Upon discovering that your shul uses Carlebach niggunim

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  • #1511053

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    What do you do when you discover that your shul uses Carlebach niggunim during Shabbos davening?

    #1511081

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Be thankful they don’t use them during weekday davening.

    #1511115

    Yerushalmit
    Participant

    Whatis the problem?
    THere is no Issur here?

    #1511302

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The problem is some of his behavior which was unacceptable

    #1511581

    BisBoy
    Participant

    What do you do when someone “innocently” starts a topic that you know is intended to and will inevitably lead to lashon hara?

    Hilchos Shmiras Halashon says: RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!

    #1511187

    meir G
    Participant

    we asked a senior godol who understands nigleh & nistar, who has big shimush from the previous door and understands shirah vezimrah for his hadrachah in our yeshivah , the rav said that now that r’ shlomo is in the olam haemes even those that had a kepeida to sing his nigunim bechayav would agree that, after petirosoh there is no inyan not too sing the nigunim

    #1511548

    The little I know
    Participant

    Avram:

    If you live out of town, you just might be stuck with the neighborhood shul. As much as I disagree with your implication, you are entitled to your opinion and feelings. However, inasmuch as there is no issur, you need to decide whether you wish to daven there. To enter a shul, and then look to modify the patterns that have developed is problematic. Are you aware that Poskim discuss the choices of niggunim on Rosh Hashonoh and Yom Kippur? They are clear that changing a nigun is frowned upon, as something that has become ingrained in the tzibbur should be left alone. So, if you’re the newcomer, you are free to consider whether you wish to daven there or look elsewhere. If you’re out of town, that may be more difficult. Regardless, the other shuls might not be different.

    As for R’ Shlomo’s behavior, no one can blame you for being repulsed by it. But his niggunim are not fraught with those behaviors or midos. Connecting the two may be your emotional reaction, but it is not halacha.

    You can always choose to be a shaliach tzibbur, and you can then choose your niggunim.

    #1511609

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What do you do when someone “innocently” starts a topic

    Avram in MD is a known troll. Be very careful with him.

    #1511615

    Snagged
    Participant

    “What do you do when you discover that your shul uses Carlebach niggunim during Shabbos davening?”

    Sing

    #1511610

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    even those that had a kepeida to sing his nigunim bechayav would agree that, after petirosoh there is no inyan not too sing the nigunim

    Maybe they would if they agreed with him, but they don’t (at least not the places I know of).

    #1511626

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Some people feel by singings his Nigunim they are endorsing some of his other activities

    I dont think people would approve of singing a niggum made by a rock star

    #1511630

    The little I know
    Participant

    ZD:

    Apples and oranges. We don’t even know who composed most niggunim. Singing them says nothing about the composer, and is certainly not an endorsement. It is related that the Viznitzer Rebbe from Monsey ZT”L once heard a nigun that he liked, and he asked that it be sung for him again several times. Someone approached the rebbe and whispered to him that this was composed by R’ Shlomo Carlebach. The Rebbe answered, “Nu, er lozt nisht?” (So, he doesn’t allow it?) And they were instructed to continue singing it. The problem with the nigun from the rock star is that it has no Yiddishe taam. It sounds like goyishe music, and that would be abominable, very inappropriate for a shul. You cannot make that comment about Carlebach nigunim.

    #1511643

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    This whole meshugaas about not usoing a nigun from Reb Shlomo, Z’TL, or Lipa or from any yid whose hashkafah some may object to can be taken to extremes. As someone else noted, the majority of nigunim have no known source and could have been composed by big some big time apikores. The shtender in the beis medrash might have been assembled in Germany from European Beechwood (as many are). If a nigun helps a yid to feel closer to the Ebeshter, thats all that counts. We don’t adopt the ethics or values of the source of music we enjory hearing or books we enjoy reading. They stand independently for the emotions and feelings they bring out in each of us as individuls.

    #1511642

    Joseph
    Participant

    TLIK: If George Soros composed a beautiful niggun you’d be okay singing it at the Shabbos table?

