October 14, 2009 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #662401
mazal77- Men are weak; they look at women no matter what. As the g’mara says: even an exposed pinky.October 14, 2009 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #662402mybatMember
Well I was once in a Muslim country and it was so funny because the ladies were wearing religious store jean skirts! And our guide was explaining to us all about the different levels of “tznius” of the women.October 14, 2009 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #662403
Do you beleive that there is no such concept as tznius? Obviously dressing not tzniusdig makes it much harder for the men. I really don’t understand you.October 14, 2009 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #662404
wow, I always thoughta that wearing stockings was really a minhag since they say we have to cover our legs under the knee, well I guess we dont know everything, but about covering the hair I went to see my old aunt many years ago, she was born in allepo syria and I asked her what did people do there and she told me that women used to let their hair grow and when they got married they cut their hair and maid braid wigs, I always used to tell everybody the story and people used to look at me skeptical then few weeks ago I was reading the book of the allepian jews, and it is exactly how she told me. So syrian women are allowed to wear wigs not like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef that says hair wigs are not good for sephardim maybe sephardim from other countries like Irak. And by the way of course ther is a concept of tznius no question about it. The concept goes in every aspect of our lives like dressing and behaving and being modest with everything, and not being a show off with cars, homes, jewelery or bragging about our successes in life.October 14, 2009 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #662405
Mazca, I thought a woman could not use her own hair to make a wig for herself. Maybe they grew their hair and traded with someelse??October 14, 2009 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #662406
No my aunt said it was their hair but you should ask your Rabbi. In the allepian book it just says people wore wigs from braided hair.October 14, 2009 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #662407
I guess your own hair wouldve been better than Indian Hair whe the crisis came up.October 14, 2009 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #662408
says who – All I’m saying is do what is right and don’t act meshuga.
If you do what is right and you’re a decent person, others will follow.
Everyone has different weaknesses, so if you’re perfect in every respect, then you can lecture others. Work on your own weakness and leave the musser to those who are expert in giving it. Otherwise, it can do more harm than good.October 14, 2009 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #662409mybatMember
Mazal I heard that you are allowed to use your own hair. Maybe there are different opinions.October 14, 2009 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #662410
If you are allowed to use your own hair to make a wig, what is the point?
Mazca, what book are you refering to, “Alleppo, city of scholars?”October 14, 2009 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #662411
ames, wearing stockings is not halacha, simple fact, they didn’t have stockings back then. It might be minhag hamokom, but it’s certainly not halacha.October 14, 2009 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #662412
ames, wearing stockings is not halacha, simple fact, they didn’t have stockings back then. It might be minhag hamokom, but it’s certainly not halacha.
Her rav told her it is halacha (as would mine if I were female). Therefore it is halacha. We did not have electrical appliances “back then”. Do we therefore not use them? No, we are thankful that we have stockings so we can keep better tznius (and who knows that there was not something like that back then), and we are thankful that we can use appliances to lead better lives.October 14, 2009 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #662413
yes I am reffering to the book “Allepp City of Scholars” check it out.
I think if the rabbis allow a person to use regular hair wether is yours or not there must be a point, and besides who are we to argue with the authorities.October 14, 2009 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #662417
1) 99.999% of the halacha of tznius is minhag.
2) Your rav might have meant that since the minhag of the community is to wear stockings, according to tzniyus, it is now the halacha within your community to wear stockings.October 14, 2009 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #662418
Wow this is getting complicated, now we have to poskim in all aspects of tzenius: In different places different customs I guess. What it looks tzenius in one place its not in another, a wig, a dress, a plain stocking, a stocking with a line on the back, a wig with a hat. a long wig, a short wig, a jean skirt, a regular tshirt, a suit, I guess there are different levels.October 14, 2009 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #662419
Ames of course knows that the only one who can tell her that her rav is wrong is the Admou”r meCreedmoor but even he agrees that you should wear 190 den seamed fibreglass stockings under your burqa.October 14, 2009 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #662420
I guess there is humor in everything, Be Happy everybodyOctober 14, 2009 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #662421JewessMember
This topic has been chewed to death, here, there and everywhere.
Who are we to judge how others dress? Do we want God to judge us on our flaws? Just because the way that somebody dresses is not tzanua according to you and yours, does not mean that it is worse than your discussion of them?
Have you ever thought that that woman (or man) with the short/tight skirt or whatever article of clothing–or lack of–that she (or he) is wearing, is working on other midot or mitzvot? Maybe she (or he) is perfecting her (or his) sh’mirat shabbat, kashrut or a mitzvah that is ben adam lechavero?
If all of our sins were visible and magnified like the issues of tzniut are, I’m sure that those who are doing the discussing, judging and condemning will have flaws of their own, exposed for all to see. Just because one’s flaw is more obvious than another’s, does not mean that it is worse. And the fact that one’s weak point may be tzniut, does not give you or me permission to discuss their shortcomings.
