Unacceptable Grammar

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  • #1737705

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Taleisim, Shabbosim, Rebbeim. Why is this acceptable?

    #1737741

    ๐Ÿ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    It’s Yiddish.

    #1737763

    Joseph
    Participant

    Because language naturally and rightfully evolves. Any language, that is.

    #1737835

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Why is this acceptable? ”

    what is the problem? , do you have trouble understanding any of those words? do you think there was anyone ever who was ever genuinely confused ” Taleisim what on Earth are those? Oh Talisos”

    (My favorite is Yated Neman, which should be Yased Nemanah See Devarim 23:14 ื•ึฐื™ึธืชึตึ›ื“ ืชึผึดื”ึฐื™ึถึฅื” ืœึฐืšึธึ– ืขึทืœึพืึฒื–ึตื ึถึ‘ืšึธ)

    #1737891

    GAON
    Participant

    Ubiq,

    Agreed – rather, it should be listed as “acceptable” grammar.

    Not everything that is incorrect grammar is “unacceptable”.
    There is grey area as well.. especially as it becomes integrated with English and other languages..

    #1737876

    akuperma
    Participant

    Why is it a problem?

    BTW, and what language are you objecting to (Yiddish, English) and which dialect (YIVO Yiddish, Queen’s English, Brooklynese).

    It appears based on what one hears in America, that both Shabbos and Tallis are evolving masculine form plurals. Such happens in living languages, such as Yiddish and the developing “frum” dialect of English.

    I suggest it is actually the initial period of a new Jewish language but that will take a while to settle down before scholars decide that Judeo-English is a language (in all fairness, many argued that Yiddish was just a type of German “jargon” until World War II when we decided we didn’t want to speak German anymore).

    #1737975

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Shtusim.

    #1738172

    Shtusim

    Lol

    #1738212

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Anivus? Ameilus? Lomdus? These are NOT words. What’s wrong with simply saying the Hebrew word?? You wanna keep Ashkenaz Havara? No problem. So say “Shabbasos”, “Talisos”, “Amal”.

    #1738250

    You wanna keep Ashkenaz Havara?

    No. I want to say “ameilus”. And “lomdus”. And “taleisim”. Etc. And it really doesn’t matter that you think they’re not real words. I’ll use them anyway.

    Oh, by the way, “wanna” isn’t really a word.

    #1738247

    ๐Ÿ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    People who speak Russian are actually speaking Spanish, but they are spelling and pronouncing every single word extremely incorrectly.

    #1738315

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    @YabiaOmer – if you’re going to rant against others’ grammar, make sure your own is correct. It’s not “tallisos” but “talliyos”.

    #1738309

    rational
    Participant

    It is difficult to change the vernacular, and as many said here, language is dynamic and ever-changing. Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable to say shabbosim and taleisim and shtusim.

    That said, I suspect that even the “who cares” contingent here will correct the ba’al kore if he leins ืฉื‘ืข ืฉื‘ืชื™ื ืชืžื™ืžื•ืช ืชื”ื™ื™ื ื”. So, sometimes it matters, and when it does, it matters alot.

    One of the most amusing mistakes found in the mefarshim is on the first page of the standard Ritv”a Al Hashas found in every standard beis medrash and Jewish home of the learned. It says that the new edition has corrected all the ื˜ืขื•ืชื™ื from the older editions. I always laugh at that faux pas.

    #1738344

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Here’s another. Bedieved??? Even Artscroll vowelizes it correctly BediAVAD.

    #1738341

    lakewhut
    Participant

    It’s an anglicized way of saying those things.

    #1738349

    rational
    Participant

    the plural of ื˜ืœื™ืช is ื˜ืœื™ืชื•ืช

    #1738381

    Yussel
    Participant

    When did “Asei” become “Essay”?

    #1738396

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    I always find it funny when people rant against the errors of others while remaining ignorant of their own deficiencies. In a famous story, a man came to Rav Moshe Feinstein to complain about the lack of knowledge of dikduk among yeshivaleit. In the way common among Americans, the man vocalized diduk with the stress mile’eil – DIK-duk. Rav Moshe gently corrected him, saying, “it’s actually dik-DUK.”

    #1738440

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Ubiquitin: The name Yated Neeman was given by the Steipler zt”l, based on a posuk in Yeshaya 22:23

    #1738518

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    It seems like Ashkenazic communities adopted a Mil’el pronunciation. ShAbbos, TOrah, SHImon, deVARim aSUrim. It’s funny when some try to over compensate but making things that are truly Mil’el into Milra (meLECH).

    #1738500

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Talles is not feminine. It’s not originally a Hebrew word, and therefore does not need to follow Hebrew grammar, and does not need to be categorized as masculine or feminine. The nekuda on the lamed is not a chirik but a tzeireh or a segol, because in the original Greek that vowel is an epsilon; Ben Yehuda was the one who unilaterally changed it to a chirik.

