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My relative told me this for years and I always laughed it off and considered her a health fanatic. She feeds her kids only health foods such as organic chicken, and also her milk is unpasturized. Of course fruits and vegetables are part of their diets. This I have no problem with. She also makes sure to give them certain vitamins to boost their matabolism and health etc. Beautiful. However, she does not give her kids any shots nor vaccinations, for any machlah out there, claiming that it is sooo unhealthy and puts drugs and unnatural stuff into our systems which causes harmful side effects and maybe even long-term harm. She doesn’t take her kids to a pedatrician for anything. I honestly thought she was crazy and that she bordered on child-abuse…..
Then I read up on vaccinations. Holy Cow, what I found!?! I don’t know if it is tied but shortly after my son’s vaccination, he developed symptoms of autism though in a mild way, yet it was there. We don’t know if we should stop vaccinating right away or not. Doctors will obviously say to vaccinate, but if you read up on the history, recent rampant sicknesses, and the amounts of vaccines that are given to our children….R”L!!!
It is a Money-seeking scam, for the most part, and our children are nebach the korbonos. Or is it?? Who do I beleive??
Please share with me your thoughts, facts and opinions on vaccinations?
The studies that have linked vaccinations to autism have been proven to be frauds. Not only that, but those who do not innoculate their children, and allow diseases that could be eradicated to survive, can probably be considered rodfim. The eintire humanity will suffer when these diseases make a comeback in the children that are not protected.
I say this with all due respect to gedolim like Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky and family who are extremely anti vaccination, and into all kinds of natural health products. Yes, I know its hard to argue with the relative health that many in that family enjoy even at advanced ages, tavo aleihem bracha, I think that may be a special zechus that Hashem gives them. Plus R’ Yaakov’s genes surely don’t hurt either!
I know a family that was recently meshadech with an einikel of Rav Shmuel. Rebbetzin Kamenetsky told the mechutenes, “We’re so happy to be associated with your family!” At first they got all excited about such a warm approval from such a distinguished rebbetzin. Rebbetzin K then said, “I’m really happy that you don’t do vaccinations.”
Even so, that entire philosophy has recently been proven to be based on fraudlent research.
“It is a Money-seeking scam, for the most part, and our children are nebach the korbonos. Or is it?? Who do I beleive??”
why dont you ask the parents who lost a child/children due to the lack of vaccinations from another child? Every medication, vaccine, procedure, etc…has its risks.
But with vaccines, the pros outweight the cons.
First of all 90% of what you read on the internet is wrong, some of it is mis-informed some of it is out right lies. There has not been a single scientific paper ever to show any link between autism and vaccinations.
However in almost every case where vaccination rates drop if the virus or bacteria is still in the environment outbreaks happen!
If you think that vaccinations are a scam aimed at hurting children ask yourself this question… how many children do you know who have been killed recently by Measles, Mumps, Polio, Whooping cough, Diphtheria or Smallpox? For most people reading this that number will be 0, if we had been somehow having this conversation in 1911 and not 2011 It would have been MUCH higher.
My father is a micro-biologist and he recommends anyone who works in public health should take a walk threw a grave yard from the 19th century to see all the graves of children and know exactly why public health is such an important field of work.
(My grandfather had Diptheria in his youth, he missed a year of school because of it, thankfully he survived and lived to be 99 years old)
Last year there was a measles outbreak that started with Israeli charedim who didn’t believe in vaccinations
Anyone who does not vaccinate her child is endangering him and all the other children he comes into contact with. When the health nuts stop vaccinating their kids, the rates of serious infection go up — every time.
Please, for the sake of your children, have them vaccinated!
Just a few notes, There are two basic types of vaccines, some use a live form of the virus others use one that is dead. There have been a few cases of a live virus vaccine getting someone sick but they are very rare, one in a few million.
That being said not all vaccines are 100% effective. So it is possible in some cases if you have been vaccinated to still get sick. In this case what we count on is called herd immunity. Which is a fancy way of saying if everyone is vaccinated then the virus won’t have a chance to spread very far because the few people who can get sick can’t spread it.
