July 24, 2012 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1087356miritchkaMember
I’m shocked at what some people are saying and I dont believe for a minute that they can really mean what they are saying. All those posts have to have been made only to stir up our emotions and come to the realization that we all have something in this realm of tznius to correct/upkeep.July 24, 2012 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1087357
choppy: Source please?
The Hunter: However big of a nisayon it is not to look, for some of us it’s at least as intense a nisayon to not dress that way. Depending on the female, it’s sometimes harder for us.
WIY: “A girl who is not covering her knees very likely watches movies and reads magazines”
Sweetheart, it’s two different struggles. Maybe that’s true for some, but there are many girls who feel they have better things to do with their time then watch movies and read magazines because they are obsessed with chessed, they just have a very difficult time conforming to your view of halachic tzniut. On the flipside, there are also many girls who watch movies and do dress tzanua. So they are clearly unrelated.
Everyone: It’s very easy to have nailed a mitzva and then brand everyone who has not yet conquered the mitzva as a ‘goy’. Everyone has an obligation to elevate themselves so this world is a better place (I speak for myself as well), but work on yourselves before you start dictating to others your interpretation of G-d’s word. Or find the source (from a sefer, not some loosely translated English novel) before you begin to preach.July 24, 2012 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1087358
ohr chodosh: One is obligated to give mussar when they feel the person will listen. Additionally if one does give mussar, it needs to come from a place of love for the mitzva and for their fellow Jew, not from a place of contempt or disgust of the other person.
You should not give mussar in a circumstance where you risk pushing the other person further, which unfortunately is frequently the case when it comes to tzniut.July 24, 2012 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1087359
interjection: You could claim the same thing about a Yid who eats cheeseburgers in McDonalds every day for lunch.
Yes, the tochacha must be given out of love and care. And in the vast majority of the time, including tznius issues, that is in fact the case.
I agree with WIY that there is a very strong correlation between people who watch movies or read inappropriate novels and tznius problems.July 24, 2012 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1087360yeshiva guyParticipant
Cut the Brooklyn game, I see same issue in Monsey and Lakewood! (Gulp!)July 24, 2012 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1087361bptParticipant
* as if she is in Vegas
* she can ask her sons not to look
* the torah says we have to look out for each other
* when a woman goes out improperly
* if she is NOT dressed as a Jewish woman should be
All good points, so let me adress each one, as they all boil down to the same answer:
By whose standards are we setting the bar? Did you know that many people feel that today’s fashion of shells over a long sleeve top are total pritzus? And there are people that feel if your wife does not wear honey colored # 70s, she is not dressed tzniusdig?
As far as looking out for one another, try this: Set an example, and have others follow you. But beware of a nasty side effect: If you dress like a rebbetzin, yet are less than 100% in your behavoir, you are possibly doing more damage than your flip-flop clad counterpart who is a real erlicheh person.July 24, 2012 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1087362
bpt: If any public movement causes the hemline to rise above the knee, it is a violation of the Torah’s standards.July 24, 2012 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1087363
ohr chodosh: “You could claim the same thing about a Yid who eats cheeseburgers in McDonalds every day for lunch.”
Exactly my point. Just because you feel you have an obligation to say something doesn’t mean you will be helpful if you do.
“If any public movement causes the hemline to rise above the knee, it is a violation of the Torah’s standards.”
Source?July 24, 2012 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1087364
Shulchan Aruch (and the shutz).
This is as basic halacha, as basic gets.July 24, 2012 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1087365Yellow123Member
Oh my goodness. Enough with the tzniyus rants already. As one poster already correctly said everyone is here in this world and working on their own struggles. Some are easier to see but all are real and personal. If we were perfect we would already be in the next world. So maybe your challenge isn’t tzniyus but it is something else. Work on yourself first. Your self righteous posts do not inspire ANYONE to be more tzniyus.July 24, 2012 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1087366thehockMember
Shivisi Hashem linegdi samid – there’s a reason this is our opening line in halacha. Tznius is an obligation regardless of whether a thousand men or no men are looking at you.
