February 22, 2010 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #675112
Jphone, you are wrong.February 22, 2010 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #675113
Jphone, I fully agree that we need to teach our kids hashkofos haTorah. Do you volunteer to do this? At least, each of us must start with our own families.
The need for everyone’s internet usage to be filtered seems so obvious, it’s sad that we need to hear it from gedolim.February 22, 2010 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #675114
Jphone, I fully agree that we need to teach our kids hashkofos haTorah. Do you volunteer to do this? At least, each of us must start with our own families.
The need for everyone’s internet usage to be filtered seems so obvious, it’s sad that we need to hear it from gedolim.February 23, 2010 1:22 am at 1:22 am #675115
Getting drunk for the purpose of protesting modernity is no Mitzvah.
For Rabbinic Mitzvos, where there is a dispute we generally go with the smaller shiur (measurement).February 23, 2010 1:47 am at 1:47 am #675116
So what about those who do the filtering?
Aren’t they seeing the unfiltered internet since they have to decide what gets filtered?February 23, 2010 1:57 am at 1:57 am #675117
It is my understanding that it is basically computer programs or whitelists if you want more details call YeshivaNet. (718-Yeshiva)February 23, 2010 4:04 am at 4:04 am #675118JotharMember
Opendns and k9 filter your computer for free. Grey goose filters your vodka but they charge for it.
Volvie, so you agree that those who pass out in their vomit and miss the mitzvos deoraysah are not being mekayem a mitzvah?February 23, 2010 4:29 am at 4:29 am #675119
Jothar, Ben Levi mentioned that the Seder Hayom states that one is to become inebriated on Purim to the point that they are rolling on the floor throwing up. So I don’t agree with your statement about passing vomit, but do agree with you that one who misses the mitzvos deoraysah are not being mekayem a mitzvah.February 23, 2010 8:16 am at 8:16 am #675120anuranParticipant
I’ve been involved with making and analyzing some of those filters. For the most part they are a joke. Yes, they will catch a lot of the naughty pictures. But they are often (usually?) made by bored, underpaid workers at companies who mostly trade the same stuff back and forth or by organizations with other axes to grind. Depending on the axe La Leche League, the Anti-Defamation League and the Skeptical Inquirer might be banned while Bassett Hound Lust – which I fervently hope does not exist – could make it through.
And yes, LLL, the ADL and SI were filtered on one list I had a chance to examine some years back. Neo-Nazi websites and ones chock-full of malware made it through just fine.February 23, 2010 11:03 am at 11:03 am #675121goWTBYMember
well u can put it like this unfilterd internet is like the chanuka story where we were attacked spritualy and drinkin is like the purim story where we were attacked physicaly so y reinact itFebruary 23, 2010 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #675122anuranParticipant
gW, I’m not sure I understand what you mean.February 23, 2010 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #675123SJSinNYCMember
I don’t think having unfiltered internet is bad.
I think of it like going into a grocery store – I don’t buy that which isn’t kosher.
I think many young people use the mitzvah of ad d’lo yadah as an excuse to drink excessively on Purim. I did that as a teenager.February 23, 2010 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #675124
Well if you have unfiltered access to the internet then in effect you have bought something that’s unkosher.February 23, 2010 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #675125YW Moderator-80Member
A better mashul would be going into a grocery store buying a mixture of kosher and delicious treif products, filling your pantry with them and deciding only to eat the kosher ones.February 23, 2010 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #675126
As far as ad d’loi yoda it is inappropriate for women to become intoxicated. (As ruled in many places including the Rivevois Ephraim.)
Indeed the Mishna Brura, in the laws of birkas hamazon, explains that the reason women are not obligated to make a mezuman is that a mezuman should ideally be performed on a cup of wine and it is unseemly for a woman to do this.February 23, 2010 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #675127jphoneMember
Volvie. If R’ Shmuel said that. I stand corrected.
Ben Levi. On what am I wrong?
Tomim. Yes. I teach my own kids. I hope everyone teaches theirs as well. I meant, our yeshivos.
I agree with SJS’s analogy.