Nobody here is a tzaddik or tzadeket. We all have to work on ourselves. I may need to add a few inches to my skirt and top, and somebody else may need to work on their yirat shamayim, mitzvot of ben adam lechavero and the practice of being dan lekaf zechut (all of which I should work on too).
Just one more thing, please. The shells under dresses. For the love of God, give people a break!!! It’s hard enough to keep tzniut as it is, and I can’t even believe that people would say that wearing a shell under a sleeveless dress or spaghetti strap one is not tzanua. You’re choking people. Literally.October 14, 2009 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #662422mepalMember
Do we want God to judge us on our flaws?
He will…October 14, 2009 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #662423haifagirlParticipant
Back to the issue of wigs made from hair. A friend of mine told me she was at a shiur given by Rebbetzin Feige Twerski who said that a wig is an extra barrier. No man wants to run his fingers through a wig. So even a wig made of real hair (even her own hair) will be one more “fence” to protect them from an aveirah.October 14, 2009 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #662424
Thank you, ames! I really appreciate that! You’re the best 🙂
Pashute Yid, and truthsharer: You see, this is why we have to ask shailos from our poskim and not just pasken from sources that we read on our own.
Also, Let me rephrase something that I wrote above that the powers-that-be-in-the-CR deemed inappropriate: Even shoes can be inappropriate. Some of the high heel styles that some women are wearing now are so low in appearance, goyishe-looking, more appropriate for a zonah. (This word is good enough to be in the Torah is it good enough for the YW CR?) Just fineOctober 14, 2009 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #662425JewessMember
Yes, Mepal. He will. But He will also be looking at us the way that we look at others. So if we look and judge harshly “What a #$%&*! How could she wear that? etc…”, then we are putting ourselves in a position where God forbid, we may be judged more harshly too.October 14, 2009 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #662426mepalMember
True. And calling people ‘zonah’s’ for wearing funky shoes…October 14, 2009 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #662427
Ames, just out of curiosity, you never question your rav, or his sources?October 14, 2009 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #662428
The thread is not about judging anyone. The main point was why is the level of tznius in general deteriorating.October 14, 2009 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #662429
Mepal: I am not just talking about “funky” shoes. I am talking about high heel shoes that look like a zonah would wear.
I have not pointed to any one style or any one person!
It is a certain look that you can’t exactly describe, but as some people define certain ‘literature with indecent images’: “You know it when you see it!”October 14, 2009 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #662430
ames, that is indeed sad. You learn a lot when you question. You have the “right” to know how/why the Rav came to his conclusion and you learn a lot while he’s explaining it to you. Could be a gender thing, but most people don’t just take a yes/no (unless it’s a simple question perhaps), most discuss and yes, at times, debate until the conclusion is reached. Why would it be disrespectful to ask a rav how he came to his conclusion?
You’ll notice in 99.99999% of SHUT seforim that it’s never just the answer, but the logic and sevarah leading up to the answer. In many cases, that is even more important than the answer.October 14, 2009 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #662431
I am talking about high heel shoes that look like a zonah would wear.
The Admou”r himself wears six inch red platform heels, copying the style of a couple of vertically challenged Ku Klutz Karta klowns who want to make sure they are as tall as Mad Mahmoud when they visit Iran. So, I guess this style is for yechidei skila.
You’ll notice in 99.99999% of SHUT seforim that it’s never just the answer
And what of SHTUT seforim?October 14, 2009 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #662432
truthsharer: But when it comes down to the psak halachah, the Rav is the last word on it, and not some anonymous poster in the CR!October 14, 2009 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #662433
says who – “The main point was why is the level of tznius in general deteriorating”.
It’s not good enough anymore to cover up, it’s how you cover up.
Well, we’ve waited a long time to get this far, let’s wait a bit longer, but with gentleness. M’at m’at as m’silas yesharim says, or else you lose it all.
The dor hamabul was destroyed not because of tznius issues, although it was rampant, but because of chamas: because people cheated on their taxes; because people laundered money; because they double parked their chariots and wasted other’s time; because they plagiarized and attributed other’s works as their own; etc.
So before going off the wall concerning tznius; let’s put our efforts into eradicating chamas. If we can do that, I don’t think tznius will be an issue.October 14, 2009 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #662434
We are now talking about tznius issues, of course we have more things to work on but don’t be in denial.October 14, 2009 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #662435
“It saddens me to hear about people who don’t work on their emunas chachamim. “
Is that a veiled insult?