@bpt not sure what you’re trying to say about the shells, but when that is taken to an extreme, it is not how most women I know with yiras Shamayim would anticipate greeting Moshiach.July 24, 2012 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #1087367ToiParticipant
people can rant about tznius. thats not a bad thing. people also need to work on their personal struggles. thats not a bad thing. but telling people that its not a problem; now thats a bad thing.July 24, 2012 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #1087368
Ohr Chodesh: Specific source please (I’m not disagreeing with you, just asking you to provide a specific source, which I highly doubt that you can).July 24, 2012 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1087369
Shulchan Aruch (and the shutz).
Siman & Sif? (Just to prove it to everyone)July 24, 2012 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1087370zaidy78Participant
How could it be, that when you look at pictures of 30 – 40 years ago, (my parents wedding album, for example) the dress code is seemingly far worse than it is today?
Could it be that what we decide on as a community, becomes “whats halachacally acceptable”?
Whats “pritzus” in Willy, may be “rebitzenny” in monsey!
Doesn’t pantyhose count as a “covering” from a purely halacha perspective? Maybe not a community standard, but from a halacha point-of-view???July 24, 2012 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #1087371
Of course pantyhose alone, without a skirt, is completely insufficient from a strictly halachic standpoint.
If they were neglectful 30-40 years ago (and often they were), it does not provide license to remain neglectful today.July 24, 2012 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1087372a maminParticipant
Why is it that so many of you are intimidated by this thread? Why , when hearing about higher levels of tznius than your own, do you get so upset? I think you all need to really look inside of yourself and reevaluate where these feelings are really coming from? I can totally respect people who take upon themselves higher levels of tznius than my own. I never feel intimidated by it. I look up to their maidrega. Why can’t you?July 24, 2012 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #1087373
ohr chodosh: I went to Bais Yaakov and have asked countless times, whether publicly or privately, if anyone knows the actual source, but I’ve never seen or heard it quoted from a source. Everyone believes it’s in the Shulchan Aruch and I believe it too since everyone else does, but if you want us to keep it, what is the actual wording?July 24, 2012 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #1087374
Interjection: The issue with these Halachos is that they are not explicitly stated anywhere. The closest we come is in Orach Chayim (somewhere in the early-to-mid 70s; 74 maybe) where the Shulchan Aruch says what is an Ervah that is Assur to say a Davar Shebikdusha when you see them. The reason is that since these areas cause certain thoughts more than others when men see them, therefore you may not say a Davar Shebikdusha when they are within sight. From that, it’s obvious to understand why they must be covered in public at all times. The point is they are much more likely to cause men to sin, therefore they must be covered. (R’ Schachter gives an example in several situations that revolve around the fact that the Gemara calls all of these body parts-thigh, upper arm, hair, etc.-an Ervah. He says that everyone obviously wouldn’t walk in public completely naked. Halachah considers showing these body parts being completely naked. So why would we treat them any differently?)
After that, though, the issue becomes a bit more muddy. Just from this, for example, wearing only pants or thick pantyhose would seemingly be okay. There would be no problem with having clothes that are way too tight. Everyone obviously agrees that these are problematic. So there is a second issue, aside from just being Halachically “naked” in public, that any clothes that are too attracting are not allowed. That there is no source for and is probably dictated by societal standards and common sense (i.e. even if society accepts something that is objectively too attracting, that wouldn’t make it okay; but if society says that something is too attracting, it would be problematic to wear even if it’s objectively not too attracting). And even though it would not be inherently Assur to say D’varim Shebikdusha in front of a woman wearing, for example, tight pants, the problem with that is obvious.July 24, 2012 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1087375
The actual wording is shok bisha erva.
