October 13, 2009 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #662350A600KiloBearParticipant
You can put a chador on over a shell and a burqa on over just about anything and it will be kosher. If you follow this minhag, tin foil or orange plastic is most recommended for your chador or burqa. As is well known said tin foil or plastic should not come from a tzioinish source.
Mekor: “Extreme Tznius for Real Dummies” by Rebbetzin Izevel Tzoiah Yachne SchmoigermanOctober 13, 2009 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #662351
smalltowngirl: Sometimes if people feel they are being lectured or being dictated to by a Rebbitzin/Rabbi/Teacher, they shut down and don’t want to accept it or won’t even listen. I wanted to by-pass that type of reaction. I wanted to let everyone know that I’m just a regular person, just like them.
On the other hand, other people will only respect what is being said if it comes from an authority figure. Oh well!
I am only being truthful when I say that I am not a Rebbitzin and as Joseph says, many MO people, and all the MO people that I know identify themselves in this way.
I am educated, and work outside of the home not in the chinuch world so it may appear that I’m MO.
This does not make you MO. Modern Orthodoxy is specific group of people who want to distinguish themselves from more traditional orthodoxy.
BTW, I am also not in a specific category. I am a Bais Yaakov girl who is college-educated, which is not unusual in the NY area. I don’t usually label myself and try not to label others, but when speaking about tznius, this is useful for the sake of clarity.October 13, 2009 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #662352mazcaMember
I was reading your posts about wearing perfum, and my question is this:
Over Yom Tov I was sitting next to a lady that smell so bad I had to change places.
Is that tzeniut?October 13, 2009 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #662353mepalMember
No. But I doubt she did that on purpose.October 13, 2009 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #662354starwolfMember
Smalltowngirl posted: “I believe that we need to acknowledge that the rebbitzen is just as human as we are.
As far as the labeling…whether you label me or I label myself…it is very often improper, unkind, and maybe even inaccurate.
We should also acknowledge that the Rav is as human as we are.
Labeling people is certainly inaccurate. People are multidimensional, and do not neatly fit into little boxes. In general, the ones who classify (label) people use the most superficial attributes to do so. (How could it be otherwise, since nobody can read minds or intentions, and many midot are not apparent to the outside world).
The fact that labeling is often cruel, and causes hurt or embarrassment to people, is too often overlooked.October 13, 2009 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #662355October 13, 2009 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #662356
It is a G-d made weakness designed into human nature. Man must control it, but that does not alleviate the tznius issues.October 13, 2009 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #662357haifagirlParticipant
Recently I was at a mall and there were two (non-frum) girls there. Neither were dressed tznius, but one was worse than the other. Some guy made a comment to the girl who was wearing very revealing clothes. I didn’t hear what he said, but from the look on her face, she was not happy. Then her friend said you have to expect that if you’re going to dress like that.October 13, 2009 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #662358mybatMember
Of course men are weak in this area, does that make it right to dress so that should drool over me? Ewwww…. Why would anyone want to have that?October 13, 2009 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #662359
Though related, this is actually a separate issue. Hashem made women and put into their nature to be tzanua. Hashem took a bone from Adam from the most covered area for a reason.
The Sefer Torah is something that the Jewish people treasure and are proud of, but when it is not being read, it is covered by a mantle, placed in the aron, and has a paroches in front of it – three coverings. Also, the kodesh k’dashim was the most holy place in the world, and no one was allowed in except the kohen gadol, and only on Yom Kippur. “Kol kevuda bas melech penima” is not just something to quote.
A bas Yisroel is a bas Melech and when something is “out there”, it is cheapened. It shows that it is not valued.
We need to teach our daughters that they are bnos Melech, and to value themselves, as the Hashem values us!October 13, 2009 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #662360
My point is; Ain l’davar sof. No matter how women are dressed; you are going to have this issue.