No I dont drink on Purim till I’m rolling on the floor in my own vomit and yes, I have unfiltered access to the internet. My safeguard is that my wife has the password and is around when I am online.February 24, 2010 12:35 am at 12:35 am #675128
Jphone, I realize you meant the yeshivos, and that’s why I asked if you volunteer to do this. That’s basically what teachers are- volunteers (sure, they’re compensated for travel time.) Many capable teachers cannot afford to volunteer, so they don’t teach at all (except their own children) or don’t teach in our yeshivos.
Take, for example, you, Oomis, Jothar, and probably some other posters hanging around here.February 24, 2010 12:57 am at 12:57 am #675129
Jphone’ when I wrote you are wrong I meant in regard to Rav Shmuels view on the Internet secondly yeshivos can teach children how to learnd and certain aspects of hashkofa but will never be able to teach them how to be “people” that must come from the home period.
Tomim Tihye; you can not be more right about teaching my wife taught for several years and wishes she still could but ass our family grew k’h she could no longer afford to “volunteer” and had to start a buisness.February 24, 2010 12:59 am at 12:59 am #675130
Mod80 great moshul but may I point out that in respect to nisyonos of arayos there is an issur yichud however in repect to tarfus there is no such issur.February 24, 2010 2:54 am at 2:54 am #675131
We are talking about Gedarim (fences) from sin.
When you are Mamash (really) drunk, there are no Gedarim from all sin.February 24, 2010 3:03 am at 3:03 am #675132
With unfiltered internet and a sober user there is still the Geder (fence) of daas.
Perhaps additional Gedarim are needed.
With the Geder of daas, at least there is not the pseek raisha (inevitibility) of sin.
With real Mamash (I love that word) drunkenness disgrace is inevitibile.February 24, 2010 3:13 am at 3:13 am #675133
Josh, if you are referring to Purim, the shitta of Rovo (Megillah 7b) which is the basis of the Shulchan Aruch (OC 695:2) and Remo, Bach, Tur, the Shelo Hakodish, the Chacham Tzvi, Rambam, Sfas Emes, and Seder Hayom say otherwise — that drunkeness is not only permissible but required on that day of the year.February 24, 2010 3:54 am at 3:54 am #675134aries2756Participant
The problem with getting drunk is that you no longer have full control of your mind, body and soul. You can not control how much damage you will cause either yourself or others. It is not the yetzer horah working on Purim to make you drunk like possibly at other times. It is one’s own need for an excuse to drink.
As far as the computer and internet are concerned, they are tools to help us. In every generation there are going to be things that are going to tempt people to do wrong or immoral things. That is nothing new.
People need to understand that Hashem is always watching and the Yetzer Horah is always working. People have freedom of choice and they can either give into the Yetzer Horah or not. That is the job of parents and Rebbeim to teach the concept that we always stand before Melech Malchei Hamelachim and everything we do and say should be considered carefully because we are saying and doing it before the King!
In addition, when we cross the boundaries of the moral code we hurt not just ourselves but our family members, so we have to fight the yetzer horah and not give in. The internet is a very useful tool for business as well as home research in many areas. Filters are available as well as monitoring which can see where anyone who logs on goes. Computers should always be in visible areas of the home, like the kitchen where anyone can look over your shoulder and notice if you are where you shouldn’t be.
As far as movies and dvd, they can be watched on other devices that do not connect to the internet. And computers do not need to be connected to the internet either. I don’t understand the concept of smashing computers or running a yeshiva office without a computer. Would you smash a copy machine or a fax machine? A computer can be just as innocent depending on how and why it is used.
The point is TEACH our children appropriately, TEACH our children the love of Torah, Yiddishkeit and true yiras shamayim. be good role models. When we move into the positive aspect of being Yiddin and teach the beauty of this religion and the positive aspect, we will see a lot less kids going off the derech and looking for immoral, illegal, and unacceptable activities.
EDITEDFebruary 24, 2010 4:08 am at 4:08 am #675135ronrsrMember
here, here, Dear aries. Well said!February 24, 2010 4:28 am at 4:28 am #675136
The Shuluchan Aruch says you should spend 9 hours a day involved in davening.
