September 12, 2013 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #610595
I’m proposing that Shalom Bayis is more important (as far as HKBH is concerned, not “frumkeit” or “Charaidism”) than Tznius. Prove to me that I’m wrong.
apushatayid, thanks – you’re one of the first to mention talking to the husbands. I agree wholeheartedly – that seems to be a good point.
Completely disagree, unless you want to ruin Shalom Bayis and create divorces. In fact, it is better to not say anything than to cause friction in the home. After all, the Sotah’s hair is uncovered in the Bais HaMikdash (not Tznius!?) to create Shalom. (and FYI, the gemorah cares less about that than Mechikas HaShem).
I thought this worthy of it’s own thread. Is it worth the decrease in Shalom Bayis for additional (or perhaps even minimal) Tznius?September 12, 2013 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #977052
Why didnt you quote my response in that thread. I’ll write it again.
This “After all, the Sotah’s hair is uncovered in the Bais HaMikdash (not Tznius!?) to create Shalom. (and FYI, the gemorah cares less about that than Mechikas HaShem)” is a complete distortion of the gemara.September 12, 2013 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #977053ToiParticipant
sorry, can you restate the point of this thread in simple english? i really dont understand the op.September 12, 2013 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #977054Veltz MeshugenerMember
Shalom bayis based on a lack of tznius is not shalom bayis at all. /my10thgraderebbiSeptember 12, 2013 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #977055
Hashem LIED to Avraham Avinu, in order to protect his and Sara Emainu’s Shalom Bayis. What do you think Hashem kivyachol is Thinking? If there is a MAJOR breach of tznius, then the spouses have much greater problems than a decrease in shalom bayis. If it is minimal, and the couple is happy together, perhaps the additional tznius aspects can be introduced in a loving and non-accusatory way, i.e. “I LOVE how that longer length dress looks on you. You look like a princess!” as opposed to, “Your knees are showing again – didn’t we just HAVE this talk about your lack of tznius?”September 12, 2013 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #977056
Toi: Is it worth a decrease in Shalom Bayis for additional (or perhaps even minimal) Tznius?
APY, because I didn’t see it since it wasn’t approved yet. My response (and we can continue here instead of hijacking that thread:
Yes, and so?
If Tznius was so important, then it (uncovering hair) would not have been allowed in the Sotah ritual. By the fact that it is allowed shows that Shalom Bayis is more important.September 12, 2013 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #977057
Shalom bayis based on a lack of tznius is not shalom bayis at all. /my10thgraderebbi
I have no idea what that means. Mind going back & asking him?September 12, 2013 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #977058
Of course Shalom Bayis should come first. This is common sense. If all religious people put the Bein Adam Lchavairos before the Bein Adam Lmakoms the religious (and rest of the world for that matter) would be a much better placeSeptember 12, 2013 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #977059funnyboneParticipant
Hashem’s name was erased as well in that case. Are you implying that if a spouse wants you to erase His name that you may do it for shalom bayis?? Definitely not!
You need to differentiate between basic shalom bayis (everyone smiling) to extreme cases, where a rav might guide you to disregard issurim/tznius. But don’t come home at night livid that supper isn’t ready, and then give up your basics of yiddishkeit!September 12, 2013 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #977060
funnybone & Oomis: Good points. You would think that the severity of the Tznius & Shalom Bayis should matter.
funnybone: As a side point, why do you say that Tznius is one of the “basics of Yiddishkeit” (unless you are refering to Mechikas Hashem)?September 12, 2013 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #977061Yungerman from LakewoodMember
I also believe that shalom bayis is more important than tznius. But here’s an interesting thought:
What would you do if your wife put on a burka? Would you just accept it for the sake of shalom bayis? Or would you risk a little shalom bayis to preserve your own sanity?
If you pick the second option, can you also understand that to some people, wives dressing tzniusdik is an issue of sanity for themselves, too?
And I’m a borderline atheist! And I still say this because I believe in being honest to one’s self about these issues, and only this way can one discover the truth (if it exists).
Full disclosure: If my wife put on a burka, I’d bite my tongue (as difficult as it is), just as I would want her to bite her tongue when I don’t dress the way she expects of a ben torah (as difficult as it is).September 12, 2013 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #977062Veltz MeshugenerMember
Gavra_at_work said: “I have no idea what that means. Mind going back & asking him?”