And it’s interesting; years back when “frum women” did not cover the knee or elbow, the men were also of a different mind set and the problem was not on the front burner. I think our women should be extolled for their accomplishments in areas of tznius, not criticized.October 13, 2009 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #662361
No matter how women are dressed; you are going to have this issue.
Ein hochi nami. 1) Men need to control themselves. 2) Women need to dress k’halacha. Two separate (albeit related) issues.October 13, 2009 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #662362smalltowngirlMember
YES NY Mom, we do need to teach OUR daughters.
I didn’t give birth to girls but the girls in my community are mine (to a certain point) And I do try as a mother of boys to let them know that certain outfits are simply not up to their particular caliber. That they ARE different and as a bas Yisroel need to act and dress accordingly.
I’d love to team up with you anytime on this.October 13, 2009 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #662363
cherrybim: And it’s interesting; years back when “frum women” did not cover the knee or elbow, the men were also of a different mind set and the problem was not on the front burner.
Years ago, non-Jews also dressed b’tznius, and it would have been a scandal had they uncovered their ankles! “Doros holchos u’mismaatos”
That aside, in the time to which you are referring, there was not a widespread frum female educational system like there is today. The bar is higher now. If virtually all frum girls are torah-educated and versed in chumash, Rashi, Rambam, and other varied Jewish subject matter, including halachos, why aren’t they all dressing within normative tznius guidelines – even within the spirit of halachah?
I think our women should be extolled for their accomplishments in areas of tznius, not criticized.
Definitely! Praise on an individual basis whatever or whomever you feel deserves this praise! And I will, as well! However, when there is a problem in our community, there is no mitzvah to ignore it! And when I see frum women who went to BY and are married, walking around with a sheitel, but with clothing that is so tight that I am embarrassed for my husband to look at them, then I cannot ignore the problem!October 13, 2009 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #662364
smalltowngirl: Thank you for you contributions to this thread, partner! Though the CR has a limited readership, it is an open forum for anyone who has an interest to read. And by bringing this important topic to the fore, I believe that it is a help and a chizuk to others.October 13, 2009 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #662365Feif UnParticipant
“That aside, in the time to which you are referring, there was not a widespread frum female educational system like there is today. The bar is higher now. If virtually all frum girls are torah-educated and versed in chumash, Rashi, Rambam, and other varied Jewish subject matter, including halachos, why aren’t they all dressing within normative tznius guidelines – even within the spirit of halachah?”
So you think the halachos changed? That’s the problem – people turn chumros into halachos, and expect everyone to follow them. If you don’t, you’re looked at as a sheigetz/shiksa. Keep to the basic halachah, and don’t put unnecessary chumros on people. It only leads to people resenting them, and not following even the basics.October 13, 2009 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #662366
Feif – No, the halachas do not change. In the past, there was widespread ignorance in some areas and the halachas were not followed properly.October 13, 2009 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #662367
NYMom, the way MO people choose to keep tznius is the same way other groups (Yeshivish, Chasidish etc) choose what halacha they keep as well. People pick and choose what they keep.
As to specific pskei halacha – some issues (like pants, how much hair to cover, length of sleeves) are not as clear cut as people make them and some rabbis pasken differently.October 13, 2009 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #662368
Feif Un: So you think the halachos changed? That’s the problem – people turn chumros into halachos, and expect everyone to follow them.
What halachos did I mention? What chumros did I mention?
I didn’t think that I needed to spell it out, but obviously I do. When women are covering their hair, covering their knees, and covering their elbows, but their clothing are so tight that you cannot help but see their entire figure, I would say that they are following the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law.
Oy! I am such a “machmir”!October 13, 2009 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #662369
SJSinNYC: I don’t know you and I don’t know what Rav you follow. If you have asked shailos about tznius and have received piskei halacha from your Rav, then you should follow it.
