Vaccination

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  • #619055

    simcha613
    Participant

    Why do some sects of Judaism have a problem with vaccinations? Is it because they don’t think it works for some reason or is there some theological problem with vaccinations? In other words, if it were proven that vaccinations were effective in preventing certain diseases, would all opposition fall away? Or would there be sects that still oppose it even while admitting their effectiveness?

    #1212632

    Joseph
    Participant

    What are “sects of Judaism”? The mussar movement? Modern Orthodoxy? Reform?

    #1212633

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Do you mean female vs make?

    Your question is based on a supposition that is a fantasy.

    #1212634

    catch yourself
    Participant

    I am unaware of any sectarian consistency on this issue.

    In any case, it has already been proven that vaccines are effective. How many people (who have been vaccinated) have you met recently with Smallpox? Polio? Measles? Mumps? Rubella? Should we go on down the whole list?

    The opposition to vaccines is not logical, and will not be deterred by such silly things as facts and proof.

    #1212635

    simcha613
    Participant

    Maybe sects was the wrong word. I have heard that there are Rabbonim who oppose vaccinations. The claim I have heard is that they don’t believe it works despite the scientific evidence that exists. My question is, Is there some sort of theological or religious reasons that prevent them from believing that vaccines are effective? If there was a way that it can be proven to their liking that vaccinations work, would they still oppose it for religious reasons?

    #1212637

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    There is a plethora of scientific evidence to prove that vaccinations are effective. They aren’t basing their decisions on science or logic.

    If your question is what I think it is asking, about proving theologically that vaccines work, they would need to believe that G-d wants them to protect their children with the vaccines. B”H before anyone gets I’ll chas v’shalom with an easily preventable disease.

    I think they would need to be open-minded about it. What does it take for a rabbi to change his view?

    More information? Conflicting data? Peer or mentoral support? Evidence that the prior thinking failed? A crisis? A wife’s opinion?

    It is odd that they are against vaccines when I hear a lot of how Torah can be like medicine to a person’s soul. Sometimes we need to suffer to get to a healthier and higher place. A closer relationship to Hashem.

    Maybe it is that they don’t want to put sickness into their bodies? Expose to that element?

    #1212638

    Joseph
    Participant

    No, those who oppose it don’t oppose it due to halacha or Judaism. They oppose it for non-religious reasons.

    #1212639

    simcha613
    Participant

    If there is no religious reasons, then why would a Rabbi with presumably no medical or scientific expertise oppose the medical opinions of the majority of doctors? Why would they side with the scientific equivalent of a shitas yachid?

    #1212640

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB – I think the issue is that they are concerned about potential side effects. There are people who think that it might cause autism. I think that most people say that there is no evidence to support that and that it’s all a ridiculous myth.

    I don’t know anything about vaccines, but I personally know someone who got messed up from the flu shot and then found out that approximately one person in (15,000? I’m not sure if that was the number) will get messed up from it.

    One in 15,000 might not sound that high, but it’s not insignificant, it happened to someone I know, and I’m not particularly concerned about dying from the flu, c”v. Very few people my age die from the flu, and it’s not clear that the flu shots help, so why would I go out of my way to put myself at risk of one problem in order to solve another problem that’s not even a problem? Maybe when I’m old, it will be worth it, but right now, I don’t think so.

    #1212641

    mw13
    Participant
    #1212642

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is a prominent anti-vaxer. He met with Trump a couple of weeks ago. Trump’s spokesman said they discussed vaccines. After the meeting, Kennedy said Trump had asked him to “chair a commission on vaccination safety and scientific integrity.” The Trump transition team later denied it. In any case, Trump has in the past tweeted anti-vaccine messages. Of course, if you look at Trump’s opinions over the years on many topics, they’re all over the map.

    #1212643

    huju
    Participant

    “Ignorant of science” is not a sect of anything.

    #1212644

    Joseph
    Participant

    Current science is often later overturned.

    #1212645

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Joseph, that’s true in some cases, but when was the last time you heard of someone contracting polio or smallpox?

    #1212646

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Infectious diseases can overturn you, in the grave.

    #1212647

    huju
    Participant

    I’ll give Joseph a hint in answering yehudayona’s question about the last time someone contracted polio: it continues to happen, in the backwards parts of the world where there are no vaccines available against polio.

