May 27, 2013 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #609447
I’m the new kid in the class, so I don’t want to be the one making trouble … but i was enjoying a thread when it was closed on me.
The contents of the OP – whether or not mistaken – was double,
a] shabbos shoes are not a necesity
b] people should not accept money for luxuries.
With the understanding that every indivual case is different, and that there is no room to critiize any indivual – i was in fact a little put off by the op’s reaction, – i am just interested in knowing what everyone out here in cyberspace thinks of these two points.May 27, 2013 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #955938popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I would be quite glad to give tzedaka so that a boy could have shabbos shoes.May 27, 2013 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #955939
PBO, in theory i agree with you, after all ?? ?????? ??? ???? ?? but i think practically there is a limited amount of ???? money going round, so perhaps it should be reserved for necesitties.
I was once asked to help out towards paying tickets for a yungerman in e”y to return to england for pesach, and i asked someone, and i was told to give him.May 27, 2013 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #955940
We are not continuing the mistake of the other thread.May 27, 2013 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #955941
Gefen, the bold is cool, how do you do it? Are you a mod?
Please explain your basic comment, i’m not sure if you approve of my thread or not.
what i meant was that even if the thread was really a mistake – which i am not all tat sure about – one can still discuss the idea of taking money to buy shabbos shoes, – or even tickets for pesach …
It was me. -95
You can discuss whatever you want, and this is a perfectly acceptable topic, but until someone verifies the other story (say, by being aware of something called a chessed voucher which you are given as tzedaka and use to buy shoes), let’s just pretend that other thread didn’t happen.May 27, 2013 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #955942
95 – I didn’t read the other thread (I get too hurt by some of the misinformed comments) but I personally distribute tzedakka vouchers used for various clothing. Or were you specifically asking about shoes?
(and btw, thanks for your hishtadlus)May 28, 2013 12:27 am at 12:27 am #955944WIYMember
Can u explain how these vouchers work? If someone pays for one that means that they got it from a Tzedakah organization because they are needy?May 28, 2013 12:56 am at 12:56 am #955945147Participant
Every Jewish child has a right to decent shoes to go to Shul on Shabbos, just as every Jewish child deserves a nice suit on Seder nite. Period!!
If a Jewish child is not dressed according to these standards, they qualify for Tzedokoh money to procure these. If possible:- The donor should take the child to the clothing store, thus assuring that the money doesn’t get utilized for some other use, if the donor is Makpid to help the child get proper attire for Shabbos/Yom Tov.
I have already taken adults to a store to procure clothing thus being sure the money went on clothing them properly and not then being diverted to another cause.
BTW I don’t know what id the difference between Shabbos & weekday shoes, as I wear slip on leather shoes 363 days a year.May 28, 2013 1:05 am at 1:05 am #955946commonsenseParticipant
95- I know for a fact there is at least one tzedaka that gives vouchers for shoe stores to get shoes both weekday and shabbos. I think you were mistaken that the original thread was a mistake. The op could have seen someone getting shoes for free with a voucher. someone else said possibly he was buying it with chesed dollars. I think you are mixing up the two, but both are possible.May 28, 2013 1:54 am at 1:54 am #955947
Zushy – as you see, I’m not the one who did the bold. I don’t know what was wrong with what I said.
95: Can you please tell me what was wrong with my comment? I truly have no idea!May 28, 2013 2:37 am at 2:37 am #955948
I believe the mistake on the other thread was zahavadad’s and was mistakenly closed.May 28, 2013 3:00 am at 3:00 am #955949Josh31Participant
I would like to see a comment from the Shoe Store Owner about how he or she would feel if the vouchers were diverted as described below:
It could be the family buying the shoes is fairly well off but bought the vouchers from the original recipients who had some bills to pay, such as the electric bill. I doubt the electric company accepts chessed vouchers. Hence, the original recipients of the vouchers may still be wearing second hand shoes come Shabbos. But at least they will have their lights on.May 28, 2013 3:35 am at 3:35 am #955950
WIY – We give vouchers to people in need to buy specific items from a specified price range at a store that has agreed to give us a discount. For example, a hat for $x at Yossel’s hat store. We don’t find that the store owners are always able to honor the voucher without being judgmental or annoyed, but we have reasons for who we give them to.
These are not the same as the school vouchers people purchase from their school office.May 28, 2013 3:38 am at 3:38 am #955951
Josh31, why the mental gymnastics? If a poor family was given vouchers to buy Shabbos shoes, let them buy Shabbos shoes.May 28, 2013 5:38 am at 5:38 am #955952Josh31Participant
My question is whether they are allowed to sell the vouchers to meet some more urgent need.