But I have close relatives who are Modern Orthodox and they have never asked a Rav what they should or should not wear. They just do what they want. They don’t pick and choose a psak, they pick and choose what they want to do. If you have different experiences then great, but these are my experiences and I am only stating what I know.October 13, 2009 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #662370
NY Mom, do you ever speak lashon hara? That’s picking and choosing. Everyone picks and chooses, from all spectrums.
I’m not denying that MO people sometimes pick and choose what halacha they follow. I’m just explaining its not a MO thing.October 13, 2009 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #662371
I might be mistaking the gemarah, but if I recall, there was a story about someone who had to walk somewhere and he passed women bathing or laundering, he either had to walk with his head down or told the women to move or something, he was chastised and told that he should have taken a different route. It is not only up to the women, the men have a responsibility as well.
Furthermore, like everything in life, human nature tells us that if you harp on only one issue, it’s not good.October 13, 2009 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #662372feivelParticipant
he was chastised for taking a route that would lead to temptation, instead of avoiding temptation.October 13, 2009 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #662373
ok, but the point remains that the burden was on him, not the women.October 13, 2009 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #662374A600KiloBearParticipant
Wait a minute! Aren’t spaghetti straps only an issue on Pesach because of chometz issues?October 13, 2009 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #662375feivelParticipant
the point has nothing to do with the women and what burden was on them. it makes no statement about the womens obligation for tznius
the point is that a person should not only not sin but that he should not place himself in a situation where he would be tempted to sin. the same point would have applied if instead of women it was mcdonalds.October 13, 2009 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #662376jphoneMember
“If virtually all frum girls are torah-educated and versed in chumash, Rashi, Rambam, and other varied Jewish subject matter, including halachos, why aren’t they all dressing within normative tznius guidelines – even within the spirit of halachah?”
Perhaps this is the problem. Instead of making sure girls are up all night studying for tests that ensure their fluency in Rambam and other subject matter and instead schools taught hilchos tznius and basic hashkafa, girls would know what is and what is not considered proper according to halacha and will also know how to behave within the spirit of the halacha.
More girls today know more Rambans than many of the Rambans own talmidim and many bachurim know more R’ Chaims than most of the gedolim who lived in Brisk yet we are in a situation where we are discussing the fact that females dont dress according to halacha and men are doing little to nothing to stop it.October 13, 2009 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #662377
SJSinNYC: NY Mom, do you ever speak lashon hara? That’s picking and choosing. Everyone picks and chooses, from all spectrums.
I’m not denying that MO people sometimes pick and choose what halacha they follow. I’m just explaining its not a MO thing.
Your point is well taken. Although, I would not have chosen that example as it is not exactly analogous. Lashon hara is acknowledged by all to be a bad thing, and when we speak it, we do it out of weakness. We are giving in to our yetzer hara and speaking words that we know are wrong. (Unless, of course, the person “chooses” not to care about L”H!) However, when someone decides not to cover her hair when she is married, she is b’shitah saying to the world “I do not cover my hair and that is OK”. She doesn’t acknowledge that she is doing wrong.
However, you are right that all people pick and choose their own derech.
But I will also say that there is a difference between people who choose one halachically acceptable shitah over another and people who just do as they wish. For example, if someone decides not to be machmir in chalav Yisroel, he has what to rely on, halachically speaking. But if someone decides to go mixed swimming, do you think that they are relying on a psak halacha by their LOR?October 13, 2009 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #662378yoshiMember
There are a few of us, who have differences of opinions when it comes to labeling other Jews, and the proper definition of “who” a Rebbitzen. I think what NY Mom was trying to get across to the people of this thread is that she is just a “regular” Orthodox mother, who wants to give her opinion and hear feedback on the matter.
I just wanted to let that out, so please, go on with your conversations everyone! Enjoy 🙂October 13, 2009 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #662379
I think if we had a campaign to be machmir on all aspects of “bain adam l’chaveiro”, with no exceptions; all of these other issues would soon end.October 13, 2009 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #662380
cherrybim: I think if we had a campaign to be machmir on all aspects of “bain adam l’chaveiro”, with no exceptions; all of these other issues would soon end.
