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Be Happy, so sorry to hear about your nephew contracting polio from the virus. I know that over here in EY, they used to give the live polio vaccine orally – OPV as well as IPV, the inactive version. We were told to wash our hands well for 2 days after the vaccine after changing the child’s diaper. Then several years ago someone contracted polio from contacting the dirty diapers of a child who had received the vaccine but not within 2 days, more like 6 weeks prior to the contact. At that point it was decided (don’t know if this international or just local to EY) to only give the IPV vaccine. I don’t think you can get polio from that form since it is inactive.
Popa,
“Hepatitis B is not common among our community, for good reason.”
Sorry, but I just had a patient the other day who was positive for Hep B. What if I had not been vaccinated and had been exposed? I live in a typical frum community. Easy to pass it around.
Hep B can be spread many ways. People in the frum world work every day with non-Jewish people. People have contact with their car mechanic, gas station attendant etc etc. So to say that frum people are never exposed to these diseases is highly inaccurate.
nurse:
You are confusing the Hepatitises. Hep B cannot be spread through casual contact. You will not get it from the mechanic, gas station attendant, ect.
You will get it from needle sharing and other things.
PBA: Or if someone sneezes or has a cut. Why risk an epidemic? Especially because there are times of year like Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur where everyone crowds into shuls.
PBA: Or if someone sneezes or has a cut.
Not quite.
Health: Now look which side is ignorant of basic medical facts.
PBA: From Wikipedia.
HBV can be transmitted between family members within households, possibly by contact of nonintact skin or mucous membrane with secretions or saliva containing HBV. However, at least 30% of reported hepatitis B among adults cannot be associated with an identifiable risk factor.
It might be less common without sharing needles or blood transfusions, but it can happen.
Popa
Hep B is usually spread through blood or intimate contact but can be spread in the following ways as well:
Direct contact with infected or contaminated blood, even in tiny amounts too small to see
Sharing personal items, such as toothbrushes, razors, syringes, or glucose monitors that have even microscopic amounts of blood on them
Direct contact with open sores of an infected person
An infected mother passing it to her baby at birth
(from the cdc.gov)
The point is that diseases can be spread without you being aware of having definite blood contact with an infected person. To say that living in the frum world does not expose you to any diseases is incorrect.
As an example, if I, or any other healthcare professional, were not careful (and there are many healthcare professionals in the frum world), and would not be vaccinated, we can be a great transmitter of disease. Don’t think you live in a box and can avoid all vaccinations b/c the disease isn’t around.
Don’t misunderstand me, Popa, I’m not saying it’s likely one will be exposed to Hep B; it’s the attitude to vaccinations in general that I don’t understand (unless you were being sarcastic before).
Oh, I thought Hep B needed real blood to blood contact. I guess medical professionals out to get it.
I still don’t think regular Americans should be getting the Hep A or B vaccine. I have the Hep A because I traveled, but have not gotten the Hep B, and do not intend to.
I generally think we are being overvaccinated, and too quickly. There is absolutely no reason any vaccine needs to be given in the delivery room.
There are risks to vaccines. People die from them all the time. There are risks to crossing the street also. But, the medical community has placed a taboo on discussing the risks of vaccines.
I think the reaction of many people is just a backlash to the medical community completely ignoring all the risks, and making fun of anyone who is concerned for them.
As far as autism goes, there is no research that shows a link. I am aware of that. I doubt there is any link.
I agree that one should be well informed about vaccinations, but not to disregard giving them completely. There are some vaccines (like the varicella [chicken pox] vaccine) that I don’t see the real necessity for. However, and I could be wrong here, I think it is required for entry in most schools.
Some people choose to use an alternate vaccination schedule for kids where one can space the vaccinations given to their children if they’re concerned about giving so many at once, though not everyone in the medical field agrees with it.
Yes there are risks to vaccines, just like there is to everything in life, but the vaccine is the MUCH safer option.
Herd immunity works only if a very large percentage of the community is vaccinated. Once enough parents start refusing vaccines for their kids, the herd immunity is gone. Some people medically cannot receive vaccines, such as those who have received organ transplants (their bodies cannot fight the live weakened vaccine), or those with allergies to parts of the vaccine, and I think we should save that small percentage of non vaccinated individuals to those people.
“HPV vaccine targeted to young girls” and “dark side of vaccines”
This rings some bells, like maybe the darkest side of vaccines. The following is from internet conspiracy theory territory, starring Big Pharma Big Money, Big Elitism, and supporting characters like Monsanto and its ilk. If true, truly horrible, if untrue, a good read. Al regel achas:
a)there are large players intent on population reduction
b)the easiest target is the third world
c)Large NGO pushing a vaccine for unlikely illness on the population of young females.
d)Local church interests grow suspicious, do own lab work and find a gestational hormone spliced to a virus, net result is vaccinated subject rendered unable to complete a pregnancy.