There are different psaks as to what is erva. Some say (including the Chazon Ish, Chofetz Chaim and Rav Kook) that even below the knee (calf) is erva and you have to cover until the feet. Others say below the knee can be uncovered. But everyone agrees above the knee is erva and must be covered (in all movements and positions).July 24, 2012 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #1087376
“Siman & Sif? (Just to prove it to everyone)”
OC, we are still waiting? Have you ever seen the Gemorah Brachos (third perek) inside? Know what it is discussing? Or are you just an Am HaAretz spouting what you hear from your Sem teacher?
Siman & Sif!July 24, 2012 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1087377
Sam2: It seems more that it’s up to debate what should be covered. That there is no set in stone from the Torah…. So what is ervah? Everyone here says knees, elbows, collarbone. I learned it’s a tefach above the knee and elbow and a tefach below the collarbone.
gavra: Please tell me what it says in the third perek of Brachos. It is a huge struggle for me and it will be some motivation if I know exactly what it says.
I really want to keep all the halachot to the fullest letter of the law! It is made so much more difficult when we know the Torah says one thing, but in this regard, the entire halacha is based on hearsay. I want to know what the Torah expects.July 24, 2012 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1087378
interjection: If OC doesn’t deal with the question by tomorrow, then I’ll discuss. You can also search older threads.July 24, 2012 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1087379
Interjection: It’s Orach Chayim 74, I believe. And while some Shittos do hold that you have a Tefach above the elbows and knees, those are minority opinions that are not accepted l’ma’aseh. There are other Shittos about a lot of things, but the accepted opinions L’ma’aseh are elbows, knees, and collarbones. And trust me, you don’t want to know what I personally hold.July 24, 2012 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1087380
Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 75:1
As I said, you need the poskim to translate. See:
Mishna Brura 75:2
Chazon Ish, Orach Chaim 16:8
And see the Gemora Berochos 24a about erva, using the above as your guide.July 24, 2012 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1087381
Every normative halachic opinion holds that everything above the knee (and elbow) must ALWAYS be covered in public. In every possible position, angle and movement.July 24, 2012 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1087382bptParticipant
“any….movement ..the hemline to rise above the knee, …is a violation of the Torah’s standards. “
Granted. But the OP is talking about women who measure the hemline in CMs and wear clothing one size too small. Everything is covered, and the tichel is also (just) within the allowable limit.
Bottom line is, tznius is something that each family needs to address.
We need to stop thinking enforcment (which is impossible).
The new word is compliance. This works when you have people who want to be a part of your (and the greater community’s) ideal. If we present a picture that shows promise and happiness, people will flock to our ranks.
If we present a picture of hypocracy (I’ll not list particulars, but hamaven yovin) then why should someone want to join us?July 24, 2012 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1087383
OC: Good. What does Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 75 discuss? What a woman should and should not be doing? Or something else like MEN and what they may or may not see while reading Kriyas Shema?
I believe your source should have been Even HaEzer 21:2, where the Shulchan Aruch actually discusses women. See the Bais Shmuel there, you may find it interesting & informative (in a good way).July 24, 2012 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1087386csr1Participant
I guess because I am a man, I don’t understand: but what is the yetzer hora to show your knees? Does it give women such pleasure to show their knees? If your not allowed to show your knees, just don’t show them. Why such a problem?July 24, 2012 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1087387
How do I find the Chazon Ish you mentioned?July 24, 2012 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1087388
Orach Chaim is one of the sections of Shulchan Aruch.