Don’t you think that it would be an inyan in “bain adam l’chaveiro” not to be nichshol others in an aveirah? When Mrs. Look-At-Me-Everyone dresses in a way that you can’t help but look, wouldn’t you say that she’s putting a stumbling block before the men who happen to be around her? And what about the wives of those men? Don’t you think it would be an inyan in “bain adam l’chaveiro” to be sensitive about this and then their wives wouldn’t have to compete with this “lo tznua”?October 13, 2009 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #662381
NY Mom – You gave the perfect response.October 14, 2009 12:41 am at 12:41 am #662382
Hi Ames! I’m glad you’re here. I wanted to ask you about socks vs. no socks according to Sephardic psak halacha. So what’s the story?October 14, 2009 1:02 am at 1:02 am #662383
NY Mom – The “bain adam l’chaveiro” starts with us. By being wonderful role models in “bain adam l’chaveiro”, the znius model will be imitated as well.
It’s funny, I never worry about my wife competing with anyone; she’s just perfect, as is.October 14, 2009 1:21 am at 1:21 am #662384
cherrybim: It’s funny, I never worry about my wife competing with anyone; she’s just perfect, as is.
That is wonderful for you! B”H I also have a good relationship with my husband (ba”h). Unfortunately, however, we can’t say that for all the frum husbands and wives out there. And, sad to say, there are so many divorces going on, r”l, in the frum world. Our Rav, who deals with a lot of shalom bayis issues, has a lot to say about the hisrashlus in tznius affecting people’s shalom bayis. I won’t go into further details about that, but let’s just say not every husband only sees his wife and thinks she is perfect, r”l.October 14, 2009 1:55 am at 1:55 am #662385
Tznius is not the cause of Shalom Bais issues: Hachnosas Orchim is. When you have a couple over for a Shabbos meal and the husband is articulate and speaks in sentences or the wife is the perfect tz’nuah but is put together well; this kinah I hear from Rabbonim undermines Shalom Bais.October 14, 2009 2:23 am at 2:23 am #662386mybatMember
I think I understand what cherrybim is on to, it’s actually a very good point.
So part of being tzanua has a lot to do with behavior….October 14, 2009 2:37 am at 2:37 am #662387
cherrybim: There is something to what you say, but if you think that it is as simple as this, then think again.
Yes, inappropriate interactions between couples does contribute to unfair and unfortunate comparisons, but do you think that a lack of tznius has nothing to do with some shalom bayis problems? Speak to a Rav who lives in NY and deals with couples in conflict, and you will be shocked by what you hear.October 14, 2009 2:42 am at 2:42 am #662388
Ames: Thank you for the link!
Would you really speak to your Rav for me? What an pal! What a friend! Thank you that would be great! I am curious to know what a Sephardic Rav holds.October 14, 2009 2:56 am at 2:56 am #662389
“However, when someone decides not to cover her hair when she is married, she is b’shitah saying to the world “I do not cover my hair and that is OK”. She doesn’t acknowledge that she is doing wrong.”
Many people do things wrong, openly and knowingly, but still do it. Don’t take that as thinking its correct anymore than the tax evader who is still openly accepted by his shul really thinks his theft is ok.
As to the shalom bayis issues – I thought certain things were more kabbalistic in nature. No one is going to convince me that if a man sees a woman with a sleeve that is 1/4″ too short, he is going to stray. Why we have the boundaries we do is simple halacha, but you aren’t talking about observant women wearing bikinis – you are talking a matter of inches. If a man says he was tempted by the 1/4″, I wouldn’t believe him, especially because general society exposes so much more than we do.October 14, 2009 3:38 am at 3:38 am #662390
SJSinNYC: I am not talking about “a woman with a sleeve that is 1/4″ too short” (although that is also contrary to the halachah as I have learned it), and to think that that is the only problem is a bit naive. (Please forgive me for that but I wish I could still be naive with some of the stories I have heard!) Halevai that would be the only problem!
