Unacceptable Grammar

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  • #1739762

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    rational, look up the dictionary, against can have the meaning in comparison to. They are on opposite sides being matched up with each other.

    #1739770

    Rif
    Participant

    We only have one Torah, and yet people say dvar toros, sefer toros. There is no plural for Torah. The plural of dvar Torah is divrei Torah, the plural of sefer Torah is sifrei Torah.
    Does anyone care?

    #1739803

    motchah11
    Participant

    I keep getting notices in my email whenever anyone posts something here. How do I turn it off?

    #1739809

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    motchah11, look at your profile for subscription and click on the red buton next to the listed item.

    #1739830

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    I am surprised that no one made any mention of the common mistake of putting adjective/description before the noun as is done in English. For example
    Chosheve mosad or chosheve bachur (vs. mosad chashuv)

    Chanuka mesiba (vs. Mesibas chanuka)

    Purim seuda (vs. seduas purim)

    You may also realize that that there is no term in the sefarim of shalach manos (mishloach manos)

    BTW the same people who defend the Yeshivishe way of talking should also defend Ebonics (spoken by African American lower class) as a vald dialect that should be respected. They really are quite parallel.

    #1739844

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Chosheve mosad or chosheve bachur (vs. mosad chashuv)

    Chanuka mesiba (vs. Mesibas chanuka)

    Purim seuda (vs. seduas purim)

    These are all Yiddish, and perfectly correct Yiddish, which should not be surprising since Yiddish is related to English.

    #1739849

    rational
    Participant

    I looked it up in the dictionary and below is what I found. I am aware that the Hebrew k”neged can be used as “in opposition to” and in lashon chachamim as intending “corresponding to” as in “k”neged arba’ah banim”, which obviously does not mean “adverse to”.
    That was my objection to the translation of k’neged as “against”. I do not see in the definition below any mention of the word “against” as “corresponding to”, as all the descriptions are along the lines of “in opposition to, adverse to”, that is, a negative connotation. The third seudah on Shabbat is definitely not negatively disposed to or “against” any kabbalistic or Jewish concept.

    I do accept the explanation above that it is a translation from Yiddish. I am not interested in criticizing perverted translations from Yiddish to English, except to say they are incomprehensible to someone who grew up speaking American English.

    a·gainst
    /əˈɡenst/
    Learn to pronounce
    preposition
    1.
    in opposition to.
    “the fight against crime”
    synonyms: opposed to, in opposition to, hostile to, averse to, antagonistic toward, inimical to, unsympathetic to, resistant to, at odds with, in disagreement with, contra; More
    2.
    in anticipation of and preparation for (a problem or difficulty).
    “insurance against sickness and unemployment”
    synonyms: in case of, in/as provision for, in preparation for, in anticipation of, in expectation of
    “it is advisable to insure all oriental rugs against theft”

    #1739852

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Good point CTRebbe.

    #1739851

    rational
    Participant

    “against can have the meaning in comparison to. They are on opposite sides being matched up with each other.”

    Precisely. The two are “not the same”.They are being compared, meaning there are distinctions and differences between them that are being noted. That is in contradiction to what is meant by “seudah shlishit is k’neged spiritual attributes of shabbat”

    In order to understand the use of “against” in this context, one must first translate it back into the Hebrew k’neged, and then switch to the medrashic use of the word instead of its more direct meaning. Convoluted.

    I’m signing off.
    Shabbat Shalom and Chag Sameach from Israel the Zionist Jewish State.
    Gut Shabbes and Gut Yuntiff from Eretz Yisroel.

    #1739911

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Rif; You’re dikduk point is correct however we do have more than one Torah as is written in Parshas Bechukosay, ” Hatoros”.

    #1739926

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Ahavat Chinam: That is the CORRECT pronunciation though. Not following. Those words are milel.

    #1740584

    yitzyk
    Participant

    When I heard my son refer to the Kodesh HaKodoshim (Holiest of Holies – the innermost chamber of the Beis Hamikdash) as “Kudshei Kodshim”, Ignoring the slang/accent, I corrected him, explaining that Kodshei Kodoshim are the category of Korbonos (Sacrifices including Olos and Chataos) that are Holier than regular Kodshim (such as Shelamim). Thus they can be plural. But there is only one Kodesh HaKodoshim, and it is Holier than the Kodesh (middle chamber of the Bais Hamikdash). He in turn passed my comment on to his Rebbe, who acknowledged my point.

    However, afterwards I noticed that sometimes even the Mishna and Gemara also interchanges the same supposedly incorrect term of Kodshei Kodoshim. So unless there is a Girsa correction that the Bach or other commentators failed to notice, this problem of incorrect Grammer or Word usage has been going on for thousands of years! Or else my observation on which usage is more correct is actually incorrect – but I don’t know why yet.

    #1740587

    yitzyk
    Participant

    The word K’neged clearly has two possible meanings – a) Corresponds/equivalent to, or b) Against. This dual meaning has often been used as Drush to reveal a second ‘hidden’ meaning in various pesukim or sayings of Chazal.

    One of them was quoted above from the Satmar Rebbe Zatza”l.
    Another was the drasha quoted above about Eizer K’Negdo.

