Uman

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  • #1571634

    BisBoy
    Participant

    Can someone please explain to me WHY do so many people go to Uman? What is to see there?

    #1571811

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Can someone please explain to me WHY do so many people go to Uman? What is to see there?

    The Kever of R’ Nachman of Breslov.

    The Wolf (who has never been to Uman and has no intention of ever going).

    #1571823

    reform rabbi
    Participant

    One word – R’ Nachman

    Many people consider R’ Nachman their guide in life. They gather together, as R’ Nachman asked, at R’ Nachman’s place for Rosh Hashanah. The gathering, where you meet like minded fellows, gives you insight and understanding of life andavodas Hashem that you can’t get otherwise.

    #1571869

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Don’t get sucked in. I think this is just a response to the Satmar kever thread. Either that or just very coincidental timing.

    #1571866

    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    Rebbe Nachman spent the last five months of his life in Uman, and specifically requested to be buried here. As believed by the Breslov Hassidim, before his death he solemnly promised to intercede on behalf of anyone who would come to pray on his grave on Rosh Hashana, “be he the worst of sinners”; thus, a pilgrimage to this grave provides the best chance of getting unscathed through the stern judgement which, according to Jewish faith, God passes on everybody on Yom Kippur

    #1571864

    Chaver
    Participant

    To get closer to Hashem!

    #1571842

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Uman y’hah shmah rabah mevoorach etc.

    #1571966

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    ChaverParticipant
    To get closer to Hashem!
    —_————————
    Just curious what people did to get closer to hashem before uman?
    Or maybe they didnt untill uman came along.

    #1572121

    yytz
    Participant

    About 40,000 go each year. Rebbe Nachman taught his followers it was very important to visit his grave on Rosh HaShana. Some Breslov chassidim go every year, while others might go once in a lifetime.

    The most distinctive teachings of Breslov chassidus are the importance to praying to Hashem in one’s own words (hitbodedut) and going to Uman. (There’s a lot more, too, including a special emphasis on studying the Shulchan Aruch each day, “it is a great mitzvah to be happy always,” etc.)

    Many BTs are attracted to Breslov teachings, and so many people (especially Israelis) who are on the path to becoming frum go to Uman, and it can be an important spiritual experience for them, which encourages them. There are also many frum non-Breslovers who go–Chabad, dati leumi, Yeshivish, etc.–because they have some interest in Breslov chassidus.

    #1572332

    Avi K
    Participant

    Wolf, the Kotzker said that the world is a mashal and the nimshal is money. The Ukrainians profit. Tour operators profit. Airlines profit. A few years ago some breslovers wanted to reinter Rabbi Nachman in EY, which he certainly would have wanted. The Ukrainian government adamantly refused. There was a similar promo about Rabbi Elimelech’s grave and within EY there is Amuka (Yonatan ben Uziel’s grave).

    Takes, they learned Torah. They made aliya.

    #1572554

    1
    Participant

    There’s more spirituality in yerushalayim than in uman.

    #1573035

    yytz
    Participant

    Avi K: The vast majority of Breslov chassidim were opposed to moving the kever to Israel. It’s far from clear Rebbe Nachman would have approved of such a move. He chose to move to Uman before his death for a specific reason — because it was near the graves of the Chmielnicki pogram victims, and he wanted to be buried near them.

    Rebbe Nachman explicitly taught that the gravesites of tzaddikim literally have the kedushah of E”Y. So it’s clear he would be in favor of people visiting Uman from Israel–at least his chassidim.

    However, unlike most other Chassidic rebbes Rebbe Nachman placed a great emphasis on the importance of visiting, and living in, Israel. (Rebbe Nachman taught that we should all yearn for visiting Israel even if we can’t, and Reb Nosson wrote many prayers on this theme–in Likutei Tefilos, which Rav Kook was known to often have with him.) For that reason, the vast majority of Breslovers live in Israel. Well-known Breslover rabbis, like Rabbi Lazer Brody and Rav Shalom Arush, are always trying to convince people to make aliyah.

    #1573291

    Avi K
    Participant

    Yytz, if the grave has the kedusha of EY why not live there already? Besides, they are giving parnassa to a people who antisemitic cruelty even shocked the SS ym”s. They even have a city call Chmielnitzky and a statue of him ym”s in the center of Kiev. Moreover, as Rav Kook pointed out, EY has the greatest tzaddikim of all time – the Avot and Emahot. According to RN’s sheeta that is at least double kedusha. BTW, both
    Rav Ovadia and Rav Mazuz blasted them for going on Rosh HaShana and leaving their families.

    #1574312

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Yytz says:
    Many BTs are attracted to Breslov teachings, and so many people (especially Israelis) who are on the path to becoming frum go to Uman, and it can be an important spiritual experience for them, which encourages them.
    ————————————————–
    Sorry, but most of those chevra are not your run of the mill bt’s
    Most of them are out right druggies and worse. Dont believe me ? Go see for yourself. Dont take my word for it

    #1574308

    yytz
    Participant

    Why not live there already? They do–that’s what I just said. Breslov chassidim generally live in Israel, but travel to Uman for Rosh HaShana when possible.

    You may have point about the Ukranians, but you can’t move a kever when the chassidim are against it. The Jews who live in Uman say that anti-Semitic incidents are pretty rare.

    Rav Kook was always very close to Breslov chassidus and chassidim. He closely associated with them as soon as he moved to Israel. (Rav Kook even suggested he was the gilgul of Rebbe Nachman!) His son almost become a Breslover chassid. Denouncing people for following basic Breslov chassidus is not something Rav Kook would approve of.

