Visiting the Har Habayis

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  • #2098273
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    See https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/2098230/uproar-after-harav-yosef-slams-ben-gvir-for-visiting-har-habayis.html

    This an argument between the Rambam (Beis habechira 6,14) and the Ravad there whether currently the sanctity of the mikdash still and was sanctified also for the future and there is kares when going there. The ravad’s view is that it does not and therefore there is no kares.

    #2098309
    The Real Truth
    Participant

    OK

    #2098312
    ujm
    Participant

    Lord Moses Monteofiore once ascended to the Har HaBayis. He was then strongly criticism by the Gedolei Eretz Yisroel. He immediately went to the Gedolim and cried to them for mechila, saying he would never have gone had he known they ruled it impermissible.

    #2098315
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Yabia Omer (5,26) requires us to publicize that we should follow the Rambam as most poskim do.

    #2098318

    I understand there are other issues here beyond the machloket:

    1) where is prohibited area. It seems that modern archaeology can rule out some areas not being in the mikdash. Just make sure those who make determination are not motivated by politics. I did not see charedi poskim addressing this issue, do they? maybe they do not think that current archeology reached definite conclusions.

    2) political implications aggravating not just the locals, but a billion of Muslims worldwide. This seems the main factor for the negative psak … Position to ignore that billion is definitely political and , while understandable, is very risky and should not be in hands of some crazies who can’t even get to Knesset on their own.

    #2098340

    Moses Montefiore was aware of the ban, and tried to abide by it – he was in a fully closed box, carried around by the Muslims. He was still pelted in the best knesset and said that he won’t do it again. This was in 1855, at the end Crimean war with British having an upper hand. in 1856, Ottomans formally allowed Temple Visits (with individually paid for tickets). Baron Rotschild went up several times despite being admonished by Rabbis, including R Kook. Theodore Hertzl did not go in respect to the ban.

    #2098342
    Real daas Torah
    Participant

    The Gedolim of the yeshiva world said not to go so we can’t go. Conversation over

    #2098362
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    It’s also worth noting an additional concept which is left out of most discussions:
    Going up to har habayis is a question of kares.
    We find that when dealing with kares, especially in areas where there is room to make mistakes, we go overboard to prevent the slightest chance.

    Thus chometz on Pesach is prohibited b’mashehu, even the smallest amount, because consuming it incurs kares.

    Likewise, we put tremendous safeguards in place when a woman is a nida, in order to prevent her and her husband from inadvertently stumbling on this severe prohibition.
    And the Torah prohibited Yichud with a forbidden woman- one of the very few examples of a siyag min hatorah- because of the issur kares involved.

    When we are dealing with a shailoh of kares, and it’s an issue which is given over to regular individuals (as opposed to specific gedolei yisrael who are known for bein yirei shomayim), the proper thing to do is be strict.

    There’s no chiyuv to go up to har habayis, and it’s not even clear there is an advantage to going up (instead of just going to the kosel) without having a beis hamikdash to do avodah.

    Most of the reasons I’ve seen for going up fall in to one of two categories:
    1) emotional, poetic claims- “AH, how amazing it is to finally be back on top after 2000 years! You can feel the kedusha here!”
    2) nationalistic claims- we need to assert our sovereignty over Har Habayis, and the way to do so is by going up

    The first reason is nonsense. Poetry has no place in halacha. And emotional claims of “feeling” kedusha are made up. (Almost) nobody can truly ‘feel’ kedusha!
    (There’s the famous story of the woman who came to Rav. J.B. Soloveitchik asking permission to start wearing a tallis. He told her that she shouldn’t just “jump” into the mitzvah; she should start wearing it without the strings for a while, and them come back to discuss if she is ready to put the strings on.
    After a while she came back, and he asked her about her experience. She said “Rabbi, I can feel the holiness in the tallis. I’m truly ready to put the strings on!”
    He answered her, “A tallis without the strings is nothing more than a shawl. If you can feel so much holiness wearing a simple shawl, you don’t need to start putting on tzitzis!”)

    nationalistic claims are also problematic. Where do we find that we bend the halacha because “nationalism” plays a part?
    (We do find cases where chazal permitted certain things, where not doing those things would result in Jews losing out on owning Eretz Yisrael. But here the status quo is not being challenged by the arabs; we’re not in danger of losing control of Har Habayis, in the sense that chazal talk about.)