    And as far as I know, polio vaccine and smallpox vaccine have reached Boro Park. Williamsburg is trickier – some of the hipsters there are vaccine-averse, but I am pretty sure Williamsburg residents can get vaccinated if they want to.

    #1212648

    benignuman
    Participant

    I don’t think there are any Rabbonim that oppose vaccinations. What I have seen are Rabbonim that hold that you are not required to vaccinate.

    My guess is that these are cases where the Rabbi in question is friends with an anti-vaxx doctor who tells him that vaccines aren’t necessary or cause autism or whatnot. The Rabbi then says to himself: if there are some doctors that say it is not medically necessary than I cannot say that it is required and schools should take in unvaccinated children.

    #1212649

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    One rabbi was quoted as saying vaccinations are a hoax. If he said that, then according to him, it should be assur to vaccinate, because it makes a chaburah and is to no medical benefit.

    #1212650

    benignuman
    Participant

    Daas,

    I have never seen that. Was he referring to a particular vaccine or all vaccines?

    I don’t see how anyone can deny that vaccines stopped polio and smallpox.

    #1212651

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Hopefully people will listen to their doctors and see that the great risks come from not vaccinating.

    #1212652

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB – why are you so sure that there are no other opinions on this? (I don’t know if there are or not. I am just wondering why you are so sure that there is only one valid point of view on the matter.)

    #1212653

    yichusdik
    Participant

    LU, becasue there is only one valid opinion on the matter. That one opinion just happens to be shared by virtually every pediatrician, GP, and vaccine researcher on the planet.

    But, lets say there is room for personal choice here. So would anyone here who is a parent or intends to be one, make the choice not to vaccinate their child, and then allow their child to use a park, a pool, a school, a library, a camp, a playground? Because if there is even one immunosuppressed or immunodeficient kid there who can’t get vaccinated even if they want to, because of their condition, that child’s life will be endangered. Threatened, by your choice.

    So, aside from all other issues, settled science, logic, statistics, or refusing to believe disproven and criminally prosecuted hoaxes, or the presumptions of a hollywood personality who wants to sell her books, Who is prepared to endanger someone else’s child? Who is prepared to take responsibility for a child’s death?

    Not me.

    A final thought. Many of us make the argument in the pro choice vs pro life debate that a potential life must be preserved, and that the rationale to end that potential life is in almost all cases false.

    If one is pro life, does it not make sense to preserve actual life kal vechomer even more so than potential life? Vaccinating does so. Your choice to vaccinate your child preserves the life of another as I indicated above.

    Choose life.

    #1212654

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “LU, becasue there is only one valid opinion on the matter. That one opinion just happens to be shared by virtually every pediatrician, GP, and vaccine researcher on the planet.”

    It could be. I acknowledge my ignorance on the topic (yes, LF, I have never had a problem acknowledging my ignorance in the many areas in which I am ignorant). I was just wondering why someone would be so sure that there might not be another valid opinion.

    Of cource, if someone has done some research on the matter (I don’t mean scientific research – just a reasonable amount of reading and/or speaking to experts), then it is possible to know that there is no other valid opinion. Maybe that was the case here – I was just wondering.

    It does happen that people make assumptions about things. In this case, there is another point of view, but it is possible that they have absolutely no valid arguments on their side. I don’t know – I never looked into it, so I was wondering if those who assume that is the case have in fact looked into it at all. That’s all.

    #1212655

    ShloimieB
    Participant

    I think it is based on the concerns some parents have regarding any autism risk involved. While many say that the vaccine has been proven safe it would be more acurate to state that there is no clear connection between autism and the vaccine and some studies show little correlation. There is no absolute proof that there is no connection.

    Maybe it is time to have a Kennedy in charge of people with the right knowlege and credentials look into this. The powers that be till now included Fauci, a quack that made millions selling his own superfluous vaccine and was chairman of the vaccine commision in the USA. His vaccine was not recalled when it wasfound to have live virus contamination.

    Vaccines are made with live virus and anything can happen in any batch that might affect those that use that batch only.

    It should also be noted that often these vaccines are sold in multi dose bottles and the bottle gets old and possibly contaminated. By comparison, flu vaccines and dental anesthetics are single dose in most cases. This shows that the cost is not prohibitive for single doses but some pediatricians are more concerned with cost than risks.

    #1212656

    Matan1
    Participant

    The proof is that no connection has been found.