There is more support (from the Noseh Kalim – various commentaries) that this means Mamash 9 hours (32,400 seconds), than there is support for Mamash drunkenness on Purim!!!
“that drunkeness is not only permissible but required on that day of the year”
Not the level that leads to disgrace and sin!!!February 24, 2010 5:01 am at 5:01 am #675137oomisParticipant
Aries, another really excellent post.
I have more to say, but have decided at this point that discretion is the better part of valor.February 24, 2010 6:06 am at 6:06 am #675138
There is a biblical prohibition called Yichud which basically means it is prohibited for one man and one woman to be secluded together.
The severity of this prohibition is such that there is considerable debate amonst Poskim as to whether it is Y’hurag V’al Yavor. (See Tzitz Eliezer, kuntrus on hilchos yichud)
Now basically all agree that Yichud is not an issur atzmi meaning it is not an issur because it inteslf is prohibited rather because it is prohibited because it may lead to actual Gilui Ervah (See Sefer Dvar Halach Perek Aleph.
The question then is why is Arayos different then all other issurim which do not have Biblical prohibition son that which may lead to it?
The most simple ansewer given is because Gilui Ervah is different it is something which Nafshoi Shel Odum Michemed OSam (Gemora Makos) the very essence of a persons being desires it SEfer Chassidim an Rav Tzodok as weel as the Ohr Hachaim take this to mean that when someone is faced with the oppurtunity to sin in this manner it is virtually impossible to overcome accordingly it was this issur and this alone which the Torah made a prohibition stating one is not allowed to even be in such a situation that may cause him to have the temptation to sin.
The Gemora in Sukka (HaChulil) says further Rabbah (if I remember correctly) saw a situation where one simple person actually overcame such a temptation. He began to cry stating if it would have been him he would not have been able to. A zaken ( perhaps Eliyahu HaNuvi) came and told him Don’t worry the reason you would have sinned is because Kol Hagodol M’Chavero Yitzro Gadol Himenu he who is greater then his friend has a greater yetzer hora.
The Gemora at the end of Kiddushin states the Rebi Akiva ( a Tanna compared to Moshe Rabbeinu!) would have sinned if not for a Bas Kol warning the Yetzer Hora “Hizharu B’rabi Akiva V’toraso”.
In light of all that Chazal have taught us of the dangers of this particular Yetzer Hora in my view it is particularly foolish for someone to say that ” I can Have it and I will not Sin” are they Greater the Rabi Akiva?
How can one say on the one hand it is prohibited to be alone with a strange woman for ten minutes because we are afraid he may sin. Even if he is the Gadol HaDor ( who usually has “learnt” a great deal but on the other hand is permitted to allow access to the worse temptations in his house in his very own living room.
One who feels that is akin to what the Mesilas Yeshorim says is a blind man walking on the edge of a cliff. For despite the numerous warnings of Chazal he has no idea what the Yetzer Hora is.
At the very least I would beg that person go ask Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky or Rav Aron Shechter or Rav Feivel Cohen or Rav Chaim Stein or any Gadol what is causing the single biggest churban in Klal Yisroel today unfettered access to the internet or Drinking on Purim? How much do you wish to bet on the ansewer?February 24, 2010 6:22 am at 6:22 am #675139
OK. One day vs. 300 days a year.
The desire for arayos existed before the internet was created and will exist if it collapsed.
The computer is never the real thing. It is a cold piece of metal, not a warm living human being. The computer may also keep us busy and away from real arayos.
The night the power fails there is a big surge in real arayos.
Drunkenness has been a curse on humanity throughout history. With the “vinyard of Noah” the term Vav-yud (oy) is mentioned 13 times.
As Jews through our 3300+ year history we have had a Mesorah of sobriety and therefore participated much less than our fair share in this curse.February 24, 2010 6:29 am at 6:29 am #675140
Back to one of my earlier posts, so I do not scare anyone about Judaism.
The commentaries state the Shulchan Aruch meant a real 9 hours involvement in prayer per day – only for real “Chasidim” – truly pious ones, not your average person.
