseph
    Participant

    jphone – I believe there were 2 Asifas – one for men and one for women.

    #623815

    jphone
    Member

    There was an Asifa for women? Can someone confirm? Who spoke? Where was it?

    The very fact that there was an Asifa for men, tells me, that at least according to those who spoke at the Asifa, Tznius is very much a mens issue as well.

    #623816

    jphone
    Member

    You think or you know that there were 2 Asifas? Does anyone know? If there was an Asifa for women, does anyone know what ideas were discussed? The Asifa for men was covered and then some by every jewish news outlet.

    #623817

    ujm
    Participant

    Look at YW’s archives. There were 2 asifas. Both men and women. Both have audio copies.

    #623818

    tzippi
    Member

    The articles that I read that covered the men’s asifa also mentioned the women’s. I think that the women’s is accessible via Kol Halashon.

    I know Rebbetzin Kotler, tlit’a spoke. Probably quite briefly but that alone I’m sure was worth the rest of it. The other speakers, to be fair, I’m sure were excellent too.

    #623819

    can somebody explain why BY graduates will insist that their husbands stay and learn leolam va’ed but they find nothing wrong with dressing very skimpy—tight tops, and slinky skirts that do a wonderful job attracting men on the street?

    #623820

    Joseph
    Participant

    jphone:

    Here is re: the men’s Asifa:

    AUDIO & PHOTOS: Thousands Attend Lakewood’s Tznius Asifa

    Here is re: the women’s Asifa:

    AUDIO: Thousands of Women Attend Lakewood’s Tznius Asifa

    And yes, like you said “Tznius is very much a mens issue as well.” Men must be tznius themselves, as well as insure that heir wives and daughters are tznius.

    #623821

    Think BIG
    Member

    Joseph: I will disagree with you on this one. When it comes to Tznius, the idea of having a man notice and rebuke a lack of tznius on the part of a female dressed inappropriately, is in itself lacking in tznius. There are other ways around it, like mentioning to a female who you have in common with the “tznius offender” to sensitively mention it.

    You have to realize that in this topic, women are very sensitive and it simply isn’t effective to “give tochacha”. As I have mentioned previously, I work with bais yaakov girls, and I can tell you the situation is far from simple. It cannot be a open and shut case that tznius is like every other mitzva which you can go over to anyone to give tochacha. It requires a lot of sensitivity and know-how for it to be effective. Girls and women just do not appreciate being told that they dress inappropriately and certainly not from men. It is a tough sitaution, but sadly true.

    Additionally, I have an issue with men going into specifics about women’s clothing. There is a widely -studied book (sefer ) on all tznius areas possible which has become quite controvertial, partly because it was written by a man, and was very specific. People have been very turned off by the whole idea. There are b”h enough women out there who can tackle these subjects in a sensitive and refined manner.

    In summary, while you may be in the “right” (and i’m not sure you are) that when you see an area that needs tochacha it should not matter what mitzva it is (shabbos, tznius or otherwise), it is more important to be effective than to be right.

    #623822

    Joseph
    Participant

    Think BIG:

    Being that you are in girl’s chinuch (you said you work in a Bais Yaakov, no?), I’ll concede the expertise on this subject to you. And if giving the tochacha by a man is bound to fall on deaf ears, then it should not be given. And this would fall in line with what I said. Tochacha should only be given if there is a possibility of it making an impact. This is a prerequisite of tochacha itself.

    BTW I’m not certain which Sefer you are referring to, but I think Rav Pesach Falk’s tznius Sefer is a wonderful addition to every Bas Yisroel’s library, and there is much to be learned from it. Our Rabbonim have been specifying the boundaries of dress from time immemorial.

    #623823

    Why are all of you being so upbeat about this. It’s not the ladies that are the problem, its us the guys who have a strong yetzer hara! How come the halachos of men are stricter than the ladies for ex. hilchos niddah. because the men thinks of inaproppiate thoughts more than a woman would which is the nature of this world.

    #623824

    Think BIG
    Member

    Joseph:

    My point was not only that girls, being that they are so sensitive when it come to their clothes, will not be accepting of mussar so fast, but also that I feel it is inappropriate and lacking tznius for a man to comment on womens clothes. Don’t you hear that? Do you feel comfortable saying to your neighbor/sister-in-law/cousin, “You know your clothes are too tight. I could see your form.” ?

    I will not comment any further on the sefer, but I will say this as regards to your comment: “Our Rabbonim have been specifying the boundaries of dress from time immemorial.” al pi halacha there are 5 areas of a women that are halachically considered ervah (including kol isha and married womans hair). That is the extent of what or rabbanim have been specifying from time immemorial.

    What is construed as tznius or lacking therof TODAY is largely “gray area”. So, a sefer that goes into specific details may be helpful to some in some areas in our days, but may not be applicable everywhere, for everyone and for the next generation. i fear that there may be much that, as a man, you are not familiar with in the concept of tznius for women.

    I will be the first to tell you that it is certainly a huge problem today, and a great challenge for our girls. But approaching it by giving “tochacha” is like applying a bandaid to a tumor. It just covers it up, but does nothing to address the underlying issue. Girls dress the way they do for a host of reasons, and educating them about the beauty of tznius in concept–as apposed to clothing–is dealing with the roots, as apposed to the symptom.

    #623825

    Joseph
    Participant

    Think BIG, I will say that you are correct in there being gray areas certainly. But what I will also point out, is that our Chachomim have been defining these gray areas from time immemorial. It isn’t a new phenomenon. And it is appropriate for the Rabbonim to be the decisors in what the halachic gray areas are. Afterall, it is halacha, gray or not.

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