BaalHabooze, please be very careful where you get your information on this issue, there are people out there who are trying to give you bad information for whatever reason they have. They do not have your best interest at heart.
The CDC has a good web page on this: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/
I think people need to start talking to survivors of the pre-vaccination days to get a real perspective. In most years, one or two of our classmates did not pass to the next grade (I don’t mean because they failed any tests).
Baal Habooze- Lay off the booze for a while! 🙂
The measles outbreak started with those that were not vaccinated.
The doctor that came out with the so called link between the MMR and autism Andrew Wakefield, was found to have had multiple undeclared conflicts of interest, had manipulated evidence, and had broken other ethical codes. The research was declared a total fraud and the doctor lost his license to practice medicine.
The benefits of the vaccines far outway and anecdotal evidence to a link to any disease.
Vaccines are bad.
There are known health risks. It does not take a huge leap of logic to imagine there may be unknown health risks.
popa,
Not vaccinating is bad. There are known health risks, such as permanent handicap and death. The known risks are so bad that no one even needs to consider unknown risks. The unvaccinated are only as safe as they are because the other 95% of the population is vaccinated and the diseases are harder to catch.
One of the reasons that parents with autistic children claim that vaccinations cause autism is because their children started to show symptoms of autism after vaccination. The problem with this reasoning is that typically these symptoms start to show between 18 and 24 months regardless if a child was given vaccinations or not. That is just the age that autism usually hits. We all know that toddlers get a lot of vaccinations so because of the timing parents now have something to blame for their terrible misfortune. One minute they had a healthy baby and then all these symptoms. But in many cases – that is just the way the autism progresses. Like a poster said before – study after study has shown that there is no link. Also want to point out that there is no evidence that the measles outbreak a few years back was due to parent not vaccinating. In fact – all of the cases that I heard of were in boys who had the vaccine.
The only vaccine that I would not give is the HPV vaccine targetted to young girls as that vaccine is for sexually transmitted diseases. Mothers have to be aware because I know of many doctors who are trying to push this vaccine and we B”H do not have to give that to our daughters. So while all vaccines have risks and in most cases the benefits outweigh the risks – in this case – there is no need to expose our daughters to these risks.
Does ‘Chayecho Koidem’ not apply here? Why should I pump potentially harmful drugs into MY childs system to maybe save YOUR child. Bori v’shemo Bori Odif. We know the vaccines are full of poisons, but there is no surety that you will contract the disease it is supposed to prevent. It is all about MONEY MONEY MONEY.
from the first post … “She doesn’t take her kid to the pediatriciaon for anything.” Rachmono litzlan!
We once had a neighbor who would not give her children pain killers (they would come to our house for pain medication when they had toothaches and the like). That was child abuse.
What you are describing is reckless endangerment.
“First of all 90% of what you read on the internet is wrong, some of it is mis-informed some of it is out right lies. There has not been a single scientific paper ever to show any link between autism and vaccinations.”
So people stop saying google it”” cause it doesn’t answer everything!!!
The unvaccinated are only as safe as they are because the other 95% of the population is vaccinated and the diseases are harder to catch.
True. But once you idiots are vaccinating, why should I subject myself to the unknown risks.
Since you can’t post links, do a Google search for:
“paul offit wired” and read the Wired article. Paul Offit developed a vaccine and is an expert in the field. He stated (and this was used against him as a sound bite) that the body can handle 10,000 vaccines at once.
In 99.99% of cases, vaccines will do no harm.
BTW, the Tifferes Yisrael called Jenner one of the Chassidei Umos Ha’olam for his smallpox inoculation. People who don’t vaccinate are not only ruining it for their kids, but they are ruining it for other children as well due to the herd.
the person who wrote the article about a link between vaccination and autism is no longer a doctor, his credentials were revoked.
Also, just a reminder that correlation does not equal causation.
Tragedy of the commons?
R’ Shmuel’s daughter takes her kids over to anyone when she hears someone has chicken pox so they can get it an be immunized.
I don’t understand. Vacinating benefits other people rather than the person who vacinates? (i.e. The person himself derives no *direct* benefit?)