    #1212657

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    I did research and study it in university. I also had to weigh it out for myself as a dog parent too.

    When you are responsible for someone else’s life, it can be terrifying to make a decision when you read that one in millions may be hurt by this vaccine. Yet we don’t the other factors or those fluke cases. I realized that doing nothing was exposing my dog to present dangers.

    A couple months ago I got a flu vaccine at my PCP. The last time I got the vaccine, it was thermisol-free (mercury-free) and paid for by my university. This time it was only covered at my doctor’s office and they only had the vaccine with thermisol, which is a preservative.

    I asked her if she would take the vaccine if she was in my position. She said that she already did. Same one. “Really!?” “Yes I have a baby boy at home,” she explained. And he is going to get vaccinated? “Of course.”

    Herd immunity. Look it up. It’s true that the people who don’t vaccine by choice put the lives of those who cannot vaccinate, because either their infants are not old enough or children have other health issues at the time, in danger.

    #1212658

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Thanks for the info, Shloimie. If we are talking about flu vaccines as well, I know they can be dangerous because I know someone who was messed up from it.

    #1212660

    lesschumras
    Participant

    LU , why do you make generalizations based upon one person’s experience. You wouldn’t generalize based on abad experience with one Rav, would you? Of all vaccines, flu is probably the least effective as it may end up not matching the actual flu strain

    #1212661

    bk613
    Participant

    I think it is based on the concerns some parents have regarding any autism risk involved. While many say that the vaccine has been proven safe it would be more acurate to state that there is no clear connection between autism and the vaccine and some studies show little correlation. There is no absolute proof that there is no connection.

    There is also no proof that learning gemorah doesn’t cause heart attaks. What’s your point. The Dr. Who made the autism claim was a quack with serious conflicts of interest in the case. His claim is just as outrageous as the one I just made.

    #1212662

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    lesschumrahs – I wasn’t generalizing just based on her experience. She told me that she looked into it and found out that a certain percentage of people taking it will be harmed by it.

    Additionally, I was taking into account that as you pointed out, the flu vaccine may not be that effective to begin with. I was also taking into account the fact that dying from the flu is not that common in my age group, ba”h, so I don’t think the potential benefits weighs highly enough against the risks (plus the time, energy and maybe money needed to get the vaccine), at least for me.

    “Of all vaccines, flu is probably the least effective as it may end up not matching the actual flu strain”

    I was only talking about flu vaccines, nothing else. But now that you mention it, wouldn’t it be likely that if there can bad effects from one type of vaccine, the same thing is likely to be true of other vaccines?

    And in order to be worthwhile, it’s not really enough for the benefits to outweigh the risks – they have to outweigh them a lot. Let’s say the risk of dying of chicken pox c”v is as great as the risk of dying from the chicken pox vaccine or is even a drop more likely. It wouldn’t make sense to take the chicken pox vaccine since in the first case, you are not the one actively doing anything and in the second case, you are actively putting yourself at risk of something.

    Note: I am not saying that there are any risks involved in taking the chicken pox vaccine. As I stated previously, I know nothing about it. It is quite possible that there are no known risks at all or that they are minimal compared to the benefits.

    #1212663

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    bk613: “There is also no proof that learning gemorah doesn’t cause heart attaks.”

    I don’t think that’s an accurate comparison. Maybe there is an increased risk of heart attacks if someone learns Gemara. But it doesn’t matter, because we have a chiyuv to learn Gemara whether or not it is physically healthy to do so. (I’m not talking about a case where it is known that someone will drop dead the second he starts learning).

    On the other hand, the whole purpose of vaccinations is to help one’s physical health. It is an act of hishtadlus and one has to make sure it is reasonable hishtadlus. The benefits are only possibilities and the risks are only possibilities. One has to weigh the likelihood of each against each other. And if nothing has been proven one way or another, I would think that it might make sense to assume that there could be some potential risks involved in any medical procedure.

    Again, I am not saying one should or shouldn’t have vaccinations. I am simply discussing the logic of the arguments being used.

    #1212664

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think you misunderstood bk613’s (correct) point.

