August 2, 2012 5:58 am at 5:58 am #1087516ohr chodeshMember
Sam: He brings that as a good mida; he does NOT say that is an obligation or halacha. So why are you misquoting him to further your agenda, which is demonstrably incorrect?August 2, 2012 11:18 am at 11:18 am #1087517on the ballParticipant
Tahini: I can only say thank you and I hope we have both learned something here. Although I believe you will find reference to amulet use in Rambam too (Rambam will never argue with concepts mentioned in the Gemara) despite his reputation as a ‘rationalist’.
Feif Un: You wrote (concerning amulets):
“…It is entirely valid to take the approach of the Vilna Gaon, The Noda BeYehuda and others that reject their use… ”
– regarding its actual use, agreed, but not to dismiss it as mere superstition which was the point I was addressing, and which no Acharon would come near to saying. The Gemara in Gittin (7th Perek) has 2 Daf that only talk about weird methods of healing various sicknesses which R’ Akiva Eiger, Chasam Sofer and others say are not to be practised today. However, they are not in the category of superstition
You wrote: “Finally, yesh din v’yesh dayon… – essentially you are sayig that no one has any right to question a posek, talmid chochom, or godol, and no one has any right to call out an egregious or uncomfortable fact about their works……………..
Yours is a pretty stifling standard, one that would silence all debate within frum communities. You may think that is healthy. I don’t…”
No, sorry you seem to have totally missed my point. Debate in Halachah is encouraged and one is permitted to question anything using one’s logic and knowledge. However I believe there are some basic caveats to this:
1) Not to make personal attacks against anybody but especially against a Talmid Chochom.
2) To use only Torah methodology and logic in formulating an argument – and not allow personal bias cloud that. As I mentione in an earlier post, this is very difficult in areas such as Tznius which impacts our way of life every day, in the public arena concerning our individuality and self-expression.
3) Ultimately to submit to greater authorities than ourselves even if we disagree or do not understand.
You wrote “And again, if these who are being “insulting” are truly in the wrong, they will be accountable to the aibishter at the end of their days, not to you.”
– Agreed, and I am unclear why you would believe I ever indicated otherwise.August 2, 2012 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1087518lesschumrasParticipant
Ohr chodosh , why is that a good middahAugust 2, 2012 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #1087519Sam2Participant
Ohr Chodesh: I am not furthering any agenda. I do not recall that being a misquote but if it is I will double-check (that will take a while as I do not have access to the Sefer at the moment nor will I anywhere soon. If anyone else has it maybe they could quote it for us.)August 2, 2012 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1087520
Ohr Chadash – even if one brings something down as a good middah, if that person is choshuv it leaves the implication that NOT doing so is NOT a good middah. As a result, people start to forget that something has been SUGGESTED as being a good thing to do, and begin to believe that others who do NOT do it, are in the wrong (which we know is not the case). Would you agree with that statement?August 2, 2012 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1087521Feif UnParticipant
on the ball: I think you mixed me up with yichusdik. I never wrote that!August 2, 2012 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1087522Sam2Participant
On the ball: The Rambam disagrees with non-rationalistic concepts in the Gemara all the time, especially in the Moreh. I am not familiar with what he says about amulets, but I guarantee that it’s miles away from what R’ Yehonasan Eyebeshutz should have said.August 2, 2012 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #1087524on the ballParticipant
Feif Un: Yes – really sorry it was meant for Yichusdik.
GAW: Glad to say I have no objection to this post as you at no point attacked Rav Falk personally. Your comparison to Rav Linzer is legitimate insofar as it is a derech that is not for you.August 2, 2012 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1087525OneOfManyParticipant
Ohr Chodosh is correct that Rabbi Falk does not teach things as “halacha”. It is the sems & high schools that take his “suggestions” and force them on the girls as “halacha”. Then, when they get married and find out it was all false and has no basis in Halacha, they dress in tight clothes and claim that the whole concept of a woman’s dress in halacha is made up (bringing us back to “Tznius in Brooklyn”).