Perhaps for such a person, a higher degree on inebriation can be reached on Purim without the risk of disgrace or sin.February 24, 2010 6:29 am at 6:29 am #675141
The Mesorah of many Jews for thousands of years has been to get drunk on purim.
Another Mesorah has been not be in a situation which may lead to Arayos some of the sources and reasons have been stated above in my previous Post.February 24, 2010 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #675142
I think the best Mashul would be going into a store that sells both kosher and non kosher and ‘not’ buying the non kosher products and then being told :
“You have no self control so you need to have all stores that sell any non kosher products filtered out for you so that you never get to even enter the store.
If that means that you can’t eat because you live in a small town and there are no stores that are exclusively kosher, then you must stop eating”.February 24, 2010 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #675143
The internet is an online representation of the world, if it must be filtered then the entire world must be filtered.
I remember hearing a story (I believe it was) about the Baal Shemtov and some of his talmidim.
They once went into an inn and before ordering a meal, asked all about the kashrus and who did the schecting etc…
And someone (who I think turned out to be Eliyahu Ha’Naavi, in disguise) said that people should be as careful about what comes out of their mouths as they are about what goes in.
Would anyone want to take any bets on what the Rabbonim would say is more harmful to the community if given a choice between the internet and rampant Loshon Hara combined with Sinnas Chinnom?February 24, 2010 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #675144gavra_at_workParticipant
Both issues (drinking and unfiltered internet) are similar:
It is a question of placing one’s self in a place where they can C”V be Over many Avairos.
The difference is Purim is once a year and unfiltered internet is every day, but both are dangerous.
If one can be Omed on themselves not to be Over anything (and daven Maariv with Kavanna!) by drinking then Kol Hakavod (If you are over 21). Otherwise, the Rema is someone who you are already somech on for many things.
However, since it has become the “in thing” to drink, all else seems to fall by the wayside. If only the “chumra of the week” was not to drink! (and Kavod to Rav Shmuel who is trying to push it).
hereorthere: I believe that is part of the “in town” thing, to shop only in “heimish” food stores as to not be tempted by Assur food. (Correct me if I am wrong). If they can afford it, its not such a bad geder, especially for small children.
Ben Levi: The Mesorah of many Jews for thousands of years has been to Daven Maariv (and say Krias Shma) with Kavanna (even on Purim!).
As the song goes “Shikur Iz ah Goy”. The gedolim of Europe used to spout Chiddushim when “drunk”, may we only be Zoche to get to their level.February 24, 2010 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #675145
gavra, There are many sources (many but not all listed earlier in this thread) that insist one must become drunk on Purim. There are other sources that indicate that it is permissible to become less than completely drunk, yet even they basically hold that either it is preferable to become completely drunk or at least it is permissible.
Rav Shmuel was talking to Project Yes teens at risk not to the general rabim. This is easily observed if you hang around the shikur Yeshiva bohcorim in Philly on Purim.
Age 21 is the minimum to purchase alcohol, not drink it. Someone brought a “mekor” on another thread a few days ago that legally a child can drink as much as his parents permission allow.
One can follow the shitta of Rovo as described in the Gemora (Megillah 7b) and the Shulchan Aruch (OC 695:2) and Remo, Bach, Tur, the Shelo Hakodish, the Chacham Tzvi, Rambam, Seder Hayom, and the Sfas Emes while still properly davening Maariv and saying Krias Shma with Kavanna on Purim.
And like you said about the Gedolim spouting Chiddushim when drunk – that amazing feat can still be observed amongst Yidden on Purim, from both Gedolim and the average Yankel, ad hayom hazeh on Purim!
Ah Freilichen Purim!February 24, 2010 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #675147
Kudos to you Volvie!
Again it seems to boggle the mind that poeople are more worried over drinking on Purim then unrestrained access to the worst that is out there 24 hours a day availible to one and all.