    BTW, Yabia, do you say tehillim or tehilloth?

    #1738501

    Milhouse
    Participant

    midwesterner, If the title is based on that posuk then it’s certainly an error. In the posuk the feminine ื™ืชื“ is being put in a ืžืงื•ื ื ืืžืŸ; since ืžืงื•ื is masculine, the adjective is too.

    #1738502

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Now here’s something really unacceptable. The official English name of BMG in Lakewood contains a blatant error: It should be Govoah, not Govoha. (It should also be Midrosh, not Medrash.)

    #1738503

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    midwesterner

    thanks, though ื•ึผืชึฐืงึทืขึฐืชึผึดึฅื™ื• ื™ึธืชึตึ–ื“ ื‘ึผึฐืžึธืงึฃื•ึนื ื ึถืึฑืžึธึ‘ืŸ ื•ึฐื”ึธื™ึธึ›ื” ืœึฐื›ึดืกึผึตึฅื ื›ึธื‘ึ–ื•ึนื“ ืœึฐื‘ึตึฅื™ืช ืึธื‘ึดึฝื™ื•ืƒ, (courtesy of sefaria) in that passuk the “place” is neeman, not the “yated”

    YO
    “…These are NOT words. …You wanna keep …”
    congrats you win the internet for today!

    #1738577

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Milhouse, if you’re correct, this explains why Syrians call it Talet and not Talit. Never understood why.

    #1738661

    Rif
    Participant

    It’s disturbing when people say “Dvar Toros” instead of the Divrei Torah.

    #1738662

    rational
    Participant

    Once again.
    ืฆื™ืฆืช, ืฆื™ืฆื™ื•ืช
    ื˜ืœื™ืช, ื˜ืœื™ืชื•ืช
    That’s just the way it is. There are rules and there are exceptions to the rules.
    Milhouse’s comment on the lack of gender to the word talit was very interesting and enlightening.
    The Israeli ืืงื“ืžื™ื” ืœืœืฉื•ืŸ grapples with these issues on a constant basis

    #1738645

    yitzyk
    Participant

    Trivia note: The Malbim’s peirush on Tanach includes a volume called “Tehillos” rather than “Tehillim”.

    If your set of Malbim doesn’t, that may be a modern publisher’s modification. The set in my Shul has it the way I described.

    #1739068

    belgiumbull
    Participant

    BTW acceptable is a French word i think we should stop using that word!

    #1739154

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Zechusim. BTW is ื–ื›ื•ืช masculine or feminine?

    #1739150

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    Rational – the plural of tallis in Chazal is talliyos. You can find this in the Mishna in Zavim, as well as in a few places in Gemara. There is one instance of “tallisos” in some editions of the Gemara Shabbos, but the Munich ms. and accurateeditions have it as talliyos.

    #1739186

    Milhouse
    Participant

    “Zechus” in Hebrew is feminine, and the plural is “Zechuyos”. “Zechusim”, like “Shabosim”, “Taleisim”, “Taneisim”, etc., is correct Yiddish.

    #1739217

    akuperma
    Participant

    Baruch ha-Shem that Yiddish, Hebrew and “Judeo-English” (yeshivish, Brooklynese) are LIVING language. If you want a language that is fixed in stone, consider Babylonian or Latin.

    #1739211

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    So why do we write ื–ื™”ืข. Zechuto Yagen Alenu and not Tagen (although I have heard people SAY Tagen)

    #1739247

    DBMH
    Participant

    Why is “unacceptable” grammar accepted? It is accepted because if an Ashkenazi goes through the frum world talking about Shabbatot, talitot, etc., people will think that he is weird, or worse: that he is a Tzioni, ha ha.

    One could write a book about all of the mangling of pronunciation and grammar (English as well as Hebrew) that are part of the normative frum dialect, but it would not change the way that people speak. As an example, take the expression “shala shudis”. Shala is not a word, nor is shudis, but everyone knows what shala shudis means, and hardly anyone thinks twice to say “shalos seudos”, or more precisely, “seudah shelishees.”

    Perhaps there is some measure of pride and identity that come from not speaking in a fancy way; for example, to show that we are not like Maskilim who taught vocabulary and dikduk for the sake of their literature and theater, but neglected (or outright rejected) teaching Torah u’mitzvos.

    Personally, I “am mispallel” to “be zocheh” to learn the intricacies of the Torah and Loshon Hakodesh. ๐Ÿ™‚

    #1739303

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    “Why is โ€œunacceptableโ€ grammar accepted? It is accepted because if an Ashkenazi goes through the frum world talking about Shabbatot, talitot, etc., people will think that he is weird, or worse: that he is a Tzioni, ha ha.” ABSOLUTELY. It’s part of the meshugas that I always refer to. I was once told that saying synagogue is “less frum”.