    #2098448
    Ray Kaufman
    Participant

    If going up to the makom hamiqdash is a state tumah is an issur kares, how were Rebbi Akiva, et al, allowed to do it?

    #2098556
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Rebbi Akiva must have cleansed themselves from tumah.

    #2098712
    Participant
    Participant

    going on har habayis is a question of a lav and asei, not kareis.

    regarding the “eivah” issue, which (according to the article on YWN) the gedolim were/are concerned about: Why is it a problem? If someone says they’ll shoot the whole city if I go to my house, that makes me a rodeif if I go in my house?

    #2098713
    Participant
    Participant

    PS said YWN article also said that going on har habayis can be an issur kareis. Again ,that is incorrect. It’s “merely” transgressing the din of shiluach machanos. Going into the azara betumah would be an issur kareis.

    #2098666
    GefilteFish
    Participant

    Where do we find that rebbi akiva et al went up to Har Habayis?

    I’m aware of the gemara at the end of makkos which states that they were overlooking har habayis.
    That’s where they saw a fox in the kodesh kedoshim; the other rabbonim cried in sadness, but rebbi akiva laughed (since he felt it indicated that G-d would fulfill His prophesy Abbott rebuilding yerushalayim as well. )

    Is there a specific source indicated that they actually went up on Har Habayis?

    #2098678
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    The fact that the religion of Islam (which just copied the jews) does not offer sacrifices is a shtikel proof (as well as many proofs from the Amoroim and the Gemara) that the jews of post-churban did not offer sacrifices on Bamos. This kinda disproves Raavads shita, as NO ONE – including Raavad himself – brought korbonos after the churban.
    remeber, if there is no kares or going on Har Habayis, there is no kares for Shita or Ha’alo Chutz – Bamos today would be permitted.
    Halacha, only goyim are allowed to bring korbanos today.

    #2098680
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    They had the ashes of the Parah for 300 years after the churban – it was only after the cursed Christians expelled us from the land that we lost the ashes – and MUCH more etc…

    my Q is: when it’s the right time to build – how will we? the mishna in Parah says that by 2nd Temple they had ashes from that had been brought to Bavel and back (big sugya).
    If we need to build in order to have parah, then we have no choice but to go up btuma. and if we DONT need Miqdash for Parah – then why cant we do it now?

    #2098717
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “The Gedolim of the yeshiva world said not to go so we can’t go. Conversation over”

    Not everyone holds by the hashkafah of the publishers of a social media site, even a frum site. Check with your LRP.

    #2098723
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    In the Igros Moshe, OC 2:113. R’ Moshe answers a question regarding the Har HaBayis.

    The question was raised about why the Shulchan Aruch and the Tur both don’t mention an issur of spitting on the Har HaBayis in modern times. The person who asked gave a possible explanation that the question is irrelevant since nobody is allowed on the Har HaBayis in modern times. R’ Moshe rejects that answer, and says that there are parts where people are allowed to walk. He then gives a different answer regarding the spitting question.

    From this, it appears that R’ Moshe held it was allowed to go on the Har HaBayis – indeed, R’ Tendler zt”l said many times that R’ Moshe was well aware of R’ Tendler’s going onto the Har HaBayis, and never attempted to dissuade him from doing so.

    #2098776
    reform rabbi
    Participant

    The Rambam’s view is that the sanctity is forever, so there is still a chiyuv kares for defiling the mikdash.

    The Rambam ascended the temple mount when he visited! Because it’s allowed to ascend the mount. Just asur to enter the mikdash.

    #2098852
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Who says the rambam went on har habayis? It’s a letter which may have not been written by him, and it could be referring to the kosel. Spitting would apply to the kosel too, which is probably what Rav Moshe was referring to.

    Rav moshe probably didn’t tell tendler anything about har habayis for the same reason he didn’t dissuade him from any other modern, zionist thing he did – he wouldn’t have listened.

    #2098876
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Avira,

    Nice guess. But Rav Moshe at times didn’t dissuade his sons from not doing things he held were prohibited. Proving what Rav Moshe’s opinion was from his silence is a fool’s errand. Rav Moshe did not assume he was Hashem’s enforcer on Earth.

    #2098886
    ujm
    Participant

    Tendler has a demonstrated history of lying about his father in law’s positions. Even during his lifetime.