This.August 3, 2012 2:35 am at 2:35 am #1087526ThePurpleOneMember
everyone cud keep THEYR standerds of tznius while imagning that if mashiach wud come TODAY- wud they be embarrased of wat theyr wearing in front on sara and avraham?!? wud theyr skirt be too short or teight? its jst something to think abt…August 3, 2012 5:01 am at 5:01 am #1087527
“everyone cud keep THEYR standerds of tznius while imagning that if mashiach wud come TODAY- wud they be embarrased of wat theyr wearing in front on sara and avraham?!? wud theyr skirt be too short or teight? its jst something to think abt… “
I would respectfully remind you that we do not live in the time of Sara and Avraham. Or did Avraham wear a Borsalino, white shirt and black suit?August 3, 2012 8:21 am at 8:21 am #1087528ToiParticipant
oomis- the point is a valid one. if you would put on sopmething more tznius if you were going to get a bracha from a famous gadol because that usual skirt just doesnt feel right, not because your putting on something nicer likavod, that should be a giveaway that its not good enough to begin with. im sure youre going to tell me that you want to be more tznius in front of a gadol etc., but i dont think anyone in meah shearim makes that cheshbon or has that problem. im not saying you should dress like them, but you should attmept to not have the problem either. and if youre going to a gadol, hes probably alive.August 3, 2012 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1087529WolfishMusingsParticipant
If you were going to get a bracha from a famous gadol
If I was going to receive a bracha from a famous gadol, I’d probably put on my best suit. Does that mean I’m obligated to wear it all the time? Or that I even should?
The WolfAugust 3, 2012 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1087530Feif UnParticipant
Toi: Generally, whenever my wife and I go to anyone’s house, we’ll dress in the way they want people to dress in their home. Their home, their rules. If we’re going to meet up outside the home (like at a restaurant, park, or something else like that), we’ll dress the way we usually dress.August 3, 2012 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1087531choppyParticipant
If someone dresses non-tznius, but will dress tznius to meet a Rov (or Moshiach), that is an indication that she is dressing non-tznius other times, and should mend her ways.August 3, 2012 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #10875322scentsParticipant
That is correct, we are in different times. However I dont think that it makes sense to argue that the way we dress has greatly been influenced by the modern world.
Further more, the modern world has taken the dress code to a new low.August 3, 2012 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1087533
Firstly, I believe I dress b’tznius all the time. Second, if I were lucky enough to be meeting a Gadol, much less getting a bracha from one, I would be dressed yom tovdig. I do not dress like that every day, nor would I, as then it would not be special for Sahbbos and yom tov.August 3, 2012 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #1087534gavra_at_workParticipant
If someone dresses non-tznius, but will dress tznius to meet a Rov (or Moshiach), that is an indication that she is dressing non-tznius other times, and should mend her ways.
I agree wholeheartedly. If someone dresses not tznius (for example in tanktops & shorts) and will dress differently to meet a Rov, then they should dress Tznius at all times.
I’ll go even further. Even if she doesn’t dress Tznius to meet the rov, she should STILL dress Tznius at all times!
And people say I’m not a Machmir. I’m even more Machmir than Choppy! 🙂August 4, 2012 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #1087535ToiParticipant
i bavorned all your taanos li’eil. stop being thick. you get the point.August 5, 2012 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1087536
However I dont think that it makes sense to argue that the way we dress has greatly been influenced by the modern world.”
The modern world has given the YESHIVAH world its mode of dress. In the early to mid 20th century most non-Jewish men wore black Fedoras, white shirts and black suits.February 15, 2015 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #1087538shtatier.than.youMember
When you see someone doing an aveirah, you’re only supposed to talk to the person about it if you truly think they’ll change. For example, someone who doesn’t even realize that it’s an aveirah. But, when that person is aware of what they’re doing and you know they’re not interested in changing it, you’re not allowed to tell them off for it.June 18, 2015 4:29 am at 4:29 am #1087539duvyfanMember
I solved the tznius clothing issue by learning how to sew. It’s not that hard and not that expensive as I thought it would be. I bought myself very affordable sewing patterns that are tzniusdik and make summer outfits that are k’halacha. I don’t like the layering concept, which according to some are not modest anyway because they are so tight everywhere.June 18, 2015 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #1087540A jew who caresParticipant
After reading the complete and utter apikorsus against rabbonim in this thread, I think I will no longer read the coffee room.
And I don’t envy those who wrote and published the comments.
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