    I don’t think there’s any excuse for soaking poorly like that. What does Shalos Seudos even mean? Three meals . But you’re trying to say Third Meal. Never understood that.

    #1739295

    rational
    Participant

    In Tanach, there are words that operate as male or female. The most famous is ื“ืจืš , as anyone who studied the beginning of masechet kiddushin knows. Others are ืืจืฅ, ืงืฆื”, ื™ืชื“,ื“ื•ื‘ , and many others.

    There are essentially three dialects that we deal with, each with its own rules and quirks. One is Lashon Tanachi, second is Lashon Chachamim-Chazal (mishna, gemara, siddur and machzor) and the third is Vernacular-Modern Hebrew (ืขื‘ืจื™ืช ืžื“ื•ื‘ืจืช). Of course there are subgroups and sub-sub groups.

    In spoken Hebrew, the plural of ื˜ืœื™ืช is ื˜ืœื™ืชื•ืช. So declared the ืืงื“ืžื™ื” ืœืœืฉื•ืŸ. Proofs from Chazal are not proofs, they are just ืœืฉื•ืŸ ื—ื–”ืœ. Notice that Chazal replaced the Tanachic ืฉ (sin) with a ืก ( samech). Why? It served their purposes. Right or wrong? Inappropriate and irrelevant question. They did it because they wanted to.

    In any case, it is foolish to make fun or denigrate anyone who utilizes vernacular instead of sticking to the rules. The rules are not always operable, and different systems have different rules. I like rules, they help us understand each other. Breaking them may be annoying, but hardly a crime.

    #1739466

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    YO
    “I donโ€™t think thereโ€™s any excuse for soaking poorly like that”

    what was your excuse for this “You wanna keep Ashkenaz Havara” ?

    “What does Shalos Seudos even mean? Three meals . But youโ€™re trying to say Third Meal. Never understood that.”

    Ask and you shall receive?
    There is a classic vort I believe attributed to the Minchas Elazar, that by eating the third meal, you get schar for all three, hence “shalosh Seudos”. how so? Eating a Friday night mea, isnt necessarily done lekavod Shabbos, we eat supper every day. similarly the second meal, we eat lunch every day. However a third meal, especially on a short afternoon, THAT is unusual, most of u s dont sit down to wash have a meal 3 hours after lunch. by doing so we get credit for all three meals, as this shows out eating is (and was) lekavod Shabbos .

    Seriously though, the question is a bit silly. expressions dont always “make sense” my kid asks “why do you say take a bath, where do you take it?” Language often has quirks that arent “logical” per se

    rational
    do you have an example where ื™ืชื“ operates in the masculine?

    #1739477

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    Rational: hence my point. If YO wants to pluralize as tallisos because that is the vernacular in spoken Hebrew, gezunterheit. But then he should not be outraged at those who pluralize talleisim because that is the vernacular in Yiddish.

    YO: one reason we call it Shalosh Seudos is because there is a mitzvah to eat three meals on Shabbos. When eating the first two, however, there is no indication that we are doing it for the mitzvah, since it is normal to eat a meal at night and a meal in the morning. When we eat the third meal, however, which is usually much earlier than the evening meal is typically eaten (especially in the winter months),we are showing that even those first two meals were eaten not because of convention, but for the mitzvah. Therefore we refer to that third meal as Three Meals, because that is the “megaleh” on all three.

    #1739534

    rational
    Participant

    Ubiquitin: Here you go

    “ืึดื ื™ึดืงึฐื—ื•ึผ ืžึดืžึผึถื ึผื•ึผ ื™ึธืชึตื“ ืœึดืชึฐืœื•ึนืช ืขึธืœึธื™ื• ื›ึผึธืœ ื›ึผึถืœึดื™” (ื™ื—ื–ืงืืœ ื˜ื•:ื’

    “ืชื•ืงืข ื™ืชื“ ื‘ืืจืฅ ื•ืกื•ืžืš ืขืœื™ื• ืืช ื”ืงื•ืจื”” (ืชื•ืกืคืชื ื‘ื‘ื ื‘ืชืจื ื, ื’

    #1739539

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    So when you say “Shalosh Seudot” what you are in effect saying is “[The meal in which we get credit for] three meals” ?

    Tangentially, some communities referred to a boy’s Bar Mitzvah as his “Tefilin” or the Hanukkah Menora as “Hanukkah” (not hanukkiya).

    #1739546

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    rational
    Thanks a ton!

    YO
    sure!