The question is not how long a person has been looking for facts, or in how many places they have seen or heard their facts, but whether the facts are true. There are many, many, stubborn, semi-literate, know-it-alls, who have “all” the answers, and who did “all” the research. If a person’s doctor g-d forbid tells them that they have cancer and chemo is their only hope, (hopefully) they would listen. The same Doctor knows nothing when it comes to vaccines. There’s no money in chemo? Or no idiots espousing opinions about things they don’t understand… How many double-blind controlled studies have they read about proving their point? How many proving the other way? The overwhelming scientific research shows that each vaccine is not only better for society, but better for each individual who takes it. Otherwise they don’t get approved! Nothing other than g-d is perfect, but would you prefer the opinion based on observable and objective facts, in studies administered by bright trained people who have spent their whole lives working on that and similar issues? Or would you prefer what your neighbor’s mother-in-law’s cousin heard from the best doctor in Tibet’s son’s fiance?
by not vacinating ur kids u become liers and cheaters! u can not have ur child in any school public or private without having their shots up to date and if they dont have them most schools will not accept them (board of health does come down and look thru the health forms) so these parents who dont want to give there kids shots dont wana home school there kids so they pay the highest price and “get” those forms filled out so its ok to lie and trick people cuz u believe in something so strongly and by doing so putting others in danger???
and by doing so putting others in danger???
You aren’t putting anyone else in danger.
OP do you know why the children of your relative are gezunt? You don’t have to be a Rocket Scientist to figure this one. The mother opting for Natural Remedies(Supplements/Herbs/Diet) may be helping her children have a healthier Immune System. Actually Hashem is the one who determines how Physically Healthy we are on Rosh Hashanah. All Hashem wants us to do is to try to guard our Health and he will help us if we try. This is one of the reasons people Vaccinate for the Flu, having a weakened Immune System coughing, sneezing, sore throat… Vaccines have Mercury and other nasty things in them. If Mercury is so healthy then why are Pregnant Women told to avoid eating fish caught in the Oceans of the World that are Mercury Dumping Grounds as well as other Toxic Chemicals. Would anyone seriously want to to eat food containing Mercury? Then why is ok to be inoculated with a Vaccine with Mercury and other Toxic Ingredients. The Rambam was a Master Herbalist who healed using plants, roots and Hashems Blessing. We are honored to have special Gedolim such as R. Shmuel and his wife Rebbetzin Kamenetsky who are open minded about using natural methods to heal their family. Perhaps we should ask the Kamentskys and find out why they as a family are open to Natural Healing.
ZachKessin -You sound very informed. Did you get all this from your dad or are you in the medical field?
I used to get into the arguments here about vaccines, but now I’ve decided to sit this one out. I wonder if it’s the same people just using different screen names or are there quite a few health-nuts out there? I’ve found that the tatics they use are similar to missionaries. They are always looking to con another one. Trying to influence them with the truth is a waste of time, they are too self-absorbed with their own views! Like I once saw a Lubav getting into it with Jews for J in the subway station. They are so brainwashed for this -he was the one who ended up being flustered.
golden mom -Unfortunately our liberal gov. allows exceptions to the rules. That’s how they get them into school without the vaccinations! I think they claim a religious exemption. They get some Health-Nut Rabbi to sign it’s against their religion.
That old saw about the vaccinations and autism has not been shown to have real legs. the danger to a child of dying from whooping cough (a particularly nasty and painful suffering death) is far more real than a supposed autism link. Moreover, kids who are not vaccinated have been the cause of certain childhood diseases making the rounds in this country again, where they had been almost 100% eradicated. People took their kids overseas, where there might be fewer vaccinations, the kids picked up the diseases and brought them back here.
Measles encephalitis is a real danger, birth defects may be caused by the exposure of pregnant women to Rubella in their first trimester, when their own acquired immunity may have been weakened. Mumps which are transmitted to adolescent boys can result in sterility. Are these not enough reasons to vaccinate? What about hepatitis? And btw, IT’S THE LAW. Children are not supposed to be allowed in school without showing their immunizations being up to date. With all due respect to the rov mentioned, that type of action can cause tragedy for someone else.