When I ask a rav a question, if I don’t understand the reason I ask, and debate, and there are times when the rav would backtrack once I inputted a point he didn’t think about. That’s how guys work. go into a Beis Medrash and you’ll see guys arguing and yelling at each other for hours on end. I know it’s not “girlie” but that is how things happen in the halachic world.October 14, 2009 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #662436
truthsharer, we usually try to do what the Rabbis tell us to do. In this case where the question and the answer are very clearly stated. Ames asked a question and her Rav gave her an answer. He said No. Ames knows her Rav is Makpid on it. There are no further questions to ask.October 14, 2009 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #662437
says who – “of course we have more things to work on but don’t be in denial.”
The mention of tznius in the CR brings them all out yelling in their corners. Tznius issues take up a lot of room in the CR; Chamas doesn’t. Look who’s in denial?October 14, 2009 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #662438JosephParticipant
“The dor hamabul was destroyed not because of tznius issues, although it was rampant”
The Gemorah in Shabbos 62b says that a reason for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash was women used excessive cosmetics, and that a women should care about her appearance only to the extent of not being repulsive to her husband.October 14, 2009 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #662439yoshiMember
haifagirl, I don’t wear wigs (for personal reasons), but I have seen wigs look so good, that a woman would have to spend hours on her own hair to look like that. Some of the wigs out there appear so “real’ that I can’t tell the difference. Also, the way they feel to the touch. It’s so soft and silky. These wigs are seriously beautiful. Forget about men wanting to run their hands through the hair/wig, I know many women who love to feel the wigs (I’ve seen this happen as well).October 14, 2009 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #662440SJSinNYCMember
Mazal, tthe issue of using your own hair as a wig is debatable. Then again, everything about covering your head/hair is…the only constant is that you have to cover your hair.
Ames, I debate with my Rabbi all the time to understand why/where/how and to make sure we are both clear on the question AND answer. You would be surprised how you can state a question one way and the other person understands it different than you meant. FTR, if he says “its just halacha, there isn’t an answer to why” that is good enough for me.October 15, 2009 12:14 am at 12:14 am #662442GezuntheitMember
cherrybim, i mean seriously! do you honestly think the level of tzniyus is good now a days?! I’m not sure if you’ve been out on the streets but the level has definitely gone down, and people aren’t even embarassed anymore! chamas by all means is terrible, and go ahead and start a blog for that too…but the tzniyus level has def. fallen a great legnth and it’s time to do something about it! It’s just sickening!October 15, 2009 12:42 am at 12:42 am #662443aryeh3Participant
“When I ask a rav a question, if I don’t understand the reason I ask, and debate, and there are times when the rav would backtrack once I inputted a point he didn’t think about. That’s how guys work. go into a Beis Medrash and you’ll see guys arguing and yelling at each other for hours on end. I know it’s not “girlie” but that is how things happen in the halachic world.”
That’s not what I observe. What I see are men addressing the Rav in the third person out of respect; standing when he walks into the room and definitely not arguing with him on a matter of halacha.
Yes, with your chavrusa you would argue, but not your Rav.
But this is off topic for this thread, which is about tzinus, modesty – walking modestly with your God – humbly – not arrogantly.October 15, 2009 1:48 am at 1:48 am #662444
Jewess: The shells under dresses. For the love of God, give people a break!!! It’s hard enough to keep tzniut as it is, and I can’t even believe that people would say that wearing a shell under a sleeveless dress or spaghetti strap one is not tzanua. You’re chking people. Literally.
Please re-read my above post. You completely missed something. I said that I felt that it sent the wrong message, but that it is a “personl thing” – not assur l’halachah! I also said it is “nothing compared to the real problems”.
And in my opening post I said “I am not trying to put anyone down. I am trying to understand this trend and trying to be mechazek others in this inyan.”
So chill out!
Have you ever thought that that woman (or man) with the short/tight skirt or whatever article of clothing–or lack of–that she (or he) is wearing, is working on other midot or mitzvot?
The fact about clothing is that whenever you choose something to wear, you are presenting yourself to the world and projecting an image of yourself. If you wear denim or sweats, you are broadcasting informality. If you are wearing a suit, you are telling people that you mean business. This is a fact that even the goyim accept. (Ever heard the saying “The clothes make the man”?) So if a woman (or man???) is wearing a short/tight skirt, she is sending a message to the world. What exactly is she trying to say? Is she saying “I am a bas Melech”? That is not the message I get.
You also said, This topic has been chewed to death, here, there and everywhere. If you don’t like this thread, then no one is forcing you to read it. So don’t!October 15, 2009 4:16 am at 4:16 am #662445
Joseph – “The Gemorah in Shabbos 62b says that a reason for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash was women used excessive cosmetics”
Exactly my point Joseph, women have improved in areas of Tznius over the years and especially in recent times, Boruch Hashem. Halavai Veiter.