    #2098895
    Shlomo 2
    Participant

    “Entering the Temple Mount— in Halacha and Jewish History” available online on the Hakirah site addresses many of the issues discussed here.

    #2098894
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Rabbi Tendler is on par with the average ‘talmid’ of a great goan. Because Rav Moshe’s main talmidim all kept a low and humble profile, he stood out. Unfortunately, it is the norm for the next generation to extend – and in rare cases even distort – the positions of their Master.

    #2098977
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Considering tendler is rav moshes only talmid who is modern and Zionist, i think it’s very telling that literally everyone else disagreed with him about rav Moshes views on those subjects.

    My rebbe rav belsky was close to rav moshe. I’ve met other talmidim too, but the list is very long and tendler is a complete outsider who went so far as to call on the government to interfere with parts of bris milah that rav Moshe held of and that he personally didn’t like

    #2099000
    Participant
    Participant

    did my previous two posts go to spam, or were they too tedious?

    spam

    #2099031
    Participant
    Participant

    and the previous one? also spam?
    if you send it to spam after it arrives in the inbox, it counts as deletion.

    but hey maybe god, I meant mods, found my post tedious.
    maybe too religious for such sensitive subjects like people going on har habayis who are too emotional to hear anything related to religion. (from me, of course. not anyone else.)

    #2099032
    Participant
    Participant

    i know. i should phrase it like this. “So going on har habayis upsets you? It makes you angry?” It should. But it’s not a kareis matter. It’s a shiluach machanos matter.

    #2099036

    This is repeated ridiculous motzi shem ra on r Moshe. You are claiming that r Moshe got himself an inappropriate chatan out of all numerous humble students he had. You are disparaging either his own judgment or his parental abilities. Given that his sons became hoshuve rabonim, I don’t see a reason to think his daughter is different.

    #2099063
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Also, rav dovid and yblch”t rav reuven are neither zionistic or modern.

    #2099072

    Avira, exactly, you have a proof that R Moshe raised great children who presumably chose great spouses. People, even gedolim, can disagree. Stop bad-mouthing those who happen not to agree with you.

    #2099116
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    It’s not motzei shem rah on rav moshe. And even tho I rarely agree with avirahs presentation of his points rabbi tender issues don’t come from disagreeing with him. You seem to have this point of gravitating towards rabbis who step over the line and then crying foul on everyone. You can’t just blanketly hail people for their love of academia. Rarely do you speak highly of any accepting gedolim or rabbit. Except, of course that there is a rabbi of a kollel down the block who you’ve mentioned actually knows your name.

    #2099127
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Many, many gedolim had children who didn’t follow their derech. The fact that most of rav moshes children were not only frum but gedolei torah who grew up in a hostile environment is astounding.

    That he had one son in law who turned out to be modern is not surprising; most people at that time were not what we would call yeshivishe, either his daughter wouldn’t fit with a yeshivishe guy and she needs to get married to, or tendler was a bochur who didn’t wear his hashkofos on his sleeve…or it could be he hadn’t developed those shitos yet. The possibilities are numerous, but none of them point to rav moshe being accepting of zionism, modern orthodoxy, or violations of halacha including ascending har habayis.

    There’s also no way rav moshe would allow breaking minhag makom, as the rabbonim in yerushalayim had long since forbade the practice, even if (and there isn’t) there was a legitimate heter.

    #2099128
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Tendler was also not a talmid of MTJ – he was in YU.

    #2099183
    ujm
    Participant

    Tendler met his wife in the New York Public Library. He then kept coming back there to meet her. He himself explained this in an interview published in the YU Commentator. By time Rav Moshe got wind of it, he didn’t have too much influence over who she chose to marry.

    #2099279
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Even if you disagree with R’ Tendler on many issues, perhaps still show some respect by referencing him as “Rav” (an omission that I’ve been guilty of on occasion as well). On many issues where his views are not widely accepted, I’d still give his analysis greater weight given his vastly greater intellectual understanding of the underlying science relative to most of his peers.

    #2099331
    ujm
    Participant

    If you’re going to give the analysis greater weight given his vastly greater intellectual understanding of the underlying science, then you’ll need to put Richard Dawkins and Stephen Hawking way ahead of him

    #2099377
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Gadol – i refer to controversial rabbis like rabbi kook and rabbo yoshe ber as rabbi, but i draw the line at people who get the government to attack jewish people for keeping mitzvos.