This is a feature, not a bug.September 12, 2013 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #977063marty gMember
one of the 3 things that the jews in eygpt kept was that they did not change their clothing this is what helped them keep up ther yidishkeit.September 12, 2013 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #977064ToiParticipant
no. actaully, depends.September 12, 2013 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #977065oy1Member
or it’s Shalom(goodbye) Bayis…
As a wife there’s certain expectations my husband has that we’ve had a mutual understanding about. It’s my responsibility to dress tzniusdikly. We all dress the way we feel is tzanuah at our level. I think my husband would & has told me to return something he feels is too tight/provocative. I feel it gives him the respect he deserves when I dress modestly. It carries into your Shalom Bayis. Keeping your relationship exclusive and intimate.September 12, 2013 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #977066funnyboneParticipant
I guess I just take it for granted that a bas yisroel dressing like a bas yisroel is a basic, like kashrus and shabbos. Do you disagree?September 13, 2013 3:13 am at 3:13 am #977067from Long IslandParticipant
Whenever I purchased anything my husband felt was untznius, he would say to me. Oh Honey, that is stunning, but I hope you will wear it ONLY for me. I got the message loud and clear.September 13, 2013 3:29 am at 3:29 am #977068
What would you do if your wife put on a burka? Would you just accept it for the sake of shalom bayis? Or would you risk a little shalom bayis to preserve your own sanity?”
I always have believed that kol hamosif goreya. Aside from the fact that it is garb by which MUSLIM WOMEN are recognized, it is not what Hashem Asks frum women to do. There are women in E”Y who are starting to dress like this all the time, and I do not 100%believe that normal and healthy feelings of tznius are involved in their desire to do so. JMO, so please do not shoot the messenger. I read an article about this recently, and it made me very uncomfortable. I think it is a problematic practice.September 13, 2013 3:42 am at 3:42 am #977069🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
Whenever I purchased anything my husband felt was untznius, he would say to me. Oh Honey, that is stunning, but I hope you will wear it ONLY for me. I got the message loud and clear.
Love this! Expresses what I was thinking too… it’s all about tact. Telling your wife off about tznius is a lack of respect for her. Respectfully telling her that this is not for out of the house is definitely appropriate in a relationship with proper communication.September 13, 2013 3:58 am at 3:58 am #977070from Long IslandParticipant
My daughter once explained HER interpretation of Tznius which I think truly hits the nail on the head.
She said ” Mommy, it is not the length of your skirt or the length of your sleeves or whether your collarbone is covered, or the color of your suit,your stockings or the style of your shaitel. It is an issue of perception.
If you dress in a way that draws attention (from men, and even other women) whether because your clothes are tight, too short, too bright or too striking that is not tzniusdick.
A woman should dress in a manner that is pleasing and balibatish, BUT if she draws attention, THAT is NOT tznius.”
I think she nailed it in one.September 13, 2013 4:17 am at 4:17 am #977071
I am going to get criticized for my comments but my question is simple: why this preocupation, bordering on the obsession ,with the way women dress? is there anyone in the orthodox world who dresses like a “shikse”? I bet you that even the most so-called “untsni-us” dress in the orthodox world is miles ahead of anything that goes on in the real world. And lastly, who tells the men to look? Why should the poor women suffer and have to wear a sack of potatoes because some men cannot close their eyes? This obsession with minutia is making me sick.September 13, 2013 4:50 am at 4:50 am #977072Torah613TorahParticipant
Tznius of course.
No, Sholom Bayis.
No, Sholom Bayis.
CYLORSeptember 13, 2013 6:03 am at 6:03 am #977073MammeleParticipant
ROB: your comment is wrong on so many fronts I don’t know where to start. I just have two questions. Have you considered that the reason most Orthodox women don’t dress like “shiksas” is precisely because we are busy with this minutiae that’s making you sick? And what kind of Rabbi are you, assuming there’s truth to your user name?September 13, 2013 9:52 am at 9:52 am #977074LeyzerParticipant
IMO the entire thread is based on nothingness.
Why does the Op presume that there * has* to be a clash between SB and Tznius? As many others have said, it is not too hard to gently disapprove to ones wife.
If the Op feels that telling off ones wife for a breach of halacha inevitably becomes a SB issue, I wish him much luck if he discovers his wife texting on Shabbos or eating treif.September 13, 2013 9:57 am at 9:57 am #977075LeyzerParticipant
Why the obsession?
1. Because arayos is an avera that lev hoodom chomeid oson, and requires extra concern.
2. Because it is hard to think of another avera that is as tempting that someone else can cause you to do. Personally I don’t care how they dress at home. Just don’t be machshil me in the street! The street is a reshus harobim and it is the biggest chutspah for someone to dress how they want and compel me as a religious jewellery to have to cope with the nisoyon they unnecessarily create.
3. They don’t have to be as untzniusdig as the goyim, to still be seductive and alluring, and… ossur. Anyway, since when did we set ourselves standards based on the goyim?
