April 25, 2018 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #1511053
What do you do when you discover that your shul uses Carlebach niggunim during Shabbos davening?April 25, 2018 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1511081
Be thankful they don’t use them during weekday davening.April 25, 2018 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1511115YerushalmitParticipant
Whatis the problem?
THere is no Issur here?April 25, 2018 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1511302zahavasdadParticipant
The problem is some of his behavior which was unacceptableApril 25, 2018 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1511581BisBoyParticipant
What do you do when someone “innocently” starts a topic that you know is intended to and will inevitably lead to lashon hara?
Hilchos Shmiras Halashon says: RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!April 25, 2018 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1511187meir GParticipant
we asked a senior godol who understands nigleh & nistar, who has big shimush from the previous door and understands shirah vezimrah for his hadrachah in our yeshivah , the rav said that now that r’ shlomo is in the olam haemes even those that had a kepeida to sing his nigunim bechayav would agree that, after petirosoh there is no inyan not too sing the nigunimApril 25, 2018 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #1511548The little I knowParticipant
If you live out of town, you just might be stuck with the neighborhood shul. As much as I disagree with your implication, you are entitled to your opinion and feelings. However, inasmuch as there is no issur, you need to decide whether you wish to daven there. To enter a shul, and then look to modify the patterns that have developed is problematic. Are you aware that Poskim discuss the choices of niggunim on Rosh Hashonoh and Yom Kippur? They are clear that changing a nigun is frowned upon, as something that has become ingrained in the tzibbur should be left alone. So, if you’re the newcomer, you are free to consider whether you wish to daven there or look elsewhere. If you’re out of town, that may be more difficult. Regardless, the other shuls might not be different.
As for R’ Shlomo’s behavior, no one can blame you for being repulsed by it. But his niggunim are not fraught with those behaviors or midos. Connecting the two may be your emotional reaction, but it is not halacha.
You can always choose to be a shaliach tzibbur, and you can then choose your niggunim.April 25, 2018 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #1511609
What do you do when someone “innocently” starts a topic
Avram in MD is a known troll. Be very careful with him.April 25, 2018 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1511615SnaggedParticipant
“What do you do when you discover that your shul uses Carlebach niggunim during Shabbos davening?”
SingApril 25, 2018 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1511610
even those that had a kepeida to sing his nigunim bechayav would agree that, after petirosoh there is no inyan not too sing the nigunim
Maybe they would if they agreed with him, but they don’t (at least not the places I know of).April 25, 2018 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #1511626zahavasdadParticipant
Some people feel by singings his Nigunim they are endorsing some of his other activities
I dont think people would approve of singing a niggum made by a rock starApril 25, 2018 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1511630The little I knowParticipant
Apples and oranges. We don’t even know who composed most niggunim. Singing them says nothing about the composer, and is certainly not an endorsement. It is related that the Viznitzer Rebbe from Monsey ZT”L once heard a nigun that he liked, and he asked that it be sung for him again several times. Someone approached the rebbe and whispered to him that this was composed by R’ Shlomo Carlebach. The Rebbe answered, “Nu, er lozt nisht?” (So, he doesn’t allow it?) And they were instructed to continue singing it. The problem with the nigun from the rock star is that it has no Yiddishe taam. It sounds like goyishe music, and that would be abominable, very inappropriate for a shul. You cannot make that comment about Carlebach nigunim.April 25, 2018 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #1511643
This whole meshugaas about not usoing a nigun from Reb Shlomo, Z’TL, or Lipa or from any yid whose hashkafah some may object to can be taken to extremes. As someone else noted, the majority of nigunim have no known source and could have been composed by big some big time apikores. The shtender in the beis medrash might have been assembled in Germany from European Beechwood (as many are). If a nigun helps a yid to feel closer to the Ebeshter, thats all that counts. We don’t adopt the ethics or values of the source of music we enjory hearing or books we enjoy reading. They stand independently for the emotions and feelings they bring out in each of us as individuls.April 25, 2018 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #1511642JosephParticipant
TLIK: If George Soros composed a beautiful niggun you’d be okay singing it at the Shabbos table?April 25, 2018 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1511647April 25, 2018 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #1511648April 25, 2018 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1511657limnos yameinuParticipant
There’s something missing in this thread.1- forget your shul, the entire Jewish nation uses his niggunim constantly .od yishama at weddings,harachaman on Succos, the list does not end. 2- anyone can feel the sincerity of his niggunim for a number of reasons a- he reached into his heart, and the situation at hand as in his uvnei yerushalayim composed in USSR Moscow. B- he never got rich from his niggunim often giving his profit to poor people at the hall,or simply doing it for free. The purity and selflessness of his niggunim are their greatest draw. 3- the bad stuff didn’t connect to his niggunim.If anything, the niggunim brought himself up from despair, possibly to teshuva.He was never ever to any degree involved in any type of heresy. Yes, there was difficulty with some of his actions, and although I’m not knowledgeable on the full subject, possibly great difficulty.None of that connected to his niggunim which clearly came from the neshama,was given free to the Jewish People and was accepted by all knowingly or not.April 26, 2018 7:33 am at 7:33 am #1511719klugeryidParticipant
Why not just ask your Shul to use more contemporary Jewish nigunim sung by all the current ”correct ” Jewish singers lifted right off of non Jewish rock stars singing explicit lyrics that would make your ears burn when the car next to you on the street is playing them.
