Tznius Again

To the best of my knowledge, neither is Assur, as women don’t have the same issurim in that area as men (i.e. – no Histaklus). Ask your LOR for actual halacha.

No but men should be aware of tznius as well as women.

It is muttar.

When I was a child I remember my father telling me that its not assur but its a sensitivity and I shouldn’t sit and watch them men swim- I could go into the pool area to get something but not sit there and gaze….

what makes you say that? I happen to be very lucky- my father is the most amazing person around. He is such a main public figure and there for everyone but makes time for all of us. If not for him I’m not sure I would be so frum today….

I dont understand what in my story made you say that.

is that true?

it didnt even occur to me she thought i was being sarcastic

I WASNT BEING SARCASTIC, not in the least

your description of what your father told you showed great caring for the Yiddish Neshama of his little daughter. thats why i said you are fortunate to have such a father.

I think this thread is a total lack of Tznius. Maybe even worse than the actual issue.

RB, no it isn’t. It was a legitimate question, with legitimate answers.

RB: There are many things in the Torah, that to the ignorant eye seem to be untzniusdig to read, to learn, to discuss. But can that be that ANYTHING in the Torah should be considered untzniusdig Chalila? The story of Dina and Shechem, Yehudah and Tamar, anything about Sodom, the halacha of isha Sota, Hilchos zav and zava… I could go on and on. When there is a legitimate reason to discuss something, there is no lack of tnzius unless the person discussing it displays a lack of of derech eretz and tznius in word or deed. You may surely have a dissenting view RB, but it does not make yours more correct than anyone else’s view.

I’d love to meet the teen who felt the way I wrote…. a good shidduch prospect for my grandchildren. Not quite yet though.

We need to increase tzniyius in speech, dress, deal in stores, even the way we walk. Tzniyus is not about dress. dress is part of Tzniyus. Eating in the street, shouting in the street, walking in a way that does not engender respect for Judaism are all various levels of a breach of Tzniyus. The women by the pool is certainly not acceptable. Test yourself. If an adam gadol went for a swim do you think he would feel comfortable if you stood there watching him? It is a litmus test. If you knew you would meet a Rav Chashuv in the street would you be licking your cone in teh street?? Would you eat at a table in the middle of the street?? The Chashuvim are a mashal for Hashem. The beginning of Shulcha Aruch beseeches us to act as if the Shechina is opposite us. because HE is!!

I agree with RB. It is subtly untzniusdik for males and females to discuss TOGETHER details of the halachos of Tznius.

OOmis – how far would you take your view. Would you be OK with men and women discussing Orach Chaim Siman 220 together?

RABBAIM said “Just as one cannot say a bracha when wearing a bathing suit unless he covers himself up because of “erva”…..”

by definition if one (a male) is wearing a bathing suit there is no issue of “erva”

also see orach chaim 74:6

on the ball:

orach chaim 220 discusses what to do for a bad dream. You probably meant 240

As I do not know precisely what is in Orach Chaim siman 220, I cannot intelligently respond to that. My guess is, that since you mention it, probably it contains material not best suited for a mixed group discussion. That is not the same as asking if it is untzniusdig for a girl to see male in a swim suit, which is a perfectly legitimate question, if we have already been discussing ad infinitum the tzniusdig dress code for women on this forum.

Basket of radishes (love the name), I happen to agree with you. I personally feel uncomfortable when I see guys walking around without shirts (which is often seen when you are in a beach locale, but not at the beach).

oomis – I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Adocs- much appreciate your reply. Rav Pam zt”l said that for Brachos, any part of the body which is normally covered and is now uncovered has a din of Erva regarding reciting Brachos just as it has a din that if you touch that part of the body you must wash your hands before davening, learning or reciting a Bracha. He told his Talmidim to try to educate campers in camp who may play ball in shorts that if they want to make a Bracha prior to taking a drink they should place a towel to cover the legs not covered by the shorts. While others may say that it is the proper exposure for summer, he did not feel that way.

perhaps there should be shvimkleid for men too!

Ossur? Probably not.

Something to be avoided? I’d say yeah.

It breaks a boundary that should not be tampered with.

I dont go into mens swimming areas if i could help it.

I was at a hotel one summer and my husband and a couple of his friends were in the pool. There was maybe 2 or 3 middle aged or older men there. My then 2 young children wanted to go with him and being that there was no lifeguard on duty, I went in and only watched my kids. If a man was in my view, i saw him only because he was right there. A few minutes later oen of the older guys comes over to me and harshly tells me to leave as it isnt proper for me to be there cuz people change in the pool area (this was an indoor pool)

I was highly insulted because i was standing at the edge of the pool at the shallow end and the older men were in the deeper end. Its not like i was there to enjoy watching my husband swim, it was for safety. But i did understand him at the same time..there’s a way to say it though..I got my kids and left.

The folowing is from poster “otr” in this thread here http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lo-taturu-and-women

????? ?????? ????? ?”? – “??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????

????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???”

??? ?????? ???? ??”? “??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???????

??? ?????? ???”? “???? ????? ????? ???? ??????

Basically, the issur of histaklus does not just apply to men, it also applies to women.

Posters also kept mentioning that there’s a Shevet HaLevi that holds Lo Sassuru also applies to women (though I’m not sure where).

Also, there’s a Sefer Chinuch that says Lo Sassuru is a generic issur to not do or think of anything Ta’avadik. http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37518&st=&pgnum=48

Being that there can be an issur de’oraysa of histaklus for women to look at other men, I would be careful to not mattir looking at men at the pool, and there may even be an issur of Lifnei Iver for the men.

Disclaimer: I am not a posek. At all.

yitay:First, even if there is an issur with a woman having lewd thoughts a man who is an ervah, that doesn’t mean that she is as likely to have those lewd thoughts simply by looking at men, as men are by looking at women. I’m not saying they aren’t, but if you want to make issurim you have to prove it.

I was clear with my words to not use the word assur. I said there “can be an issur de’oraysa of histaklus” and that I would be “careful not to mattir”. I said “can be assur” because

a) It all depends on the woman’s intentions.

b) I also think that there may be others that are cholek, for example the Sefer Hachinuch’s pshat on Lo Sassuru is a da’as yochid. (Although, there are other shittos that assur for other reasons). However, a Rishon is a Rishon, and I wouldn’t be so quick to matir against him either.

Second, the three sources you cite are not generally regarded as the most authoritative sefarim when it comes to halacha.

That is all I found. If you can find me something else, great. However, some of those sources learnt that histaklus (for pleasure) is the same issur as men looking at women (for pleasure), which there is plenty of sources for. I’m sure there are differences, because a woman looking at a not-fully dressed man is not looking at an Erva, whereby vice-versa most definitely is.