4. Why do you think only in extremes. Either a shikse or a sack of potatoes. …. There is plenty of room between that to look nice and still follow the torah!September 13, 2013 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #977077
Leyzer: This is a tangent off of another thread. Read that one to get where we are coming from here. It isn’t that simple.
Torah613Torah: Good answer.
Oomis: The “Burkah women” is a natural reaction to the obsession with Tznius. They may really want to be more “Charaidi” and are moving ahead of the curve. With all the made up Issurim, Burkas are exactly where the “Tznius obsessors” are heading anyway.September 13, 2013 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #977078
Rav Moshe Z’l writes in a teshuva that one need not give his wife a get if she wont cover her hair. However, nowhere in the teshuva does he posit it is because of the importance of shalom bayis. I wish I could cite the teshuva or at the very least where it can be found. Hopefully someone else will find it sooner than me (I have no intention to look for it until sunday at the earliest).
Also, your assumption(?) or is it assertion from the sotah is way off base. The gemara is clear about the importance of shalom between a husband and wife, and it cites the fact that hashem allows his name to be erased, not the fact that he permits pritzus in the beis hamikdash. May I suggest Rashi on the passuk in chumash who explains why we do that. Also see how he translates the word “uncover”.
As for what hashem deems more important, I wont be so presumptious to make such a claim.September 13, 2013 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #977080
If you caught your spouse texting on Shabbos what would you do? (assuming that your in a good place relationship wise)September 13, 2013 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #977081Josh31Participant
Both are essential fences of morality.September 15, 2013 1:43 am at 1:43 am #977082ihearMember
lakewood- i would sit down with them and have a serious discussion about where they are holding in thier personal life and make them make a decsion right then and rhere where they wanna go, bec i wanna live a certain way and i want the person i live with to be that waySeptember 15, 2013 3:26 am at 3:26 am #977083
Interesting…. Even when I fully believed I always knew that if I loved my wife, I wouldn’t let Frumkeit be a “make it or break it” issue for me. I wonder realistically how many people would make it one push comes to shove.September 15, 2013 4:51 am at 4:51 am #977084ihearMember
i can hear both ways but i just feel that there can never be propor shalom bayis there would always be this unresloved tension one bec of the double life and two bec of the fact that the person hid it from me and “conned” me into this relationship why should the innocent spouse have to suffer the rest of their lives bec one person decided to be selfish and marry knowing it was all a facadeSeptember 15, 2013 5:22 am at 5:22 am #977085
Interesting point. Except that people change, very possibly someone was completely frum going into a marriage but lost those beliefs somewhere down the line. Especially if they were married young.
Why would there be tension if the person didn’t con you?September 16, 2013 12:26 am at 12:26 am #977086
religious jewellery “
You mean like a Magen Dovid? 🙂September 16, 2013 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #977087
If there are no kids, I could see there not being tension. If there were, every day would bring more tension, especially for the kids getting mixed messages from the 2 people they look up to the most.September 16, 2013 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #977088
Gavra-at-work and the rest of the modern-leaning chevrah, there are beferushe Gemoros that it is a mitzvah to get divorced if the wife does not conform to the basic laws of tznius — Gittin 90B, Kesuvos 72A and someplace in Sotah.
ROB, don’t you start up!
do not post your messages in bold. if you continue to do this, I will not approve your posts.September 16, 2013 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #977089
MDD, the way we are leaning in some parts of the Yiddishe velt, there is coming a time when a woman not wearing a burka will be considered as being untzniusdig. There ARE basic laws of tznius, but there are also chumrahs, and there are interpretations of what those laws actually mean. Not everyone is in agreement as to what the loshon refers to. There are discussions about what the shok is (i.e., does it or does it not include the knee), how much sei-ar showing from a married woman’s head is considered to be erva, what type of head covering is mandatory, what is permissible within the Halacha, is red assur, or is any bright color? How tight is too tight? Did women really wear STOCKINGS in the midbar?
Yes, there are basic laws of tznius, but there are also rabbonim who hold different opinions as to with how much latitude within the law, one may interpret those laws. I am not chalilah saying we should be lax, but each generation has had its own interpretation in this area, and it is not as glatt an issue, IMO, as you are presenting.September 16, 2013 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #977090
Oomis, what if a lady decides to wear no head covering or, worse yet, a miniskirt? Are these straightforward cases?September 16, 2013 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #977091Yungerman from LakewoodMember
When the first chumra of tznius was introduced back in the days of Yoshiyahu, many people warned that this will cause Judaism to become very extreme, to the point that anyone who woman who doesn’t cover her hair will be considered a prutzah, and her husband can divorced her. This will wreck marriages, we were warned.