Isn’t that much better?
Cause most people seem to have no issue with those.April 26, 2018 7:35 am at 7:35 am #1511730ZionGateParticipant
Brother Avram MD….
I have a similar dilemma….
What to do with wedding invitations nowadays?
Beyoncé fanfares for chosson/kallah entrances…
Heimishe melodies STOLEN by heimishe songwriters/singers from the rock world and… Voila…. morphing into
Seeeeman Tov and such… Oh, you know them all right…
Mmmmmm…. What to do? Should I attend..??
Keep the faith, bro..!!April 26, 2018 8:16 am at 8:16 am #1511733Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
OK, so who’s going to start the “Upon Discovering Your Shul Uses George Soros Niggunim” thread?April 26, 2018 10:57 am at 10:57 am #1511790
There seems to be an endless ability for segments of the frum tzibur to invest countless hours in searching out potential opportunities to create broigas with those who don’t share their hashkafah and promoting the “sinas chinam issue du jure’. How about self-mussar and waking up each morning and finding some new inyan of our own behavior we might consider changing as compared to waking up each day and starting a post about some issue in our lives that requires others to change.April 26, 2018 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1511885
There seems to be an endless ability for segments of the frum tzibur to invest countless hours in searching out potential opportunities to create broigas with those who don’t share their hashkafah and promoting the “sinas chinam issue du jure’. How about self-mussar and waking up each morning and finding some new inyan of our own behavior we might consider changing as compared to waking up each day and starting a post about some issue in our lives that requires others to change.
You first.April 26, 2018 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1511908
I did. And my first thought this morning was how I personally could provide better musar to our resident kvetchers whose mission is to raise questions about others.April 26, 2018 12:05 pm at 12:05 pm #1511970
So did I.April 26, 2018 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #1511994Reb EliezerParticipant
We have the concept to be mekadesh the nigunim as the kalever did, so it doesn’t matter who writes it but its substance. We use Yom Kippur a hungarian melody from the Gypsy Queen written by Kalman Imre a hungarian composer.April 26, 2018 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #1511985RBS_gimmelParticipant
The minhag in klal Yisroel is that his niggunim are acceptable, just not his derechApril 26, 2018 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1512125
I object – I did NOT wake up at 2pm.April 26, 2018 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1512121
What if I don’t have a good voice?April 27, 2018 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1512765ashkifardParticipant
Your asking what do you do, you continue what you have been doing till now, DAVEN!May 2, 2018 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #1514987cherrybimParticipant
“Some people feel by singings his Nigunim they are endorsing some of his other activities”
Using this logic, we would not be singing any nigunim.May 2, 2018 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1515016
I was at a Satmar wedding several months ago and the music was definitely a nigun adopted from Naomi Shemer’s Yerushalayim Shel Zahav…..I don’t recall any of the chassuveh rabbonim running out and shutting off the sound system although I couldn’t see from behind the curtainsMay 8, 2018 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1517926☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
Beyoncé fanfares for chosson/kallah entrances
That part is actually a sample from a 1971 song.February 3, 2019 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1673171
What if I don’t have a good voice?
That didn’t stop the guy sitting next to me this past Shabbos.February 5, 2019 9:02 am at 9:02 am #1674264knaidlachParticipant
a ניגון is called קולמוס הנפש, the pen of the soul. when composing a song the composer expresses his soul into the song. when singing a song you connect to the composer in a deep way. so its very כדאי to be careful who’s songs you are singing
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.