    (S)he is saying that it’s silly to assume or even be chosheish for a correlation between autism and vaccines when there is no proof. The analogy to learning gemara has nothing to do with it being a mitzvah, just that it would be silly to think it causes heart attacks just because there’s no evidence to the contrary. If you don’t like that analogy, we can use many more. For example, I think we should stop posting on the CR because it has never been definitively proven that posting on the CR doesn’t cause severe hair loss. (Although, anecdotal evidence has shown that it can cause people to lose their heads…)

    #1212665

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    We should stop wearing blue because it hasn’t been confirmed that wearing blue makes you fall down steps, chas v’shalom.

    #1212666

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    We shouldn’t use nail clippers to trim our nails because once when someone used nail clippers, she broke her arm after tripping over the sofa.

    #1212667

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    LB, stop while you still have your hair.

    #1212668

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    DY, don’t risk your hair to save me.

    The CR can’t touch me.

    I’m a direct descendant of Yosef ha Tzaddik.

    #1212669

    bk613
    Participant

    Thanks Daas Yochid

    #1212670

    lesschumras
    Participant

    LB, I don’t know how old you are but if you had any idea what life was like prior to vaccinations, your concerns of possible issue would disappear. I grew up in the 1950s and there was actual, not possible, terror of contracting polio. Every year tens of thousands of children came down with it, with survivors often crippled for life. Who can forget the images of kids being kept alive by an iron lung. When volunteers were sought in Pittsburgh ( where the vaccine was developed ) to test the new Salk vaccine, parents were so desperate that the lines ran for several blocks. Today, polio has been eradicated due to vaccination. Measles and smallpox were also killers

    #1212671

    ShloimieB
    Participant

    Reply to BK613 and others;

    The issue with the MMR and the autism concern is that there seems to be some correlation in timing and otherwise between autism onset and the 18 month dose of the MMR vaccine. It could be nothing but it needs study.

    I can’t guaranty much in life but if anybody really read up on this and Wakefields research they would be left with questions.

    I can tell you that the establishment is set up so that anybody that wants to do research in this direction never gets funding. I do not know the answers but don’t be so smug abd assume you know it all because you read that vaccines never cause harm.

    I was employed at a Long Term care institution and they mandated getting a second, updated flu vaccine a few years ago. I reported to the DNS that I would not be doing so. His reply was that he would enforce the rule after he got the second flu vaccine. I asked when that would be and he said NEVER, he would not risk his health.

    #1212672

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “It could be nothing but it needs study.”

    and it has been studied over and over and over

    see here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/things-causing-autism-jokes#post-561919

    “I can’t guaranty much in life but if anybody really read up on this and Wakefields research they would be left with questions”

    questions are good! as k away. But sometimes answers are good too.

    “I can tell you that the establishment is set up so that anybody that wants to do research in this direction never gets funding.”

    Hogwash. Have you ever heard of Wakefield? (I believe you have) his study was published in one of the most prestigious journals. Of course the study, like the man himself, turned out to be fraudulent.

    your earlier thread has a few errors as well:

    “While many say that the vaccine has been proven safe it would be more acurate to state that there is no clear connection between autism and the vaccine and some studies show little correlation. There is no absolute proof that there is no connection.”

    Should read:

    “While many say that the vaccine has been proven safe it would be more acurate to state that there is no established connection between autism and the vaccine and all studies show no correlation (except one study exposed as a fraud). There is no absolute proof that there is no connection.”

    #1212673

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    LC: I am pro-vaccination. Must be a mistaken identity.

    #1212674

    bk613
    Participant

    I can’t guaranty much in life but if anybody really read up on this and Wakefields research they would be left with questions.

    #1212675

    lesschumras
    Participant

    I meant LU. Sorry we’d about that

    #1212676

    ShloimieB
    Participant

    reply to ubiquitin,

    As far as Wakefield, start with hi data and go from there. The biggest issue was that he did not get proper permission from his subjects. The fact that his data

    Nobody that leans in the direction of studying vaccine risks gets funding. That is the fact. What are your qualifications? have you taken any advanced, post college level courses in any related field?

    The hatchet job on Wakefield was very similar to the political tricks exposed during the election.

    Reply to BK613.

    If you do the follow the money route do it both ways. Start with Anthony Fauci, leader of the fight for vaccines and;

    see why his vaccine was used even allowing contaminated batches.

    see why an alternate vaccine was barred while contaminated.

    Please continue and add up all the research being done on fields like AIDS and compare it to autism. Autism involves great costs to society and Taxpayers, why not solve it just like we did for AIDS? I am sure research went every direction for AIDS but certain avenues are barred in autism research.