If you surf freely, search Eugenic+Bill Gates
I stand by my opinion, Popa. Children should be vaccinated to protect those who are too young to be vaccinated, but are at risk of contagion (new baby brother or sister), or whose immune systems are compromised. My children may have all been vaccinated, but if other people’s have not been, they can spread diseases that were nearly completely eradicated. Thank G-d smallpox is no longer an issue thanks to the vaccinations of my generation. Have you ever seen a child in the death throes of whooping cough? It is heartbreaking. Worse yet, it is totally preventable.
And as people often travel to Israel with their families, Hep A and B shots are a necessity, not a luxury. Not immunizing is selfish, not cautious. And it is required by law in order to attend school. there is no demonstrable correlation between immunizations and autism in children, which could be attributed to a whole mess of other causative factors.
Vaccines are truly proof of the mercy and kindness of our Creator. To refuse them outright is an insult to Him.
If you doubt me, you are probably too young to remember the pain, suffering and anxiety caused by polio. Ask your grandmothers about Polio.
The first symptoms of polio are the same as a cold, so parents would worry at every sniffle that their child would end up paralyzed or dead. Parents would keep their children inside through most of the summer (the contagious season), and children would get sick and die.
In each epidemic, tens of thousands of children (and some adults) would sicken and die, or become paralyzed for the rest of their life. Their entire household would be quarantined and the family could not go to the dead child’s funeral.
The heartbreak caused by this one disease was vast.
This disease was so horrible that the efforts of Drs. Salk and Sabin and thousands of others created a vaccine that was truly a miracle, comparable to any of the great miracles of the past.
Miracles should not be ignored or scoffed at, just because they are recent.
dear akuperma – I adored your satiric entry.
In the very late 1950’s and early 1960’s when the polio vaccines first became widely available, parents would take their children to mass vaccinations at high schools, parks, community centers, etc., to get the vaccination (by hypodermic syringe at first, later by the much-preferred sugar cube.) At that time, with the memories fresh from the 1952 polio epidemic, no mother was debating the wisdom of having a child immunized.
Thank you ron, for making the same point as me but doing a better job. I guess repudiating a miracle is easy if you dont understand that its a miracle.
but I am SO skeptical with the AMOUNT of MANDATORY vaccines that are distributed these days, and their POTENTIAL side effects. “
Unfortunately the benefits outweigh the risks, and that is why they are mandatory. For every child who has a bad reaction, countless more have their lives saved from disease.
Well-said, ronrsr.
The Nurse- PBA says “Health: Now look which side is ignorant of basic medical facts.”
After the next comment I’m starting to agree with him:
“There are some vaccines (like the varicella [chicken pox] vaccine) that I don’t see the real necessity for.”
Didn’t you ever learn in school about Varicella complications?
Edited
PBA -“Oh, I thought Hep B needed real blood to blood contact. I guess medical professionals out to get it.
I still don’t think regular Americans should be getting the Hep A or B vaccine.”
Oh and regular Americans don’t ever get transfusions. I already posted that they can’t guarantee the blood supply is a 100% safe, mostly, not 100%!
“I have the Hep A because I traveled, but have not gotten the Hep B, and do not intend to.”
Oh and only in EY do people contract Hep A – noone in the US ever gets it, so there is no chance of coming down with it!
“I generally think we are being overvaccinated, and too quickly. There is absolutely no reason any vaccine needs to be given in the delivery room. There are risks to vaccines.”
The reason medical professionals try to bundle them, even if this maybe isn’t the very best way is because of the patient’s attitude. You try getting pts. to come in for shots when they are supposed to. People come in months later and say they were busy or forgot or a myriad of excuses. Sometimes they come in so late you have to start the series again. Bundling them is the easiest way to get as much compliance as possible!
“People die from them all the time.”
This statement is very far from the truth! While people have died from vaccines, this occurence is very uncommon! It’s much more likely a person will die from the disease that the vaccine is protecting against!
Health: You must know the numbers.
What percentage of people suffer severe side effects from the Hepatitis B vaccine?
What percentage of people who are not vaccinated, in the US, and do not engage in risk factors, get Hep B from blood transfusions?
I know it is uncommon to die from vaccines. But it happens all the time. There are 300m people in this country.
Health,
Feel free to agree with whomever you wish to.
Nurse – Was the anti-chicken pox vaccine your idea or did you get it from s/o else?
Health:
What are the numbers for chicken pox?
What percentage of the population who does not have the vaccine has severe problems from chicken pox?
What percentage of the people who get the vaccine have severe reactions to it?
Until we answer those questions, isn’t this all just speculation?
PBA -“What percentage of people suffer severe side effects from the Hepatitis B vaccine?
What percentage of people who are not vaccinated, in the US, and do not engage in risk factors, get Hep B from blood transfusions?”
I did the research -I doubt I’ll answer these type of questions again. The only reason I did it this time is because lots of people will listen to you and not vaccinate. I’m trying to counter that.
The CDC says about 1 in a million suffer from a severe side effect from the Hep B shot, usually an allergic reaction.