    How would you explain Talmud Torah K’Neged Kulam?

    #1740674

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Torah is equivalent to all other mitzvot combined. What is so hard to understand?

    #1741246

    yitzyk
    Participant

    I meant if you insist on the other meaning of K’Neged (against.)

    #1741249

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    I think Milhouse proved my point. When people make grammatical errors when using Hebrew terms people just write it off by saying “oh that’s just Yiddish”. That is essentially saying that Yiddish the language is spoken by low-class ignoramuses who could care less what they sound like. That is an exact parallel to ebonics. For those of you who are not familiar with Ebonics here are some examples with the translation. Believe it or not there are academics who study this stuff…

    “I ast Ruf could she bring it ovah to Tom crib.” ( I asked Ruth if/whether she could bring it over to Tom’s place.)

    “Befo’ you know it, he be done aced de tesses.” ( Before you know it, he will have already aced the tests.)

    Don’t be trippin’ – Do not be anxious

    I ain’t gonna be no chump, you know what I sayin? (I will not be easily deceived, understood?)

    #1741260

    AhvasChinom
    Participant

    Yabia Omer, the words ahavta, dibarta, akhalta and the like, in those mishkalim, are mill’eil when used in past tense. The ones I quoted, preceded by a vav ham’hapekhes (or “hahippukh,” if you prefer), as in v’ahavTA (meseg/g’ayya – secondary accent on the aleph’s open syllable) or v’dibbarTA bam in K’rias Sh’ma, uveirakhTA in bentching, and v’akhalTA in both, are most certainly mill’ra, accented on the final, ultimate syllable, and thus in future tense, and should, at least l’khatt’chila be pronounced as such.. It is brought down that the kavvana should not be spoiled by trying to be m’dakdek, but if talmidim learn it properly the first time, it shouldn’t impact the kavvana. The change in meaning is certainly enough to require going back in k’rias HaTorah, even though that is normally d’Rabbanan. Of course, if done, it must be done beforehand, or in a way that does not embarrass anyone, so that one is not oveir on a d’Oraisa in the process of being machmir on a d’Rabbanan, to paraphrase something that has been said b’shem R Soloveitchik zt”l. The accent would not change in certain conditions, e.g., in a tzuras hefsek/pausal form, as in the second of V’AkhalTA v’saVAta; uVEIrakhTA… or in a nasog achor situation, to avoid adjacent accented syllables, such as v’aKHALta sham (with a dagesh chazzak in the shin) in Parashas R’ei. Incidentally, Mishnah B’rura clearly holds to go back even between a pashta and a kadma, even though I would estimate that a large percentage of ba-alei k’ria, especially among Ashkenazim in America, are not even aware that they are very different. Unfortunately, neither are many Bar Mitzva teachers, which just perpetuates the problem.

    #1741359

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Very interesting Ahavat Chinam. Taamei hamikra were taught to us at a young age. Big emphasis on that.

    #1741373

    ari-free
    Participant

    you know if someone is Israeli if he says ‘chamesh shekel’ instead of ‘chamisha shkalim’

    #1741374

    ari-free
    Participant

    People who know how to learn, speak yeshivish and learn gemara. People who don’t know how to learn, speak proper Hebrew and learn dikduk…
    The same is true of every field. Those that can’t solve problems like to think they are superior by pointing out grammatical mistakes instead of making useful contributions to the world.

    #1741467

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    That’s another meshugas and fallacy churned out by the ‘A’ community. Somehow if you’re meticulous in non Kodesh fields you’re somehow less religious. Only ‘A’ people can think like that.

    A true Talmid Chacham knows how to learn Gemara AND to be meticulous in grammar. Speaking the artificial, American-made Yeshivish is a sign of Am haartzut. However, people have been taught to think that “I am so frum, chas veshalom that I should know how to speak properly and know worldly things”. It seems from 2 things: ignorance and yehora. Very very bad combo.

    All the rabbonim we were exposed to were Genoi olam PLUS knew all facets of the Torah and the world. Non of this low-end low-caliber “A” stuff.

    #1741721

    Milhouse
    Participant

    No, CTLawyer, Yiddish is not “the language is spoken by low-class ignoramuses”. All the examples you gave are not incorrect Hebrew but correct Yiddish. Since Yiddish is rather closely related to English, it should not be surprising that, as in English, adjectives precede their nouns rather than follow them as they do in Hebrew.

    #1741724

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Meticulousness in grammar is a character flaw.

    #1741742

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There are places where proper pronounciation is important as we discussed before in another OP. It changes the meaning. ידמו כאבן. Having a dagesh chazek in the the dalet makes it yidumu meaning silent whereas yidmu means similar or like.

    #1741745

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    “Could care less” is worse than speaking a local dialect.

    #1741749

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If you think that people who speak a different language or dialect are ignorant, that doesn’t make you smart or sophisticated, it makes you a bigot.

    #1741925

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    CTrebbe
    “… spoken by low-class ignoramuses who could care less what they sound like…”

    Yes ! I love it You win the internet today.

    which brings me to Ubiquitin’s Law of the internet:

    when the thrust of an argument is directed against criticizing, other’s grammar, it is a near certainty that said criticism will contain at least one grammatical error.

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