Yup. Knew that one. It just doesn’t discuss Tznius (there. It does in 240, but I don’t think you mean that type of Tznius).July 24, 2012 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1087390
Additional problems are the snoods and tichels that are worn all the way on back of the head, ctainly showing a lot more than a tefach of hair (which Rav Tauber said is just as serious as not covering the hair at all!), not to mention the problems with the clothing itself. I understand that some feel it’s up to the woman herself how Frum she wants to be and how it’s her choice how to dress, but when other women see it and then emulate it (which is prevalent in Flatbush…some women started the trend, now it’s the norm) then she is responsible for causing others to sin, and also for causing men to sin when they see her. It’s not like she’s committing an Aveiros privately and it’s her own business….she’s out there affecting other innocent people who will be caused to sin through her inappropriate lack of Tznius.July 24, 2012 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1087391July 24, 2012 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #1087392
It’s not practical to have to address personally every woman who’s not dressed with Tznius. You can’t go up to numerous women you don’t know and tell each one what they’re doing wrong. I be,I’ve its incumbent upon the Rov of their Shull to do so. I couldn’t believe what I saw outside a well-known large Shull on Rosh Hashana this year and how 75% of the women walking in there looked like! It looked more like Times Square than a Flabish Shull. And I believe that Rov should be addressing their husbands if he can’t get through to them.July 24, 2012 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1087393WIYMember
“And I believe that Rov should be addressing their husbands if he can’t get through to them.”
I suggest you call this Rav and discuss it with him. I am very curious to know what he will say.July 24, 2012 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #1087394vochindikMember
There should be an asifa among all the kehilos to address this issue. The problem is humongous and affects almost all kehilos.July 25, 2012 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1087395CuriosityParticipant
Why can’t we just all agree that we should try to emulate our Avos and Imahos? Avraham “didn’t know Sarah’s beauty” after years of marriage, until she slightly lifted her dress to step over a puddle and her ankle showed. I’m not saying you should wear dresses that drag on the floor, but it’s obvious that Sarah imeinu felt that even that level of tznius wasn’t over the top. We should try to do our hishtadlus by doing what we are comfortable with, while striving to become better in our yiras shamoim and keeping of the mitzvos. There’s a concept of ‘bare minimum’, which is the line between issur and heter, but that’s not what we should be striving for. I think that’s the root of the problem here. It’s not tznius, it’s that we, collectively (yes, including myself), sometimes take pride in mastering the art of being as goyish as possible without crossing that bare minimum borderline of issur and heter. This isn’t an art, its a boosha.
Interjection, I don’t know your background, or why this is a nisayon for you, but if it’s worth anything, I hope the following gives you some chizuk: Men are attracted to tznius. A lack of tznius causes lust, not love. You can pick which one you’re truly after. The fact that a tznius girl gets less attention and “eyeballing” from the opposite gender, is solely because she is more respectable than the girl who looks like “an easy catch”, not because she is less attractive.July 25, 2012 1:29 am at 1:29 am #1087396mw13Participant
“I am a mid-twenty year old married woman and I can tell you honestly that when I get dressed to go out in the morning, I say a small tefillah to HKBH asking Him to help that no man sin at my fault.”
Wow. I can only hope and pray that I end up near you in the next world.
“Oh my goodness. Enough with the tzniyus rants already… everyone is here in this world and working on their own struggles.”
True, and among those struggles are a) being mekayim the chiyuv of hochayach tocheiach es amisecha and b) standing up for Hashem’s Torah when it is being publicly and blatantly disregarded.
And just out of curiosity, if every is here in the world to work only on their own struggles, why are you so busy ranting about other people ranting?
“…there is a second issue, aside from just being Halachically “naked” in public, that any clothes that are too attracting are not allowed. That there is no source for and is probably dictated by societal standards and common sense (i.e. even if society accepts something that is objectively too attracting, that wouldn’t make it okay; but if society says that something is too attracting, it would be problematic to wear even if it’s objectively not too attracting). And even though it would not be inherently Assur to say D’varim Shebikdusha in front of a woman wearing, for example, tight pants, the problem with that is obvious.”