    #1511647

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1511648

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1511657

    limnos yameinu
    Participant

    There’s something missing in this thread.1- forget your shul, the entire Jewish nation uses his niggunim constantly .od yishama at weddings,harachaman on Succos, the list does not end. 2- anyone can feel the sincerity of his niggunim for a number of reasons a- he reached into his heart, and the situation at hand as in his uvnei yerushalayim composed in USSR Moscow. B- he never got rich from his niggunim often giving his profit to poor people at the hall,or simply doing it for free. The purity and selflessness of his niggunim are their greatest draw. 3- the bad stuff didn’t connect to his niggunim.If anything, the niggunim brought himself up from despair, possibly to teshuva.He was never ever to any degree involved in any type of heresy. Yes, there was difficulty with some of his actions, and although I’m not knowledgeable on the full subject, possibly great difficulty.None of that connected to his niggunim which clearly came from the neshama,was given free to the Jewish People and was accepted by all knowingly or not.

    #1511719

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Why not just ask your Shul to use more contemporary Jewish nigunim sung by all the current ”correct ” Jewish singers lifted right off of non Jewish rock stars singing explicit lyrics that would make your ears burn when the car next to you on the street is playing them.
    Isn’t that much better?
    Cause most people seem to have no issue with those.

    #1511730

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Brother Avram MD….
    I have a similar dilemma….
    What to do with wedding invitations nowadays?
    Beyoncé fanfares for chosson/kallah entrances…
    Heimishe melodies STOLEN by heimishe songwriters/singers from the rock world and… Voila…. morphing into
    Seeeeman Tov and such… Oh, you know them all right…
    Mmmmmm…. What to do? Should I attend..??
    Keep the faith, bro..!!

    #1511733

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    OK, so who’s going to start the “Upon Discovering Your Shul Uses George Soros Niggunim” thread?

    #1511790

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There seems to be an endless ability for segments of the frum tzibur to invest countless hours in searching out potential opportunities to create broigas with those who don’t share their hashkafah and promoting the “sinas chinam issue du jure’. How about self-mussar and waking up each morning and finding some new inyan of our own behavior we might consider changing as compared to waking up each day and starting a post about some issue in our lives that requires others to change.

    #1511885

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There seems to be an endless ability for segments of the frum tzibur to invest countless hours in searching out potential opportunities to create broigas with those who don’t share their hashkafah and promoting the “sinas chinam issue du jure’. How about self-mussar and waking up each morning and finding some new inyan of our own behavior we might consider changing as compared to waking up each day and starting a post about some issue in our lives that requires others to change.

    You first.

    #1511908

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I did. And my first thought this morning was how I personally could provide better musar to our resident kvetchers whose mission is to raise questions about others.

    #1511970

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So did I.

    #1511994

    laskern
    Participant

    We have the concept to be mekadesh the nigunim as the kalever did, so it doesn’t matter who writes it but its substance. We use Yom Kippur a hungarian melody from the Gypsy Queen written by Kalman Imre a hungarian composer.

    #1511985

    RBS_gimmel
    Participant

    The minhag in klal Yisroel is that his niggunim are acceptable, just not his derech

    #1512125

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Gadolhadorah,

    I object – I did NOT wake up at 2pm.

    #1512121

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Snagged,

    “Sing”

    What if I don’t have a good voice?

    #1512765

    ashkifard
    Participant

    Your asking what do you do, you continue what you have been doing till now, DAVEN!

    #1514987

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “Some people feel by singings his Nigunim they are endorsing some of his other activities”

    Using this logic, we would not be singing any nigunim.

    #1515016

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I was at a Satmar wedding several months ago and the music was definitely a nigun adopted from Naomi Shemer’s Yerushalayim Shel Zahav…..I don’t recall any of the chassuveh rabbonim running out and shutting off the sound system although I couldn’t see from behind the curtains

    #1517926

    Beyoncé fanfares for chosson/kallah entrances

    That part is actually a sample from a 1971 song.

    #1673171

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What if I don’t have a good voice?

    That didn’t stop the guy sitting next to me this past Shabbos.

    #1674264

    knaidlach
    Participant

    a ניגון is called קולמוס הנפש, the pen of the soul. when composing a song the composer expresses his soul into the song. when singing a song you connect to the composer in a deep way. so its very כדאי to be careful who’s songs you are singing

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