Very interesting KashaŚMakas Choshech

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  • #608781

    WE all know that 4/5 of Klal Yisroel were nifter during makas choshech. 600,000 men bet 20 and 60 went out, another 600,000 women bet 20 and 60 and say 300,000 men and women over 60 gets you 1.5 million people over 20 that went out of mitzrayim. Since Hashem doesn’t punish people under 20 (see rashi Korach perek 16 pasuk 27) i’m leaving them out of the chesbon.

    1.5 x 4 = 6,000,000 people nifter during makas choshech. Hmmmmmm. Regardless of what the numbers are how can we celebrate Yitzyas Mitzrayim if 80 percent of klal Yisroel were nifter. It seems a tragedy to me that millions died at this time. How come there is no mention of this in the hagadah? Also does anyone have a good pshat in ” If hashem did’t take us out of Mitzrayim us, our children… would be mishubad to pharoh…”

    #942177
    Sam2
    Participant

    Rav Schachter mentions that “we would still be slaves” means that we wouldn’t have the Torah. We probably wouldn’t still physically be slaves. Most countries have gotten rid of slaves and history is full of slave revolts. But we wouldn’t have the Torah and “no one is called free unless they learn Torah”.

    #942178
    TheMusicMan
    Participant

    But why did those 6,000,000 die? Because they were resha’im!

    Misas resha’im tov lahem v’tov la’olam!

    #942179
    twisted
    Participant

    Or a Maharilian concept. That galus is an unnatural state, and therefor it must have a cause. Until the cause is removed (correction of midah) the unnatural will persist.

    #942180
    SaysMe
    Member

    pshat- even though slavery has been abolished, and it’s more than probable we’d have been freed earlier, we’d have been indebted in a small sense to Paroah/Mitzrayim for freeing us.

    #942181
    charliehall
    Participant

    Perhaps there is a non-literal meaning to the midrash?

    #942182
    Abba bar Aristotle
    Participant

    Mivaksheyemes

    The Netziv answers both of your questions:

    1. In Avodim Hoyinu: the words “biyod chazoko” refers to the fact that the 4/5 did not want to go out – so Hashem had to kill them so that he could take “Binai Yisrael” out.

    2. It is only our acceptance of Avodas Hashem that created a Hashgocho Peratis for Bnai Yisrael – which resulted in Hashem interfering with the history of nations for our benefit. All of the occurances in history which resulted in the freeing of slaves, was a result of this “hashgocho peratis” which resulted from yetziyas mitzrayim. If this had not happened, then we would still have been slaves.

    #942183
    cherryrends
    Member

    Rav Yakov Kamenitzky zt”l says that 4/5 means after generations and generations that could have been born, but were not because the parents died in Mitzrayim. 4/5 does not mean literally that 4/5 died. Its brought down in the Emes Lyakov . If you want to know exatly where, let me know.

    #942185
    gotbeer
    Participant

    By rasha of the 4 sons it says “Ilu Hoyah Sham Lo Hoyah Nigal”. This is were its talking about that the Jews died in Egypt….

    #942187

    Thank you everybody for your answers!

    TheMusicMan- The entire klal yisroel was on the 49th level of Tumah making everyone rishaim. I think this is problematic to what “twisted” wrote as well.

    SaysMe-Does it make sense that if someone throws you into prison that your indebted to them in anyway when they free you? You’d say “why did you throw me into prison in the first place!?!”

    Abba bar Aristotle- 1)The Netziv answers why hashem killed them but we need to understand why in the world so many people didn’t want to be freed from slavery. It also doesn’t answer why 80 percent of klal yisreol being killed isn’t a huge tragedy.

    2)Answers the question very nicely but it’s really hard to understand how the tevah could have been different beforehand. If you have a good explanation i’d love to hear it!

    cherryends- Answers that question fully and i will iy”h check it up.

    #942188
    SaysMe
    Member

    i learned this, not my own idea, i just don’t remember the source. It’s not the literal sense of indebted, but the Jewish concept of when someone ddoes you a favor, even small, you owe hakaras hatov+.