Very well put, and I couldn’t agree more.July 25, 2012 4:19 am at 4:19 am #1087397oomisParticipant
that any clothes that are too attracting are not allowed”
Anything that attracts undue attention is not good. Correct? Then I would say that the garb worn by certain groups of frum Yidden, would seem to be problematic as well, as they surely cause a great deal of attention to be paid to their wearers. An argument could be made for ANYTHING, if one wants to argue. My daughter was told she could not wear a floor length completely tzniusdig black skirt, because people were looking at those skirts along with the too short ones that others wore.July 25, 2012 4:32 am at 4:32 am #1087398
Curiosity: That would help if it’s approval I’m after. I asked for the sources because the reason I keep the Torah is because I know following the Torah to its entirety will lead me to live the best life possible. Those feel good answers do nothing. I want to do it because I know it’s what G-d expects and not because those I encounter will like me more or less.
csr1: Why can’t we just do it? I’ve spoken to other girls who also struggle like I do. For some it was the lack of attention that bothered them, but for others, like me, it’s more psychological. I can explain the thought process if you feel you must know, but suffice it to say that it’s physically difficult for someone who struggles with it. Some women have mastered it so it’s easy for them to preach but for others it’s a very real nisayon that must be dealt with centimeter by centimeter. It’s not as simple as “If you’re not allowed to show your knees, just don’t show them.” You’re not allowed to talk lashon hara, but is it so easy to “just not say it”?
The biggest thing in Judaism is to be shomer the bris, it’s what elevates us from every other people. It has to be this difficult because it’s so important! The same way women will never understand the male struggle, men will never understand why women have such a hard time.July 25, 2012 4:54 am at 4:54 am #1087399choppyParticipant
At the very least, one shouldn’t justify it. There is a big difference between one person who speaks loshon hora, knows it’s wrong, doesn’t go around saying that talking l”h is okay, accepts mussar that l”h is wrong and hopes to stop soon; and another person who talks loshon hora, thinks it’s okay, goes around justifying himself and telling people there’s nothing wrong with it, and tells people who speak out against l”h to shut up. Same principle with tznius.July 25, 2012 5:31 am at 5:31 am #1087400
I don’t think anyone’s intention was to make it seem less chamur than it is. All they are saying is that they are working on it at their own pace with or without your help. Your unsolicited advice just makes it that much more difficult.
If the mussar came from someone they respected, they would likely take the lesson and attempt to apply it. However to someone they feel does not come with such pure motivation, they may justify themselves.
Regarding lashon hara, the Chofetz Chaim was known to have been a shmoozer. The reason people were actually willing to learn his sefer was because they knew it was a struggle he definitely understood!
For mussar coming from a woman (or man) who cannot fathom the difficulty it is for some, is a slap in the face to someone who makes the choice of the length of their skirt every minute of the day. Yes, I know you have an obligation to the Torah to protect its values regarding tzniut. But is that really what its about? Or does your rebuke come from jealousy, hate or disrespect for the other person. Pinchas obviously did have pure intentions, but if your intentions are from anything at all other than a sincere love for the mitva, you’re probably better off keeping quiet.July 25, 2012 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1087401
There are THREE (really four) different aspects of what is known as “Tznius” (which is like calling lighting a fire on shabbos “Mukzta”). They are:
2: Das Moshe/Yehudis
1: Ervah is a din in Kriyas Shema (which is why the halchos are in Keriyas Shema). Many Rishonim hold it applies to other brachos as well. The idea is that a Davar Sheb’kedusha may not be done/said before any Ervah. That includes for a man (as per the Gemorah Brachos) a woman’s hair, shok, etc. This has NOTHING to do with the general idea of a man looking at a lady. See Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 75 for more details.
2: Das Moshe/Yehudis is what the Torah perscribes that a female should not have uncovered when she goes out in public. This includes hair of anyone who is not a Besulah (as per Even HaEzer 21:2). The Mishna in Kesubos (72B) differentiates between the two. Ayin Shom. (Rav Moshe IIRC also has some teshuvos on the matter).
3: Tznius: There is a general concept of Hatznya Leches. This applies to both males & females, both in manner of dress and action, to be “low-key”. (There are also halachos of Tnzius in OC 240, which I will ignore for this discussion). An example is a woman covering her hair in her own yard (a private domain), where there is no Chiyuv (seemingly even if others will see her), but there is a concept of “Tznius”. (Offen a Bais Shemuel in Even HaEzer). In general, Chassidim are more Machmir in this.