But it was decided to go ahead with the chumras anyways, because nobody in their right mind would take it so far as to force women to cover their hair.
The rest is history.
In 1,000 years, if you do not agree that the burka is Torah Misinai, you will be called an apikores.September 16, 2013 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #977092
Yungerman from Lakewood(??!??!?!?!?!…….), what you posted is apikorsus!September 17, 2013 1:04 am at 1:04 am #977093
I am only posting now because mdd brought me into this= as I have not posted for a while. Incidentally, I posted a response to mammele and leyzwer a long time ago but it was not posted so I cannot be bothered to write it again.
However, I fully concur with oomis that the parameters of “tsenyis” are fairly confusing but the rabbonim of this generation have decided to go “lechumro”. So be it- but ,as oomis writes, there are many.many grey areas!September 17, 2013 1:17 am at 1:17 am #977094WIYMember
I hate to break it to you but Tzniyus as a whole is not doing well. On a recent Shabbos here in boro Park we had a chassidush man w white socks walking down the street with a wife wearing what was almost a mini skirt. Many inches above the knee were revealed. Everyone was looking. Going back to the summer there were a lot more knees revealed than ever before. It looks like we lose a few mm a year and we are at a point that many girls and women from regular frum families while standing have their knees showing. Its easy to imagine what a show occurs when these people sit down. Then the whole pointless tug of war occurs which is a losing battle because a second later the thing is riding up again. The issue is quite out of hand and quite bothersome. I see no solution and I only see things getting worse due to the lack of leadership and lack of yiras shomayim so prevalent in our society today.September 17, 2013 1:22 am at 1:22 am #977095WIYMember
Sorry I dont see any chumros on my streets. I see frum women and girls nebach not keeping basic laws of Tzniyus. In a few years time only the frumest Chassidish and Yeshivish will be covering knees I see it coming. I see regular women married to kollel guys with troublesome lengths to their skirts these days and the styles keep getting shorter.September 17, 2013 1:40 am at 1:40 am #977096yaakov doeParticipant
Yungerman from Lakewood
1000 years from now Moshiach would have come and settled all of these questions. I assume he won’t advocate burkas or shaitels, but other means of covering hair.
Tznuis is declining along with skirt lengths in Flatbush, Marine Park, the 5 Towns and even the heilig Boro Park and the skirts are getting tighter.
Could it be the manufacturers are just trying to use less fabric or have the women lowered their standards?September 17, 2013 2:40 am at 2:40 am #977097
Can someone enlighten me and tell me where do we find that knees have to be covered? I know about hair and I know about “tefach megulah’ but knees? Additionally,if a woman is wearing stockings (and I presume most of BoroPark is), why is the knee so inportant? I am asking this in a genuine quest for the truth.September 17, 2013 3:08 am at 3:08 am #977098
ROB, because “shok be’ishah ervah” — it provokes ta’avah and hirhurim. That’s the reason for the Halochah. This is what the accepted psak is. You don’t know enough to question it. You either just lack “the ruach of tahorah” (look in Sotah 3A) or some individuals might have a different chemical balance, so they don’t feel it.September 17, 2013 3:16 am at 3:16 am #977099Sam2Participant
ROB is not wrong in that technically if tights (non-skin colored) that are thick enough are worn then there is no issue of Giluy Ervah. Not that that’s the only issue.September 17, 2013 3:59 am at 3:59 am #977100Josh31Participant
Those who live in BP and feel Tzniyus there is not up to snuff are obligated to move to places that they know meet their standards.September 17, 2013 4:12 am at 4:12 am #977101r9913Member
Maybe we should stay inside our log-cabins and warm the fire wood, and wear dresses with three layered petticoats underneath and don’t forget the bonnets!September 17, 2013 4:15 am at 4:15 am #977102
Oomis, what if a lady decides to wear no head covering or, worse yet, a miniskirt? Are these straightforward cases? “
People are ALREADY doing this. There is no question that these are serious issues, but I know there are rabbonim who in the past mattired some of these things. I certainly do NOT advocate for such liberalism, but neither will I call a woman a prutzah for failing to cover her hair (if married), or for wearing a shorter length skirt.
Pritzus is not only about what is covered up or not. It is about one’s behavior and demeanor. I have seen some very pritzusdig behavior in women who were covered from neck to ankle, and some exemplary eidelkeit in girls who were wearing shorts and a sleeveless shirt. And btw, MEN can be as guilty or more so, of pritzus in their own behavior, and not with frum women. V’hamayvin yavin.
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