The Red Cross says the following, which they got from two sources:
“The risk of hepatitis B infection through blood transfusion is between 1 in 200,000 and 1 in 500,000.”
You do the math!
Ok, perfect.
And what percentage of the population gets a blood transfusion?
If it is half, then we have the same percentage.
as said time and again here, the pros far outwiehg the cons.
PBA – I knew you were going to say that. But the truth is noone knows if and when they will need a transfusion. So why take the chance of getting Hep B because of a 1 in a million chance of having an allergic reaction? If you’re that concerned make sure your doc has meds on hand to deal with this. Also, you can get Hep B in other ways. If s/o with Hep B bleeds on a public area and they just wipe it down with a tissue, no disinfectant. And then comes along s/o else who has let’s say cracked fingers because of the cold and touches the same area a week later, that person can get infected.
I have no problem with s/o who is informed & decides not to get Hep B Vac., as opposed to most of the other childhood disease shots. The key is as long as they are informed and not based on info that some anon. poster decided is the best thing to do!
I also might be anon., but it isn’t my statistics that I’m posting!
Sorry, a 1 in 200,000 chance (if you ever even get a transfusion) is not even worth the 75 bucks a vaccine costs.
PBA – Well thank you for your opinion. I now know that money is much more important than your health. But most of us don’t even want a 1 in a million chance to come down with such a devastating disease, esp. since there is a very easy way to prevent it!
Do you really think 1 case of hepatitis is worth $75,000,000 to prevent?
Or even $15,000,000?
Suppose there was a cure for hepatitis that cost 15,000,000 per dose. Would you say it should be covered by health insurance? Would you pay for it out of pocket if you had the money?
money vs health is a very significant basis for making medical decisions. ever hear of cost:benefit ratios?
and if youll say well personal decisions are different, still cost vs probability is a very significant factor.
would you pay $150 to be guaranteed never to get zygomycosis?
how about $1000?
$10?
PBA -Don’t confuse the issue. Most people who get Hep B aren’t getting it from transfusions. I was just talking about Frum Jews.
I am also just talking about frum jews. I never said other people shouldn’t get the Hep B vaccine.
Mod-80 and PBA –
To inform you Hep B is a major health concern, not only in the US, but all over the world. The cost benefit ratio to vaccinate very much outweighs any reason not to; considering the cost of the disease itself!
I was just talking about Frum Jews
i know, wasnt that the whole point of your discussion with pba? not sure what your last post has to do with this. we in the medical profession like to keep issues unrelated to the one presently under consideration, in abeyance. otherwise the uninformed will tend to become confused.
Mod -80 – What I’m simply saying is that they decided to have vaccines for Hep B because in general it’s cost effective. Whether if the whole world was Frum Jews and then maybe it wouldn’t be. But right now that there is a vaccine, why shouldn’t Frum Jews take advantage, even if they don’t have insurance and have to pay a few bucks, for that peace of mind?!?!
@health: i wish i knew who you were! i have a friend who always brinds up this argument about how she will not vaccinate her kids whatsoever and she has a whole list of excuses and me, being that i’m not so educated in this area, i dont have such good responses! maybe i should just print out this whole discussion… or maybe i should just let her have her opinion and i have mine…
miritchka -You can ask the mods to give you my email. I give permission to give it to you.
I apparently still haven’t been vaccinated for troll.
Do you really think 1 case of troll is worth $75,000,000 to prevent?
Or even $15,000,000?
Suppose there was a cure for troll that cost 15,000,000 per dose. Would you say it should be covered by health insurance? Would you pay for it out of pocket if you had the money?
Yes, I would.
127 I’m not sure if our budget could cover that
Suppose there was a cure for troll that cost 15,000,000 per dose. Would you say it should be covered by health insurance? Would you pay for it out of pocket if you had the money?
yes but then he’d have to scrimp on the coffee
Not saying she’ll ever actually TRY to get the money…
Not trying to make light of a serious topic (but judging from the last few posts, that has already been done…), however, when I saw this thread on the home page, I saw: Vacations are bad?. Oops, my bad!
SiDi™
Vaccinations are very bad for parnassah, especially of doctors, nurses and the hevrah kadisha.
The hevrah kadisha will get their business from you one way or the other. The choice is soon, or when you’re 120. I’m not sure that’s a valid argument, since you will increase the future parnassah of the CK even if you get vaccinated.
As always, I love your sense of humor.
Our Creator has given us means by which human suffering can be decreased, that is an act of love. Refusing that gift of diminished suffering may be an insult to the Giver.
The only reason to be skeptical of a vaccine is if it is for a disease you are highly unlikely to get (which is why they no longer offer smallpox vaccines, which used to be standard), which is probably the case, for example, of a frum person and a vaccine for a sexually transmitted disease. But that’s a rare situation, as most of the vaccines are for diseases that would otherwise be common (polio, measles, etc.).
modified
Vaccinations have nothing to do with autism. This is a lie that lacks any scientific basis.
We don’t know what causes autism, although genetics, socialization (or lack thereof), age of the parents, etc. all play a role.
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