4: Histaklus: A man may not stare at a woman. Period. If he does, he is Over “Lo Tasuru”. It certainly is a good thing for women to make sure that men have no reason to stare at them, but unless it is “Trai Ivri Nahara”, then it is not “Lifnei Iver”.
I hope this clears things up. This is from memory & is not fully comprehensive, so if you have sources that I missed, you are probably correct.July 25, 2012 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1087402RebRYMember
I am not frum from birth and it really disappoints me to see how a lot of Yidden have fallen. How so many people try to debate and get of out doing mitzvos for Hashem. It says i think in the 3rd or 4th perek in Mesilas Yeshurim how foolish the people are who say ” I don’t need to be the biggest tzadik with a front row seat in Gan Eden as long as I am not a rasha in gehenem.” and when it comes to such a person regarding a gashmiusdike thing he just can’t stand that yener has a better car or house then him or something else but really the ikur is yener velt and the only way to get higher there is through mitzvos in this world. I have been from for over 7 years and B”H have been learning the whole time. all of you who are defending the way these women dress should be ashamed of your selves. The real erliche yidden everyone usually looks at as “extreme” and people look up to these people who don’t do the rutzen Hashem. luckily I live in a chaissdish community and things are not as bad as they are in the other more americanized modern communities but we have are problems too and don’t say I don’t know about other types of Yiddden besides for Chasidim because I have seen them too and became Chasidish by choice after experiencing the other groups because I was searching for real authentic Yiddishkeit and B”H have found it. don’t get me wrong there are very erliche yidden by the litvish also like Rav Elyashuv ZT”L who served the Aibishter 24/7.July 25, 2012 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #1087403
What do these mean: “Ayin Shom” “Trai Ivri Nahara”July 25, 2012 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #1087404
GAW: Igros Moshe CM 2:12 (maybe 2:11) mentions that the only thing a woman violates when she goes outside not dressed properly is an Issur Asei. So it’s clear that there’s no Lifnei Iver. What’s unclear is why he doesn’t also mention that she’s Machshil Es Harabbim.July 25, 2012 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1087405brotherofursParticipant
i’ve heard that IN ORDER TO CHANGE THE WORLD (OR OTHER PEOPLE) YOU HAVE TO CHANGE YOURSELF.
..also just wanted to add that i know mannnnnyyy girls sadly, who would LIKE to dress in a tziniut way, but they’re parents disapprove and they have a hard time at home. 🙁 we should never judge someone!July 26, 2012 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1087406
The women we are discussing are MARRIED women who should know better. They are wearing the requisite (very long) Shaitels but the rest of the clothing would make you think the person is not Frum. Don’t they see what they’re teaching their daughters? That they are objects? That they have no real self respect and will sell themselves out just to get a stare or some attention? I’m not clear on the explanation that “you don’t understand the struggle we’re going through and our yetzer hara which makes us want to dress like that!” what exactly is the pleasure you are deriving from wearing a short skirt and tight clothes and being stared at as if you are a floozy. Is it knowing that men are looking? Is it revenge against your husband who is used to you and maybe doesn’t look at you or compliment you so much any more? What exactly is it doing for you? And aren’t your children more important, instilling proper values in them so they won’t learn to objectify themselves like you do? And what about your Neshama and those of the people you are causing to sin? Think about the next world and or just a moment’s pleasure today!July 26, 2012 2:03 am at 2:03 am #1087407thinkinghardMember
In response to all of you who believe the men ought to improve their shemiras einayim:July 26, 2012 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1087409
I’ll try again:
thinkinghard: That is why Histaklus is Assur. His “glancing” made an impression, even though she was appropriate (your words) & did nothing wrong. Chazal di not require women to be Lovesh Shechorim. Now his Avodah is to not be “Sassur” after that Ta’avah.
- The topic ‘Tznius in brooklyn’ is closed to new replies.