    #942189
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    We would never have been a unique nation. By today, we wouldn’t be slaves anymore, perhaps, but we would have been freed only to fully join the Egyption people.

    #942190
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Also, we rose above the Egyptians. When others were freed it was gradual and the complex remained. Had we been freed in some other way, the slavery would remain as a stain. It would be an embarrasing part of our history.

    edited

    #942191
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    As to the 4/5 issue, this is from a Medrash on one word that has other translations as well. We also have no idea what the situation was at the time. With so little insight, we can’t answer much definitively nor ask. But from the fact that those that went out were in 49 levels of Tuma and were Ovdei Avoda Zara, just imagine what the rest were like. They were very likely completely void of any Bnei Israel identity.

    #942192
    interjection
    Participant

    So if your non-frum aunt and uncle died because they were secular you think it’s a reason to celebrate? There has to be a more satisfying answer than that.

    #942193
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Who ever said it was aunt and uncle? It could have been whole families and sub tribes. My point is that we have no idea what went on.

    #942194
    Wisey
    Participant

    While you are at it you might as well ask on the other pshatim in that midrash that 49/50ths or 499/500ths died. But it could be that they were at the 50th level of tumah which is the level which is considerd to have absolutely no chance of doing tshuvah. Otherwise it is very hard to understand how they did not want to leave mitzrayim. They must have been so entrenched in Egyptian culture that they preffered to remain as slaves than to leave. This is a much lower level than non-frum people nowadays. This may have give them the status of not being part of klal yisroel in which case their death is not a reason for mourn, similar to the halachah that there is no aveilus on an apikorus.

    #942195
    Abba bar Aristotle
    Participant

    Mivaksheyemes “1)The Netziv answers why hashem killed them but we need to understand why in the world so many people didn’t want to be freed from slavery. It also doesn’t answer why 80 percent of klal yisreol being killed isn’t a huge tragedy.”

    The Netziv writes that the 4/5 who didn’t want to go out – did not do Avodas Perach. They had nice jobs and nice homes and just had to pay taxes to Pharaoh. This is why they wanted to stay.

    #942196

    We learn that the pple that died during makas choshech didnt believe in hashem anyomore and they had given up hope of every leaving mitzrayim free. The 20% that believed in hashem survived.

    #942197
    avner
    Participant

    the jews that were taken out because they did not change their names, language, clothes

    this means that

    they were called sam and sarah

    wore a star of david

    and said shlepp and mazal tov

    essentially they identified with being jewish

    for someone to leave on a dangerous journey into the desert, and to stand up against his slave mentality requires a hidden strength which may have only come from their identification with klal yisrael

    #942198
    interjection
    Participant

    Maybe it’s the real reason we say chatzi hallel most of pesach. Because As happy as we are that we left

    We still lost most of our people.

    #942199
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I’m not so sure we call them our people. Now we are one, but the way we are is different than anyone else in the world, and is not natural. Do Muslims condemn the killing of Muslims? Do Christians mourn the death of their co-religionists?

    Are people really personally affected by a stranger’s tragedy? I don’t think so. There are surely feelings of sympathy and “our hearts and prayers are with them” while we munch pop-corn and click on the next news item.

    This is magnified when the people we are talking about are oppressed. When someone is being overworked, under-rested, beaten and over-stressed, he has very little time in his hands and room in his heart to feel for others.

    #942200
    Abba bar Aristotle
    Participant

    HaLeiVi

    I saw a Rishon who says that before Kabolas Hatorah, the world was all one people.

    The act of Kabolas HaTorah by Bnai Yisrael, combined by the refusal of the Amim to be mekabel the Torah, divided us into two different peoples.

    In this context, the Netziv writes that part of the refusal of the 4/5 to go out, was a rejection of the Torah.