    #2099451

    Syag > You seem to have this point of gravitating towards rabbis who step over the line

    This might be a bias of the discussion here. Not many people here disrespect Rashi, so I don’t really need to comment on this. And when I quote, say, R Twersky, you don’t object, so you don’t notice that. When I quote someone I know personally, I have a fair mixture of those who have a more traditional or more modern derech. For your benefit, I mention person’s derech sometimes.

    My personal derech is to learn Torah from anyone who knows it well, whatever his derech is. And I am offended, in turn, by people who disparage someone just because they happen to disagree with them. I saw enough of Talmidei Chachamim on all sides of politics who do not behave like this.

    #2099452

    ujm, we discussed this shidduch story here. In the 2nd hand version I heard, possibly she approached him for “help with chemistry”, if I remember correctly. This does not contradict tht he was coming there for a reason, of course 🙂 Apparently, after they already met, R Moshe approached his Beit din haver R Tendler Senior and he approached the son. My deduction was that Miss Feinstein hinted that to her father somehow …

    Whatever it is, Avira who does not seem have researched this topic seems to be stuck in the stira that R Tendler is a Zionist and R Moshe is not, therefore some great tragedy might have occurred. Is it maybe possible that R Moshe was OK with a S-I-L that holds different opinions from the Rav himself?!

    #2099455

    Avira > Rav Tendler was also not a talmid of MTJ – he was in YU.

    You are continue disparaging R Moshe. Now, he did not even read the shidduch resume. Could you please stop.

    #2099453

    ujm, you can refer to physicists on the issues of physics, but if you look at relationship between science and Torah, you would obviously start with someone who is bokeh in both.

    #2099470
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    AAQ – by incorrectly, repeatedly referring to this as being about “someone you disagree with” you make it very clear that you don’t really get it. When someone, for example, makes declarations that are against torah, considers forbidden things permissible, cuts corners where not allowed it isnt a matter of disagreeing. When someone does something wrong, they are doing something wrong. You can’t pull a “different strokes for different folks” in judaism unless halacha is being followed. And you like that people are steeped in academia so you want them to be right, without researching it with those capable of making that determination. No, I don’t think avirah is that person, but you are just as blind as he calling certain rabbis honorable when they have proven themselves otherwise just because you do agree with them.

    #2099475
    ujm
    Participant

    AAQ: He was far from being a boki in Torah.

    #2099485
    ujm
    Participant

    I provided the first hand shidduch story, as related directly by the protagonist himself.

    #2099489

    ujm, as I said, these 2 versions seem to compliment each other, not contradict. I heard it from someone who was learning together w/ R Tendler in his later years and heard it directly from him.

    #2099490

    Syag,
    I am not familiar w/ R Tendler’s declarations that are “against Torah”. I am not fully familiar with all he said and did over years, I read some of his science-related work and it was reasonable. He was R Moshe’s s-i-l and not put in herem by him, as far as I know. A quick search shows that R Reuven Feinstein spoke at R Tendler’s levaya. All of this just has to give you a pause before proceeding, but I see no acknowledgement.

    #2099495
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    So basically you are confirming exactly what I wrote. You like his science, you haven’t bothered to look into anything, he’s not in cherem and he got a hesped. Exactly what I said above.

    If a car gets lousy mileage and people complain about the legroom do you decide that it must be a good car because it wasn’t recalled?

    Not everything qualifies for cherem. That doesn’t mean its okay. And if reb moshe felt his son in law was aligned with him nobody would be daring to say otherwise. That speaks for itself too. Don’t decide people are legit based on how badly you would like them to be. As I said, thats blinders too, just in the other direction.

    #2099502

    tp clarify, I meant his works on Torah & Science, not on pure science. I think hespedim are online. Maybe it is on you to find R Reuven’s hesped and see whether he says what you say.

    #2099604
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Thank you for reminding me again what I keep forgetting, you can’t be wrong and you aren’t interested in change. You admit you are lacking information but your response is to tell me to do research.
    Best of luck to you.

    #2099611
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Avira,

    Rav Moshe did not tell his sons that they were doing things that he held to prohibited. He never thought of himself as God’s policeman. Maybe he left that for you.

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