    PS: if you do not have an advanced science degree stop regurgitating things you have read elsewhere. If you do have an advanced degree please read and consider the above.

    #1212677

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LC – As I already stated more than once, I have no opinion or concern on the topic of vaccinations (other than flu vaccinations. I don’t really have a definite opinion on flu vaccinations either, but for me personally, it’s just not something that makes sense for me at the moment).

    I know nothing about the topic and I have no reason or interest in looking into it.

    #1212678

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    The main link between autism and MMR/mercury was the timing- that autism symptoms show up around the same time as the vaccine is given. But current research has shown differences in the brain and behavior of autistic babies, such as verbalization and visual contact, way before the age of MMR vaccine, from 6 months and even as young as 3-4 months. Hard to blame something for causing autism when autism is present before that something.

    For those who want scientific data supporting the above statement, a quick look at Medline will provide such studies. I can “regurgitate” this since I have an advanced science degree.

    For example, (quoted from a review by Sperdin and Schaer, Front Neurosci. 2016 10:393) “Recent functional neuroimaging and electroencephalography studies demonstrate that aberrant voice processing could be a promising marker to identify ASD very early on. With the advent of refined brain imaging methods, coupled with the possibility of screening infants and toddlers, predictive brain function biomarkers are actively being examined and are starting to emerge.”

    “In sum, a large body of clinical studies to date point to expressive and receptive language deficits already in the first year of life for young children who will subsequently develop ASD during toddlerhood, suggesting that the neural systems responsible for orienting to and processing human vocalizations are altered very early on.”

    “Wolff and collegues observed abnormalities in white matter fiber tracts in infants at risk (at 6 months) and who were diagnosed at 24 months (Wolff et al., 2012). In a recent study of infants at high-risk for ASD and diagnosed at 24 months, white matter connectivity abnormalities were present specifically over Broca’s area in the frontal lobes, and more generally in the temporal, parietal, occipital lobes as compared to both low-and high-risk infants not classified as ASD (Lewis et al., 2014).”

    There’s more for anyone interested in the actual review and its citations.

    #1212679

    twisted
    Participant

    Vaccinations are mandated. Why is that?

    The drug companies producing them are indemnified. Why is that?

    I generally accept science, but one must do due diligence in following the money. If all studies in favor(if any) are funded or conducted by the drug companies, gov’t agencies or any of their agents, what validity does it have? Western medicine and big pharma have acted as a top down mafia for a long time. You are lucky to find a doctor who will think out of the box of his/her education, and if too public about not following the party line, the effects can be brutal.

    There is also questions on herd immunity, as the efficacy of vaccination does not necessarily extend into adulthood. Of course an adult should have a much stronger immune system compared to a infants and toddlers, but how many immunodeficient adults are walking among us, without the protection vaccine from 30-40 year ago. If there is an open minded scientific opinion out there how about an agenda free opinion?

    #1212680

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ShloimeB

    “The biggest issue was that he did not get proper permission from his subjects”

    no that is the smallest issue.

    The biggest issue was that Wakefield falsified facts

    Other big issues were flaws in the study design, which only had an n of 12 and the design was uncontrolled.

    More minor issues are the one you mentioned and the fact that he had financial interests that he failed to disclose

    “Nobody that leans in the direction of studying vaccine risks gets funding. “

    You dont know what you are talking about. You start with a null hypothesis ie no link between vaccine and autism and then you determine if the data supoorts or rejects the nulll hypothesis. Im not sure where the “leaning of the researcher” comes into play. Even Wakefeild didint claim go looking for a risk. If a legitimate study comes along proving vaccines are harmful journals would fight over it. However over and over studies show the same thing. It is amazing they still get published.

    ” What are your qualifications? “

    I read English, see “The fraud behind the MMR scare” published in BMJ

    what are yours?

    “have you taken any advanced, post college level courses in any related field?”

    yes

    #1212681

    bk613
    Participant

    I’ll be honest I tried to read about this scandal but I couldn’t find any mention of it from a quick Google search. (Not saying at all that it does t exist rather that I didn’t read about it)

    In any event, you dont think that getting funding from laywers who want to sue vaccine makers casts serious doubts on the validity of his data?

    #1212683

    adocs
    Participant

    ShloimieB

    In what field is your advanced science degree?

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