    It’s to be expected that some non-Breslover rabbis would speak against going to Uman. But Breslovers have to follow their Rebbe, and their rabbis, nearly all of whom say to visit Uman if possible. About leaving their families, chassidim have always visited their rebbe on certain holidays. There’s even a halacha that you’re supposed to. (And there’s no halacha that you have to be in town with your family on R”H).

    However, if their families don’t want them to go, or can’t manage without them, they don’t go. It’s not that different from leaving your family for a few days to go to America or Meron or whatever.

    #1574343

    Avi K
    Participant

    YYtz,
    1. Rav Kook saw the positive side of Chassidut and was himself a descendant of the Baal haTanya. However, he also had strong criticisms of its attitude towards rebbes. I never heard that he considered himself tם be a gilgul of RN.

    2. See Mishpat Cohen 147 in which Rav Kook dounts that there is any mitzva to go to a tzaddik’s grave. Furthermore, he states that going to see one’s rav is only a live rav (Rav Tuchichinsky brings down in Gesher haChaim 2:25 that one who talks to a dead person may be over on derisha el hamitrim and if he prays to him on avoda zara).

    2. Rav Tzvi Yehuda (his only son) certainly did not almost become a Breslover. In fact, he was very much a mitnagged and said that his Torah is a continuation of the Gra’s. In any case, almost never counts except in ring toss and hand grenades.

    #1574571

    yytz
    Participant

    Google “I am the soul of Rebbi Nachman” and you’ll see what I’m talking about. I’ve seen the reference elsewhere too, but I don’t remember where. It’s unclear what he meant by it.

    In a recent English biography of Rav Kook, it describes letters between Rav Kook and Rav Tzvi Yehudah in which the latter talked of his desire to become a full-fledged Breslover, but his father discouraged him, advising him to be more like himself–influenced by chassidus and various other sources instead of being a follower of a single individual.

    Many dati leumi people today are strongly influenced by Breslov (as in the Chavakuk movement (Chabad-Breslov-Kook)), so even today there are many followers of Rav Kook who go to Uman.

    #1574761

    yytz
    Participant

    Takes2toTango: It’s completely false that “most” Israelis on their way to becoming BTs who go to Uman are “druggies or worse.” Just because you have a false stereotype in your head about Breslov BTs does not mean you should spread this falsehood on the Internet.

    For example, NaNachs are very visible and many people’s idea of what a Breslover is, but in fact NaNachs are only a tiny proportion of all Breslovers and all BTs. And contrary to what you might think, most NaNachs don’t have anything to do with drugs. (That said, I personally don’t agree with their hashkafa).

    Breslov has always had some interesting characters, since there’s no membership list and anyone can just call themselves a Breslover and thereby become one in other people’s eyes, but that doesn’t mean that most are into bad things. As with any Orthodox group, the vast majority are fine, upstanding people.

    #1574875

    Avi K
    Participant

    Yytz, I have not seen the exact letter or what RTY wrote so I cannot comment. However, in later years he very much de-emphasized his father’s Chassidic influences. You are correct though that anyone can call himself a Breslover (just as anyone can call himself a Chabadnik). This is also a negative as a Chassidut without a rebbe is like a ship without a captain. This leads to all sorts of distortions (e.f. NaNachs and Yechis) who reflect badly on the whole group. BTW, when someone suggested forming a network of “Batei Avraham” Rav Kook said “don’t make Kookistim”. He believed that all groups in Troah have some truth and one should take from all.

    #1575849

    yytz
    Participant

    Avi, you may have a point about what sometimes happens when there is no living rebbe, but in practice, there have always been several Breslov manhigim in each generation who functioned as leaders, giving people advice and so on. For example, today there are many chashuv Breslov leaders today–Rav Shalom Arush, Rav Elazar Kenig, etc.

    Rebbe Nachman was opposed to hereditary rebbes, which most other chassidic groups have had, perhaps because it tends to create a social system in which people rely vicariously on the rebbe’s spiritual attainments instead of focusing on developing themselves by implementing the rebbe’s teachings. For example, as recounted in Reb Noson’s biography, a chassidic rebbe confided in Reb Noson that he was jealous of Breslov chassidim because his chassidim mainly came to him for blessings about material problems, while Breslovers were focused on enhancing their avodas Hashem.

    #1575872

    Avi K
    Participant

    Yytz, the problem is when they make the dead rebbe into an a”z. For example, by davening to him

    #1575946

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Avi K, R Shalom Arush just put out a paper warning that it is assur to daven to a tzaddik. The “Tziyon Hakadosh”, a Breslov guide to the Tziyon, writes explicitly one may not daven to a tzaddik. I have gone to Uman many years, and I have never seen someon davening to a tzadik (asking him to talk to Hashem,, yes, which is muttar) but davening to him, never.

    Its typical litvish am haratzus to think any sort of avoda zara is going on.

    #1575983

    Avi K
    Participant

    Yeshivishrockstar, TY for informing me. I wonder how many Breslovers will heed his pesak. I was told by a Breslover in so many words that someone who goes to Uman will receive salvation from <b>Rabbi Nachman</b>. When I told him that this is a”z he called me an apikoros. Of course, as I posted above anyone can call himself a Breslover.

    BTW, according to Rav Tuchichinsky (see my post above for the link) there are opinions that even asking him to intercede with Hashem is assur.

    #1578832

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Think, the machlokes rishonim about machnisei rachamin at the end of selichos, and all the comments on both sides.

    I’m not “concerned” there is any avoda zara going on. Laitzanus, hollelus and other “woodstock like” stuff going on, yeah, that is my concern.

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