    Or,

    it is just a colloquial expression, that doesn’t technically make sense . Language is peppered with countless examples. ( Take a bath, redundancies like ATM machine PIN number)

    take your pick of the above, whichever helps you sleep better

    Though hopefully nobody greets you with a “Good/gut Yontiff” since I’ll bet that one will really make your head spin, and I dont even have a vertel to explain why “yom-tov” became yontiff (does anybody?)
    and on top of that all if you are a literalist and translate Yom Tov/ Yontiff as “good day” then if you were to be wished “gut Yontiff” they would be saying “good good day”
    oh boy

    wishing you and your family a Great yontif (oops)

    and as the the old joke (?) goes if you meet the pope, on Shavuos be sure to greet him with a hearty “good Yontiff pontif”

    #1739558

    Old Crown Heights
    Participant

    My meal late Saturday afternoon is shaleSHUdes, and my meal Sunday morning is โ€œbrekkfist.โ€ Not break FAST. The guy who stood at the lectern leading the minyan is said to have davened farren UHmid, or in Brooklyn Yinglish, โ€œdavened fiโ€™ the UHmid.โ€

    #1739593

    Old Crown Heights
    Participant

    To Milhouse: Regarding your post on another thread, to me, ‘hakkeh es shinov’ means knock his teeth out. I tune out when people tell me otherwise. I do my best to forget that this is incorrect, because ‘punch the villain in the mouth’ is a lot more fun than whatever the phrase really means.

    #1739608

    laskern
    Participant

    The Kedusha of shabbos increases as the day progresses. ื‘ื”, ื‘ื•. ื‘ื. The Chasam Sofer explains that is why in the morning we make a kedusha rabba. There are three tefilos which the Tur explains is against three shabosos, shabbos of creatiion, shabbos of kabolas hatorah and all eternal shabbos. The afternoon is the holiest of the three having the sudah against all three.

    #1739613

    motchah11
    Participant

    There is also a Kabbalistic reason for calling it Sholosh Seudos. Friday night the Yidden are in a state of kabbalah — accepting the kedushah from Shabbos. It is for that reason we say “Viyanuchu bah” — loshon nikaivah, during Friday night maariv, because loshon nikaivah is used in Kabbalah to indicate reception.

    Shabbos by day we are in bichinas mashpiah — the state of influencing, that is, we bring kedushah into the world. This is why we say during davening by day on Shabbos, “Viyanuchu bo” — loshon zachor, because loshon zachor is used in Kabbalah to indicate giving, emitting.

    During the time of “Sholoh Shudos” (Sholosh Seudos), we are in a third state: that of both receiving and giving at the same time. Therefore we say “Viyanuchu bom,” loshon rabim during minchah on Shabbos.

    Therefore, “Sholo Shudos” is a time where all three seudos Shabbos come together and act as one, which is why we call it Sholosh Seudos” instead of Seudat Shlishis.

    #1739688

    rational
    Participant

    “There are three tefilos which the Tur explains is against three shabosos,”

    Ouch. K’neged does not mean “against”. Translating to imply the opposite of the intent makes the sentence incomprehensible. K’neged means parallel to or representative of. Not “against”. No offense.

    #1739737

    AhvasChinom
    Participant

    Technically Taliyyos and Talisos are both considered acceptable and even correct. Taleisim is not, though you could argue that it is Yiddish. What bothers me more, is hearing talmidei chakhamim say, v’aHAVta or v’dibBARta in K’rias Sh’ma, considering I assume they would want to be yotzei l’khatt’chila, or saying, v’aKHALta in K’rias Sh’ma or bentching, both of which are d’Oraisa. BTW, it’s Divrei Sorah, Shom’rei Sorah, Machazikei Sorah and the like, after eheve”i โ€” rafa, except if it were the first of a repeated letter, or occasionally two letters from the same motza, especially s’fasios, i.e., buma”f. In mikra, it works only after a m’shares, not a mafsik. You find it a little more often in Sifrei Eme”s, which allow two consecutive m’shar’sim in situations where Sifrei Khaf-Alef do not. That said, in transliteration, it is acceptable to leave the dagesh kal.

    #1739759

    laskern
    Participant

    rationnal, in yiddish we translate as kegen which gets translated against. ื›ื ื’ื“ ืืจื‘ืข ื‘ื ื™ื ื“ื‘ืจื” ืชื•ืจื” it is true the Satmar Rav ztz’l translates that the Torah is against and does not agree with any of the children. ืืขืฉื” ืœื• ืขื–ืจ ื›ื ื’ื“ื• translated I will make him a helper corresponding to him. The Midrash says ื–ื›ื” ืขื–ืจ ืœื ื–ื›ื” ื›ื ื’ื“ื•. I translated it from yiddish.

    #1739761

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Rational
    I’m not sure what you are saying keneged does mean “against” see Rashi to “ezer kinegdo”

    Against has multiple definitions including facing which is the sense that it is meant here, though perhaps corresponding would be a better word choice

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