    #942201

    The Netziv is against those miforshim that say only Shevet Levi didn’t work. It also is kineged hasvarah to say that none of the 4/5 wanted to leave their homes. Besides, all this happened before Matan Torah – before their was the concept of aveiros. You can’t say that the 4/5 were worse than all the other nations that rejected Hashem and the Torah yet they weren’t killed!

    #942202
    Abba bar Aristotle
    Participant

    Mivaksheyemes The Netziv is against those miforshim that say only Shevet Levi didn’t work.

    Why do you say that? The Netziv says that Shevet Levi didn’t work. I am not aware of anyone who argues with that chazal.

    It also is kineged hasvarah to say that none of the 4/5 wanted to leave their homes.

    Which “svara” are you referring to? It seems pretty logical to me that people who have good jobs, nice homes, and are assimilated into a society to the extent of doing their avoda zara and not doing bris mila, would want to stay in their “kushy” position.

    Besides, all this happened before Matan Torah – before their was the concept of aveiros.

    There were many avairos before Matan Torah. Why do you think that there were none?

    You can’t say that the 4/5 were worse than all the other nations that rejected Hashem and the Torah yet they weren’t killed!

    I didn’t say it. The great Gadol BaTorah – who only said things that he had aboslute proofs to from the Torah and from chazal – the Great Netziv said this – because he had absolute proofs to it. Perhaps spend a few thousand hours studying his pairush on the Haggadah with all of his proofs before you criticize his writings?

    #942203
    anon1m0us
    Participant

    We were not a nation until Matan Torah. Prior to that, we were tribes so if some tribes died, they were considered separate than us. Even after Mattan Torah,when we became a nation, people still held to the notion that you could only marry within your tribe. Cross marrying is unheard of! So as long as 4/5th were not part of my tribe, people did not care. In addition, not everyone worked. Shevet Levi was a complete tribe that did not work, but other tribes individual people had a good life. They went to the theaters of the goyim, and they moved out of Goshen and settled among the goyim.

    Plegesh Bigeva, the whole tribe of Binyamin was almost wiped out but we do not have anything special. Even the Jews at that time did not care if Shevet Benyamin would be exterminated until it was brought to their attention that Klal Yisroel needs 12 tribes.

    So by 4/5th dying, I do not see it a big deal among the survivors. It is not like today where we intermarry among various shevatim. Back them, you kept to your own.

    A bigger question would be, the meforishim state that they died during this makka so not to make a chillul hashem. Imagine if the whole state of Israel, about 6 million people, just disappeared, wouldn’t that also be a chilul hashem? Who and where did they bury 6 million people in 3 days?

    #942204
    nem621
    Member

    i think phsat is that since they were all rashaim it is not such a tragedy and the reason why this are rashaim and not the others is because the others were somehow on a little higher madrega. the only problem i see is, i believe, there is a medrash that says that we don’t say all of hallel on the 7th day because the mitzrim (who were also H’ creations) died at the sea. it could be (have not heard it from anyone and im a 10th grader so im not reliable) that this is the reason why we don’t say a bracha for hallel on the seder.

    #942205

    Abba bar Aristotle I never criticize only seek to understand. That being said we still need to try to answer these questions. Those mifrshim say that ONLY shevet levi didn’t work as opposed to 4/5 of klal yisroel. I also believe that it is illogical to think that all the other yidden felt perfectly safe while their brothers are cruelly enslaved. Whose to say they won’t be next? Yet when Moshe comes offering freedom NO ONE from this group takes him up on it? It’s comparable to Mashiach coming and people not wanting to leave their homes in America to go to Israel. Some will and some won’t.

    There were many avairos before Matan Torah. Why do you think that there were none?

    Before Matan Torah there was only the Shevah Mitvos Biney Noach. Once the Torah was given started the obligation to keep it. One can’t be held accountable for that which he was never commanded!

    anon1m0us Your question is very strong!

    #942206

    I find it very interesting that if the number 6 million is accurate, it comes out that the number of people nifter during Makas Choshech and during the Holocaust were the same. I hinted at this in my first post…

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