(If they want to buy shoes with the vouchers my question does not apply.)
That is why I want to know how the Shoe Store Owner will feel about it.May 28, 2013 6:27 am at 6:27 am #955953Shopping613 🌠Participant
Zushy you can do bold yourself…there are threads on that…just in my opinion its a big pain in the neckMay 28, 2013 6:53 am at 6:53 am #955954commonsenseParticipant
bold is pretty simple. you type (<)strong(>). then you type whatever you want in bold letters. then you end with (<)/strong(>). leave out the (). I only put them in because then the program would think it should bold the info and would not put in the instructions. If you are ending in bold letters you do not need the closing part.May 28, 2013 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #955955
Josh, I (mistakenly) thought you were implying that Shabbos shoes were a luxury and are not valid tzeddakah.May 28, 2013 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #955956
Zushy, do you know the background of the family who received the vouchers? Do you know their situation. Not everything is crystal clear. Maybe there is a sick sibling at home or other troubles that you can not even begin to imagine. Is it so terrible to you, that it may make these children happy to be like everyone else? And what defines luxury to you? If they were getting Ferragamo or Chanel, or any other insanely priced brands, then yes, you have a valid complaint, but to be somewhat upset over Basic Pair of Shabbos shoes? If they got shoes from Payless, would you feel better? I don’t know about you, but when I did buy from Payless for my children, they did not last, and in the long run it made financial sense to buy the better quality shoes, then 3 pairs of Payless shoes. because after a month or two, they were in tatters. Be grateful for what you have and please do not judge others, when you have no idea what maybe going on in their lives.May 28, 2013 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #955957gavra_at_workParticipant
You can discuss whatever you want, and this is a perfectly acceptable topic, but until someone verifies the other story (say, by being aware of something called a chessed voucher which you are given as tzedaka and use to buy shoes), let’s just pretend that other thread didn’t happen.
I believe the Davis Memorial Fund in the Five Towns follows this practice.May 28, 2013 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #955958
mazal77 – I don’t think those were zushy’s thoughts, I thinking he was bringing forth the comments of the posters on the other thread and inviting a discussion.May 28, 2013 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #955959
When goyim are poor, many times they shop at Thrift Stores, there are plenty of them and many times they have like new items.
Perhaps there are things we can learn from themMay 28, 2013 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #955960
Sorry Zushy, read the first original OP and didn’t not realize that Shoe store assistant had a little bit of hard time dealing and understanding. Please forgive me for not reading correctly and thank you Syag L’chochmah for pointing my mistake out.May 28, 2013 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #955961
There are chessed dollars sold by organizations such as yeshivos as a method of fundraising. There are organizations that give vouchers to people to procure the things they need, including food and clothing. In the case of the former, shopkeepers agree to accept these “chesed dollars” in place of the money printed by uncle sam as a means of giving back X percent to the organization who issued these “dollars”. The latter are vouchers distributed by organizations dedicated to helping people who can not otherwise purchase these basic items.May 28, 2013 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #955963Shoe store assistantMember
A mother came to the store and usd credit vouchers that the store gives to a local tzedoko organization to DISTRIBUTE not sell.
Syog, i’m really happy that you serve as a gabbaui tzeddoko, the merits are tremendous, and i really accept that every gabbai tzedooko has the discrepancy to choose the best way to allocate funds.
However, i still feel that the idea of the vouchers was for parents who cannot afford shoes, not for extras.
To my mind shabbos shoes are a luxury, no one heard of them until twenty years ago, and they are still not standard in england or eretz yisroel. there have been threads here about ti before, one was called shabbos shoes, and one was called my mother in law’s complaints. hatzlocho in finding them.May 28, 2013 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #955964Shopping613 🌠Participant
Y was like the 1st one closed?May 28, 2013 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #955965
Again, you are confusing the vouchers issues by your store with the “chessed dollars” people are talking about, not one and the same.
As for the vouchers your store donated to the local organization, obviously this organization feels they distributed the vouchers to those who need it/them. If you dont like how it is used, take it up with the organization that distributes them.
Let me ask you this question. If these children are wearing $12 payless shoes to school every day, should they wear those on shabbos as well?