Pretty amazing.February 24, 2010 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #675148jphoneMember
The truest comment made in this thread so far was the one about chumros.February 24, 2010 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #675149gavra_at_workParticipant
volvie: Kol Hakavod to you if you can. Each person should know themselves.February 24, 2010 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #675150Just-a-guyMember
If someone has unfiltered internet at home and never looks at inappropriate material, uses it only for his job, for online banking, to keep in touch with family and friends who do not live nearby, to exchange pictures of children and grandchildren with family and occasionally to shop for items he needs. He never looks at shmutz, nor does he waste time that would otherwise be spent with his children, learning Torah or earning parnassah, has he done anything wrong?February 24, 2010 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #675151BodekParticipant
J-a-G: Granted, HE has not done anything wrong.
But what about the rest of his family????
Is he willing to take the blame for his spouse and or children looking at and being in places they would never have even dreamed exsisted had he had a proper filter on his computer.February 24, 2010 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #675152Just-a-guyMember
Bodek- that is not the point of my question. My point is that the original question asks about apples and oranges? Its shopping in a store that has both kosher and non-kosher items vs. eating a non-kosher item.February 24, 2010 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #675153BodekParticipant
sorry JAG! I didn’t have time to read the whole thread, i was just commenting on your last post…February 24, 2010 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #675154
Just-a-Guy, you raise a Halachid Shaila which must be asked of appropriate Rabbonim. However, I personally feel that the internet is certainly worse than passing women who are washing clothing in the river. In said case, the Rashbam says that if someone has a different path and still chooses to pass them by, then he is called a Rasho even if he closes his eyes.
Similarly, if one does not need the Internet for business, meaning it is not a necessity, then the simple act of having it would be wrong. Of course if one must have it for business purposes then they should have the strongest possible filters in place, and then would be considered in the category of those that are “Leka Darko Achrina.”February 24, 2010 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #675155
And if those “strongest filters” block ebay so he looses his ebay business and now has no parnossa then what?February 24, 2010 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #675157
I remember when I was in yeshivah and the first couple of years beack in the world world
after I left yeshivah.
One family I used to go to for shabbos meals would not stop syaing the absolute worst loshon hara.
Everytime I tried to point out (no matter how gently and tactfully and carefully) I was always rebuffed and excuses were made why it was ok to tell the whole community that the father suupposeldy saw for example, someone eating a cheeese burger, and everyone including those who had never heard of the guty just had to know about this.
But when them or their friends did something blatently wrong (such as beating up people in public, who got in their way when they were going somehwere) and someone mentioned this suddenly they were all aghast “How DARE you say such Loshon Hara!!!”
Some who complain about others, are the worst offenders, doing everything (and worse) they would accuse (often falsly) and attack others for.
Anyone want to take any bets that I will be accused of having talked about someone by name, when I did not?February 24, 2010 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #675160says whoMember
so what do you say to all the gedarim that were made by the chachamim?February 25, 2010 5:27 am at 5:27 am #675163ihearMember
Only an irresponsible parent would allow an unfillterd internet into their home where there are kids that can easily use it regardless of age (and I mean kids as in children and teens )iHOLD though of the prgram where one can type in the sites be4 hand and those are the only ones that can b accessed.February 25, 2010 5:36 am at 5:36 am #675164
Only an irresponsible parent would allow a bottle of whiskey into their home where there are kids that can easily use it regardless of age (and I mean kids as in children and teens).February 25, 2010 9:07 am at 9:07 am #675165bombmaniacParticipant
as for internet…ideally, yes. we should all have filters, because yes, there is a lot of harmful material to be found, or even stumbled upon on the internet. however, sometimes internet filters can get in the way and are removed because of that problem. for example, it would block google docs because google docs happens to share one aspect with google video which is blocked to prevent you from watching google videos or youtube. or ebay may be blocked when you need to order something, or whatever. ideally yes we should all have filters, sometimes though its just not possible, and while that makes the nisayon that much greater, a person will just have to work that much harder and thereby receive that much more schar. there are ways of minimizing on that, by using adblock, flashblock, and various other plugins, but sometimes use of unfiltered internet is just unavoidable.February 25, 2010 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #675166
Aren’t things only as unavoidable as we let them be?
Isn’t Yiras Shomayim the one thing that IS in our hands?February 25, 2010 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #675167
If things were only as unavoidable as we let them be then almost no one would ever die, and far more people would be rich and everyone would find their zivug on the first date
and everything would always be easy and fun.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.