I hope we all improve in our ways the way women have been improving in Tznius.October 15, 2009 5:05 am at 5:05 am #662446haifagirlParticipant
“The fact about clothing is that whenever you choose something to wear, you are presenting yourself to the world and projecting an image of yourself.”
I know someone who was reluctant to cover her hair because she didn’t feel she was at that level and didn’t want to present a false view of herself to the world. I suggested to her she should start covering her hair and it might help bring her up to that level. She did and she is.October 15, 2009 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #662447
The mention of tznius in the CR brings them all out yelling in their corners. Tznius issues take up a lot of room in the CR; Chamas doesn’t. Look who’s in denial?
No one is preventing you from making a thread about chamas. Right now we are discussing tznius and if there is a problem with chamas which i agree that there is, it is not a reason why tznius shouldn’t be discussed.October 15, 2009 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #662448
Does everyone really feel that the reason frum women are going around with questionable attire is because they were suppressed and given too many “no”s in high school? A 30 yr old woman is still rebelling against the “tznius lady” from BY?
When are we all going to grow up and realize that the “tznius lady” is no longer scrutinizing us and we’re not “getting away” with anything? When are women going to be mature enough to understand that it’s really only you and the Ribono Shel Olam?
But maybe this is not the reason at all. Maybe it is really a lack of self-esteem. Some women do not feel good about themselves unless others compliment them. I mean truthfully, we all feel good when someone else says we look nice, but does looking nice mean we have to compromise our principles? There are no fashionable outfits out there that are unquestionably tznius?
Just thinking ‘aloud’.October 15, 2009 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #662449squeakParticipant
In truth I would not be surprised if many women are still rebelling against the “tsnius lady”. That’s the way people are: Most people have trouble getting past things that hurt their pride – and being told “you’re not good enough” is at the top of that list. Even 30 years later they might still be trying to prove (to themselves) that they can decide for themselves what is good enough.
You are absolutely right that everything is between you and Hashem. However, think to yourself (and be honest) about how many of the things you do are things you want to do (right things AND wrong things). Compare that to how many things you do even though you don’t want to but ONLY because Hashem says you must. I think you will agree that wanting to do something is probably the most necessary component to doing. That’s why I suggest that the only way to improve tsnius is to make a culture of women who WANT to be b’tsnius. You can make them want to by admiring their efforts.October 15, 2009 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #662450
Joseph – “The Gemorah in Shabbos 62b says that… a women should care about her appearance only to the extent of not being repulsive to her husband.’
I think it would take an awful lot of makeup for a women to make herself repulsive to her husband.October 15, 2009 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #662451Josh31Participant
I checked out the Gemorah in Shabbos 62b. There was much more going on than just “excessive cosmetics”. The behavior was that of a powerful entrapment of those vulnerable to sin.
A few generations later Ezra was trying to encourage Jewish women to upgrade their appearances to reduce the problem of intermarriage.October 15, 2009 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #662452squeakParticipant
truthsharer, I’m not sure what you want from me. Would you like me “ask, debate, argue, and yell” at my rabbi until he “backtracks” from his psak? Do you think that would be appropriate?
ames, I can tell you what I think you should do.
I think you should “ask, debate, argue, and yell” at truthsharer until he “backtracks” from his position. That would be appropriate.October 15, 2009 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #662453
Josh31- Thanks for the update and correction. Baruch Hashem that Jewish women are the most beautiful in the world; both in midos and in appearance.October 15, 2009 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #662454
squeak: You are absolutely right that everything is between you and Hashem. However, think to yourself (and be honest) about how many of the things you do are things you want to do (right things AND wrong things). Compare that to how many things you do even though you don’t want to but ONLY because Hashem says you must. I think you will agree that wanting to do something is probably the most necessary component to doing. That’s why I suggest that the only way to improve tsnius is to make a culture of women who WANT to be b’tsnius. You can make them want to by admiring their efforts.
I get your point about doing things because you want to do them, but complimenting someones efforts on tznius is on an individual basis and also very personal. What about my neighbor who is dressed on Y”T, in shul, in a form-fitting outfit that empahsizes all the “right” places and is a real head-turning outfit? She obviously thinks she looks good. She is willing for other women, the rebbitzin, and other men to see her this way. I don’t say anything to her. I don’t compliment her outfit, and I usually just wish her a good Y”T. (Inside, I am cringing and wondering why this woman needs to objectify herself this way.) Do you mean when I see her in the street next time, and she is wearing a more tznius outfit, I should say, “Now this is a tzniusdik outfit! You look great!” Ha! You can imagine the reaction I would get from her!
Your suggestion on how to improve tznius with positive reinforcement is applicable for my own daughter, but not for other women in my neighborhood and shul or just another frum woman walking down the street. Should we just ignore this mode of dress? Shouldn’t we discuss it and bring it to open forums like the CR?
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