I don’t know why it bothers you if some other nut doesn’t vaccinate her kids.
It doesn’t put your kids in any danger, because your kids do have the vaccine.
And her kids are unlikely to get sick, since your kids have the vaccine.
What about hepatitis?
A perfect example of how unnecessary vaccines are forced upon as.
Hepatitis A is not common enough in America to need it.
Hepatitis B is not common among our community, for good reason.
Do not allow those butchers to give your kid the hepatitis vaccine. You can get the Hep A when you go to Israel.
Are parents no longer allowed free choice? Are we no longer within our legal rights to make personal decisions for our own children? Or maybe we should be mindless zombies all doing exactly the same things in all areas of life. Are there never children who should be exempted from the rules for personal/medical reasons the parents may not want to share? Has anyone considered the advent of clean water and lack of open sewage as a way that there was increased disease control. In any case, most people will never consider the alternative honestly. Most will continue to do what they want anyways.
popa that is exactly the point why do some posters feel that not being Vaccinated will pose a health risk if the same people have been Immunized. You and your family members were given shots so everyone in you family are protected, so how can the members in your family become ill from being exposed to a population that was not?
PBA – If enough people don’t vaccinate it affects the herd immunity. I explained this in detail in previous posts about outbreaks. In simple terms they don’t make the vaccines 100% effective because that would make them much more expensive. What they do is make them about 80 -90% effective (or less) and the rest of the percentage they rely on the herd immunity. So if s/o who isn’t vaccinated gets the disease, they can start an outbreak even amongst the vaccinated group. This has happened in a camp in the mountains recently a couple of years ago. A Frum Bocher went to England -over there he was exposed to either measles or mumps and came back to camp and started an epidemic. He came down with the disease even though he was vaccinated, but I think the person he contracted it from – wasn’t!
PBA – If enough people don’t vaccinate it affects the herd immunity.
Don’t you mean the herd mentality?
PBA – You mean the type of mentality that Health-Nuts have?
If someone has a good Immune System why would they necessarily get sick or RL. a disease. Or do I need to get as shot to protect my Immune System from contracting the Sickness or Disease. I feel to understand this kind of logic. Op if your relatives children are healthy happy specimens and enjoying Hashems Blessing for good health,do family members need to be immunized to protect themselves from a population that has shot protection? I don’t understand the logic behind this.
PBA -“Hepatitis A is not common enough in America to need it.
Hepatitis B is not common among our community, for good reason.”
Acc. to the CDC there were 2,000 cases of Hep A in 2009. About half were hospitalized and 10 died. It might not be common, but there’s a chance you can bump into one these people, esp. in our community where we have a lot of Israeli tourists. Why risk your life even if the disease isn’t common, when there is an easy way to prevent it?
As far as Hep B, Frum people sometimes need transfusions. Even though they have gotten much better at screening blood, they can’t guarantee it 100%. Why not get a shot and never have to worry about this devastating disease?
PBA – what don’t you get? it has been proven to be better, not only for the “herd” but for the individual. The few, if any, possible remote adverse effects from select immunizations, are significantly less severe and/or less likely to happen, then what could happen w/o the vaccine. This is proven, tested, fact. What tests did you run? Doctors would otherwise be under oath not to administer vaccines, as the first and primary part of the Hippocratic oath is to do no harm. That means, a Doctor is NOT ALLOWED to do ANYTHING not in the interest of the INDIVIDUAL patient. The ends would not justify the means. What that means, is when the AMA and/or FDA approve a vaccine, it must be proven to have an overall positive effect. The proof criteria is rigid and objective. The results must be repeated. WHERE’S YOUR RESEARCH? On what basis do you refute the accepted researched fact? As to free will and choice for parents, yes you have free will to willfully neglect your children on the basis of your feelings, but, barring a religious need, which need not be medically explained, and which according to Judaism this isn’t, society may have a responsibility to your children’s well-being which precludes your right to stupidities. If, for example, a mother decides, that she knows, that not giving her infant anything to eat or drink every other day, is beneficial to her infants health, would you not feel the responsibility to give the poor kid some food? The fact that food is good, is not up for discussion, unless you have some pretty good evidence to the contrary. Until you do, not giving your child food every day, is child abuse. Similarly, not giving your child a readily available vaccine, when there is unrefuted and undeniable evidence that it is significantly good for your child, is child abuse. If a parent chooses to exercise their free choice in a way that abuses their child, with no justifiable rationale, at the very least they must be stopped.