It is form-fitting outfits and styles that emphasize certain body parts or call attention to certain body parts that are the real problem now, IMHO. Even shoes can be inappropriate. Some of the high heels now are so…I am looking for a word here…Am I allowed to say…..in the YW CR?….NO
I will quote several Rebbitzins that I have heard say, “A woman should dress in a way that is attractive, not attracting.”
Unfortunately, many frum women do not know this or do not take this to heart.October 14, 2009 3:47 am at 3:47 am #662391
SJSinNYC, you also said, If a man says he was tempted by the 1/4″, I wouldn’t believe him, especially because general society exposes so much more than we do.
This is one reason why I do not have a TV in my home and I do not bring in inappropriate magazines into my house either. I do not want to expose my husband and my children to the images glorified there. They are exposed enough on the street to those images and to “general society” as you say.October 14, 2009 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #662393
I just wanted to say-that i am utterly shocked at what girls and women are wearing today! i have some news for you-NOT EVERYTHING IS TZNIUS! just by adding a shell ( which most of the time does not cover the back of your collar bone ) doesn’t make the garment ‘kosher’. The short pencil skirts are disgusting! Forget about covering knees when sitting, WHAT ABOUT COVERING EM WHEN YOU’RE STANDING?! it seems like tznius is so ‘last year’…I don’t know what has gotten into people these days! I once heard a powerful remark- think, who are you trying to impress the shcheina or the shechina?!October 14, 2009 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #662394Be HappyParticipant
You are so right gezuntheit.
Rebitzin Zahave Braunstein z”l said As men have the mitzva of learning Torah ladies have the mitzva of Tzinius. Are we ready to give it up just because of what other people may say.
When going to a Rabbi for whatever reason are we happy with what we are wearing or do we need to find some more “frum” clothes?
If Moshiach comes now will we be happy with our mode of dress?
Don’t discard such a special mitzvaOctober 14, 2009 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #662395
Thank you estherh! This issue in particular just gets me so mad! We are pushing away the shechina!October 14, 2009 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #662396
oh, and i forgot to mention, It’s practically assur for a man to go outside these days with his eyes open! So if you can’t be tznius for your own pride and dignity, at least do it for the men who want to take a walk outside sometimes!October 14, 2009 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #662397mazal77Participant
Gezuntheit, I agree with you. I just tell my husband and boys, just try to look at the ground, instead of around, you can find some money that way. Just the other day, I found $20 bucks…
Some women get really offended when the tzinus issue is brought up and go on the defensive and say that men shouldn’t look at a woman anyway. Those women don’t realize how hard it is for a man not to look. As a woman, it is our responiblity to be as modestly dressed as possible according to the Halacha and when not dressed according to Halacha, you are causing others to sin.October 14, 2009 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #662398
mazal77 – So what do you do when you want to take a walk sometimes and are modestly dressed according to Halacha and you are still causing others to sin since it’s so hard for a man not to look at a woman?October 14, 2009 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #662399
That’s why the really frum wear a burka. Don’t laugh, it’s coming. The future of Judaism will be Burqa Babes roaming the streets, R”L.October 14, 2009 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #662400mazal77Participant
Cherrybim, Well, at least I know I have done my part. I make sure my head is covered and my skirts are past my knees, sitting or standing. Trust me I am not a person who has people looking at her. I tend to keep a low profile and never wear anything attention getting.
Unfortunately, it has become acceptable for many frum women and girls to wear straight, tight, skirts that are just above or about the knees.
Truthsharer, while I wouldn’t wear a Burka, you should know, that when Moslem women are dressed modestly it gives the Yismaelim power over the Jews. We as jewish women have to be dressed modestly according to Halacha.
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