Lastly, the mother who used these vouchers had to get them from a tzadaka, its enough she had to swallow her pride and approach someone for help, now you dont fargin her kids the shoes? For goodness sakes, get a grip.May 28, 2013 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #955966Light LadyMember
Shoe store assistant, my childhood was long before 20 years ago. My parents managed on chinuch salaries; our standard of living was quite simple, and we truly did not have luxuries. Some of our clothing was hand-me-downs, but we always had Shabbos shoes, the same way we had Shabbos clothing.May 28, 2013 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #955967
apushatayid – agreedMay 28, 2013 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #955968
Light Lady, no bearing on the main topic, but i grew up without separate shoes for shabbos, and so did my kids. they are definitely not yet stnadard over here.May 28, 2013 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #955969
When did it become acceptable to live a Trump Lifestyle on a Tzedkah Budget?
What is so terrible with payless or thrift store shoes?May 28, 2013 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #955970
Trump lifestyle? Buying shoes that aren’t from payless is a trump lifestyle? Those types of exaggerations just help shed a bad light on something that is not worthy of the criticism. I buy lots of different things at thrift stores but not shoes. And either way, why would getting my kids one pair of shabbos shoes in a year be so offensive to someone? People who can afford it have several, not just one, so rest assured, they are still living a life of deprivation even with those “real” shoes.May 28, 2013 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #955971
My parents didn’t bring us up on chinuch salaries, but it simply wasn’t something regularly done in london at the time to buy an extra pair of shpes fpr shabbos.May 28, 2013 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #955972
I think you missed the point, People have become such Baal Gaavahs.
If you tell someone to shop at the thrift store you are being “offensive”
Since when did it become acceptable for Kollel people to go on vacation
When did it become acceptable to Have Lavish Weddings that costs tens of thousands of dollars .
When did it become acceptable to shop at Woodbury Common (Fancy Outlet stores near Monsey and KIryat Joel)May 28, 2013 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #955973
Pleased you guys are getting the point.May 28, 2013 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #955974
95 – you still didn’t tell me why my comment was deleted.
On the first thread, somebody posted that these vouchers were not something given as tzedaka to people, which made the entire thread a mistake.
After a day or two, nobody had disputed that. So I assumed it was true. So I closed the thread.
This thread was opened for the purpose of discussing the hypothetical issue of whether it is appropriate to take tzedaka for shabbos shoes. Your comment went back to the vouchers, which seemed to be reigniting the mistake. So I deleted it. I’m sorry if this insulted you.
Since then, it has been claimed that perhaps these vouchers really are given as tzedaka. I have no idea what the case is.May 28, 2013 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #955975VogueMember
What is wrong with payless for shoes?
For me, I have flat feet and am required to wear custom made inserts in gym shoes, but have now gotten to the point where in the next six months I will need inserts in all flats and heels I wear, payless shoes do not offer my feet the right kind arch support, so I have to stick with brands like brooks, and new balance (I need to replace my nikes asap, I am not technically allowed to wear them), I can’t wear converse, and those are pretty cheap, no ballet flats, no used shoes, I am also a very big shoe size, and am of a very small minority, therefore, I can’t just get my shoes from a gemach. If I feel under the category of need, I would need a chessed voucher.May 28, 2013 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #955976
Vogue, no one debates that anyone is entitled to take money for necesities from tzedoko. The question here is taking money for things that some people obviously consider extras.
Think again, if you had a pair of shoes that you could wear, and then a chasuna ccame up, and you wanted a pair of expensive insole shoes that also looked good, would you take money from tzedoko for that?May 29, 2013 12:03 am at 12:03 am #955977
Maybe this will make it simplier
Should Tomche Shabbos deliver chicken thighs or Sushi?May 29, 2013 12:46 am at 12:46 am #955978WIYMember
I for one would be very pained to see a Jew shopping in a thrift shop. Thats where boys go to buy costumes for purim. You are hard pressed to find anything normal looking in a thrift shop.May 29, 2013 1:00 am at 1:00 am #955979
zahavasdad – I think you have a poor attitude toward these things. Whether or not something is a luxury is not up to you. If sushi is cheaper is that a problem too? Do you worry as much about non-kollel families who may have things you consider luxuries? I may not disagree on your point, but I most certainly disagree with your presentation and very much disagree with the idea that you feel confident that your personal opinion of luxury vs. necessity is valid.
I get the feeling (though it’s a guess) that you have things that you have worked for and you don’t like that someone else should have them for free. Perhaps some of what you have is considered superfluous in my eyes and I would find you shallow and materialistic if I visited. Would that even be an appropriate judgement for me to make or is it correct to say that different people and their circumstances will decide what is appropriate for tzedaka use and what isn’t.May 29, 2013 1:09 am at 1:09 am #955980
WIY – we have thrift shops in my neighborhood that are stocked with all the clothes the local gmach couldn’t make room for. There are lots of decent things there but I, too, would feel sad if that was the only option for someone or if that was where they had to go for Shabbos clothes.