There are a variety of immunisation vaccinations out there. Amongst the most crucial is the one for Measles Mumps and Rubella. If a woman is not protected by a Rubella vaccination it may mean during pregnancy she is at great risk of catching German measles (rubella) Tragically rubella can in extreme cases lead to blindness and deafness in newborns. I write as the wife of a paediatrician of many years experience. In the UK chicken pox is not vaccinated against and many young mothers actively try to get their kids in contact with it when they are young. However certain illnesses such as Measles, Rubella as well as Hepatitis etc all have vaccinations available worldwide for good reason. Currently in the UK many of the babies and infants being treated are the children of refugees from the third world who could not be vaccinated .Moderation is the key in life, it is very dangerous to say if you do not vaccinate you child you are not affecting others. Tell that to the young mothers in charedi schools whose children in Israel have suffered from the measles outbreak in recent years, those children were left with serious disabilities.
I’m pro vaccinations for serious illnesses – measles, polio, [smallpox], etc.
However, mass vaccinations at a young age for everything including an ingrown toenail is ridiculous.
I’m convinced that the reason for vaccinations for all the relatively minor illnesses is financial, not medical. Sitting out childhood diseases naturally, with 2-3 weeks per child, staggered, would mean too many lost work days for working mothers.
(My personal opinion. I’m prepared to be convinced otherwise.)
Unlike most other patented products, the market for mandated childhood vaccines is created by the recommendation of an appointed body, ACIP. From 1998 to 2003, Offit served as a member of ACIP.
If the FDA & CDC were around 600 years ago we would all
still be getting vaccinated against the Plague and they would be saying to look at what an effective vaccine program we have here.
Vaccine rates go up and certain disease rates go down. However, the disease rates were declining dramatically before the vaccine programs started. I have seen many pro-vaccine articles discussing the measles death rate in 1900 and how wonderful vaccines are because of the tremendous drop in measles death. Only it left out the fact that the measles vaccine was not developed until the mid 40’s and the dead rate had already declined 97% by time the measles vaccine was invented!
Vaccine rates go up and some diseases go down. However, asthma,
allergies, juvenile diabetes, juvenile leukemia, autism, ADD, ADHD
all go up.
The following is just a part of an article from a few years ago. There is much more to be said.
Unvaccinated Children Have Less Asthma – In an article entitled “The Dark Side of Immunizations?” Science News reviews new reports by researchers that show that vaccinated children have a higher
incidence of asthma and diabetes than do unvaccinated children.
Science News reports that a study by researchers at the Wellington
School of Medicine in New Zealand found that unvaccinated New Zealand children report fewer cases of asthma than vaccinated children.
Another study by New Zealand researchers published in the November
1997 Epidemiology analyzed the health of 1,265 people born in 1977. Of these, 23 didn’t get any childhood vaccinations and none of them suffered childhood asthma. Among the 1,242 who got polio and DPT shots, more than 23 percent later had episodes of asthma.
Science News adds that a 1994 survey of 446 British children, most of them eight years old, showed that 91 received no vaccinations in early childhood. Only one child out of 91 had asthma. About 11
percent of the other 355 children who had been vaccinated had asthma.
Health, yes, my son was one of those kids who got the mumps even though he was vaccinated, also my daughter and even myself. I have had 2 daughters get chicken pox even though they were vaccinated. I will say, though, that the cases which they had were very minor, not the extremely painful, itchy, bed-ridden illnesses that one used to develop when one was sick with things like chicken pox, mumps, diptheria, measles, etc, and not to speak of the horrors of polio. Who would want their child to risk paralysis and lifelong disability just to avoid such a vaccine?