Zdad – do you ever shop at thrift stores or is that something you just want “them” to do? Which, btw, nobody called “offensive”.May 29, 2013 1:15 am at 1:15 am #955981
If it brings a smile to a child, is it wrong? If it makes the child happy, is it wrong? If it brings one less thing for a parent to worry about, is it wrong? You are bringing simcha to someone’s life!! You are doing a Mitzvah!!! It’s all in your perspective and how you look at things. . And actually good well- made shoes ARE a necessity in life.
I once read (from a reputable, Torah-observant foot doctor in Israel) that there are 26 bones in the foot. 26 is gematria of HaShem – therefore there’s another good reason for shoes. We have to protect our foundation, which is not only physically our feet- but also the 26 bones which are representing HaShem who carries us everywhere we go.
The choice is yours, if you want to GLADLY help someone else out and be Hashem’s messenger, or not. Without judging them and without calling it a “trump lifestyle”May 29, 2013 1:17 am at 1:17 am #955982
I have stayed home this whole year with my child, BH what a Bracha it has been. That being says, this year was an absolute financial struggle and we were unable to splurge/purchase things that weren’t really necessities , at least for the most part. I have not gotten myself a new Shabbos outfit, top , bottom nothing since right before Rosh Hashana. I haven’t gotten myself new Shabbos shoes in over a year. My husband, who’s feet kill him from wearing his work/Shabbos shoes, has not gotten new shoes in over a year. BH we put food on the table, live comfortably on one salary for now, enjoy our life but rarely shop for anything g that’s not food, diapers or baby clothes. Is someone going to tell me that tzedeka should go towards new Shabbos shoes for me? If someone wanted to buy me shoes..how lovely!! But why? I unlike so many others, am not in need of tzedeka. BH I Am able to give tzedeka. When I do, I hope it’s going to things more important than An extra pair of shoes.May 29, 2013 2:42 am at 2:42 am #955983
“an absolute financial struggle” and “live comfortably on one salary” don’t match up. These people haven’t gotten new shoes or clothes in 5 – 10 years. When they buy a pair of shabbos shoes it is because the holes/tears/scuffs on their other shoes make them unwearable even for weekday but they want to feel like they can do something l’kovod shabbos. You imagine yourself buying an “extra” pair of shoes. That is not a fair transference.May 29, 2013 3:02 am at 3:02 am #955984
SL, you misunderstand. When I say live comfortably, I mean, healthy happy and not taking money from the government/tzedaka/our parents. We get by. I can’t afford to get new clothes that fit me, even though since giving birth I basically have nothing to wear so I wear the same couple of outfits. I have one nice Shabbos skirt that fits me, and that’s it. I don’t go hungry though, I have what to feed my family and iyH things will only improve from here. I also don’t believe that the people you all are talking about have not gotten a new pair of shoes in 10 years. First of all that makes no sense in regards to children, as they need at least one new pair a year because their feet grow constantly. 10 years in a egsageration that I don’t appreciate.May 29, 2013 3:14 am at 3:14 am #955985
I wasn’t exaggerating. I meant 10 years but I was referring to the parents.
I am thrilled that you were able to be home with your baby and wish you many more healthy years of it. I don’t think I will be able to give over the experiences I have and I get too emotional when people don’t understand how life really is for these people (my chisaron and I’m working on it) so let me just end off with a bracha that you never experience a year without shoes, clothes or extras for yourself or your kids, and may you always be on the giving end!!!May 29, 2013 3:21 am at 3:21 am #955986
Thank you syag. I am in no way trying to compare my life with those of the less fortunate. I am not destitute that so many others, I just live on a very tight budget, I k ow the difference. I was just trying to explain or say that when one is giving tzedeka, there are things such as food and undergarments that are more of a necessity than another pair of shoes. I didn’t see the original thread, maybe I am missing some information so ill end here. We should all be on the giving end always Please Gd.May 29, 2013 3:44 am at 3:44 am #955987Dr Uri BakayMember
Don’t you know what frum stands for?
F: food stamps
R: rent subsidies
M: MedicaidMay 29, 2013 3:55 am at 3:55 am #955988
“What is wrong with payless for shoes?
Nothing. What is wrong however, is that people are sitting and discussing how someone else should buy payless or second hand shoes from a thrift shop and dont fargin people a nice new pair of shoes. What is more appalling is that the subsidies for the shoes come from the owners of the shoe stores who participate in such programs and people STILL dont fargin others a pair of shoes. It is obvious you prefer the shoe store owner fund food and not shoes, however, it is not your place to tell shoe store owner how to give tzedaka.
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