I am one of the kids whose mother used to take me around to all my friends when she heard they were sick with chicken pox. Back in those days there was no chicken pox vaccine (late 60s-70s), so everyone had to just get sick. I never ended up getting sick, so we always thought I just hadn’t had it. It wasn’t until I was 26 that I developed some kind of illness that had blister-like sores on my body, but it was a very mild case and nothing could be determined from a sample of the liquid in one of the blisters, so we still never knew if I had the chicken pox. Now when I was pregnant with my first, I was exposed to a child who had the chicken pox. I wasn’t worried for myself, but I was in my 9th month and developing chicken pox at that stage is dangerous for the newborn. She would only be protected if I had immunity myself. I had to go for a blood test to see if I had the antibodies in my blood, which I fortunately did, but I would have had to get a gamma glubulin shot within 4 days of the exposure or else it wouldn’t be effective if I wasn’t already immune.
Also, it’s not fair to say that people with children who are vaccinated won’t be affected because, being that the vaccines are only 80-90% effective, then if the child did in fact become even mildly sick, they would be contagious and they would not be able to go to daycare, school, etc, meaning the parent would have to take time off work, possibly lose wages/job, etc, plus the child would suffer unnecessarily.
I have a nephew who got polio from the polio vaccine. The whole extended family still vaccinate our children. It is far too risky not to.
Please make sure the children are well enough for their vaccinations. ALSO: always check that the vaccination is in date.
When I went to vaccinate one of my kids I asked to see the date. The doctor assured me he had just received the batch. The whole stock the doctor had received that day was out of date…..
Great advice about checking dates on vaccines and also being aware of what is necessary and what is a money making exercise, but when life threatening illnesses faces our children, then vaccine is a much needed option, smallpox and TB are not soft touches!
Giving one’s children vaccinations seriously undermines the livlihood of doctors and hospitals. In the old days, family doctors got lots of parnassah from polio and measles. Even a round of mumps could pay their tuition bills. And diseases such as smallpox and typhus were a boon for hospitals. With greater demand, they could keep their rates down.
Indeed, some have suggested the vaccinations have led to the overcrowding, especially in schools. Where will they find room for the many children who were naturally culled before starting school – they take up classroom space now. Arguably, global warming is caused by more and more carbon producing little brats failing to expire in childhood and making the planet overcrowded.
And while we are on the subject, should we discuss the damages done by antibiotics….
Ok. There are a lot of really good points here. I just have to make a correction. Aposhitermaidel…it is not always so that signs of autism do not show up until 18-24 months. I have been a teacher for many years, more specifically have worked with countless children with autism, and i can tell you that some children begin to show signs well before the age of 18 months. I work in a pre-school pre-k facility, but i do work with state organizations on evaluating younger children, to see if they are ready for pre-school. Although there is no anecdotal evidence to prove that vaccinations > autism, there ARE studies in PROGRESS that suggest that those who become autistic are BORN with it, but that since these vaccines are a BIG shock to the sytem, which any MD will agree to, that this shock brings upon the autism sooner then it would have come out on its own. There are only what some studies suggest, i found it very interesting, as i have been trying to research this topic on my own for the past 5 years.
Either way..vaccines are good, they protect our families, our children, our futures. The pros far out way the cons.
1 method of vaccinating that many people i know do, is spread them out over 9 months. Instead of getting the MMR very close together, ask your doctor if you can do one every 3 months.
Maybe I am not worried about MY kids getting sick. Maybe I am concerned about OTHER people’s babies who are too young to themselves be vaccinated against MMR, getting sick from those children whose parents refuse to vaccinate them (for baseless reasons), so that we have seen a return of those childhood diseases. Do you really think it is not probable that an infant could contract measles from a toddler whose parents refused to vaccinate and was unknowingly exposed to that child?
People who give in to this hysteria about autism, which has NOT been proved at ALL, are endangering other people. And it is the law. Thank G-d we have eradicated smallpox. I would liek to see ALL those dieases competely gone. And it cannot happen when a few frightened people act foolishly based on non-proven theories. There might eb a million reasons why there is a rise in autism. Or maybe it was always there and we misdiagnosed it for decades.
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