Wait for The Guy Behind You to Finish Shemona Esrei

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  • #588897
    noitallmr
    Participant

    This is something that has been disturbing me for a long time. Why is it that such a Halacho which is Mefurash in Mishna Brura like nay other, people just ignore. I’ve noticed this countless times even Chashuver people taking 3 steps back at the end of Shemona Esra when the guy behind you is still davening his S.E. This is 100% Ossur.

    Why is everyone so lax about this Halocho?

    Please explain…

    #950430
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I thought this only applied if there was nothing in between the two of you (like a chair or something)?

    #950431
    feivel
    Participant

    like most Halachos that are trampled on, it usually means that it is a particularly important Halachah, and the Yetzer Horah spends extra koach to make sure it is light in the eyes of the klal.

    i would guess that this is a particularly important inyun because it is disrespectful both to your chaver and to the Shchinah.

    lashon horah was once such an inyon, before the Chofetz Chaim began his war on the Yetzer.

    SJ this applies if there is not a Mechitzah (such as a support post, a bimah, certain shtenders. a chair and typical table dont qualify.

    #950432

    We need everyone to cry out against talking during davening.Many other michsholos stem from this main problem. There should be a rule that no one should talk at all even to ask him his name for an aliyah since this distracts evryone frm the main point of davening. There should be another rule: No one should greet each other in shul, especially when the greetee is tardy. He shouldnt expect anyone to greet him, especially when he does this all the time

    #950433
    Esther1
    Member

    I was at a bris this week. I was blown away by the amount of talking in the shul! I would never have believed it possible if I hadn’t heard it myself. Shocking!

    #950434
    noitallmr
    Participant

    The few opportunities a day granted to us to make our requests and thank Hashem for all he’s done for us (even for being alive right now)- how people can waste that priceless time is beyond me…

    #950435
    posek hador
    Member

    Well it is surely a halachah. There are R”L too many Halachos That the oilam just blibez amei aratzim . One reason it is trampled on is because nobody else does.So if you do it eventually people might notice there is what to be makpid on. and what about waling in front of someone davening. there is no heter if their is another way and you have no reason th leave.

    #950436
    oomis
    Participant

    Not only is it wrong to talk during davening, but I have heard that it is especially heinous to speak when someone is saying Kaddish

    #950437
    mw13
    Participant

    And what’s with the people who walk out every 2 seconds? This is a complete lack of respect for the kedushah of a shul, and of Hashem. And walking out during laining is also a lack of respect for the torah, and an issur gammur!

    #950438
    mw13
    Participant

    “I thought this only applied if there was nothing in between the two of you (like a chair or something)?”

    Yes, yhe issur of walking in front of a person davening SE is only when there’s nothing in between you, and a table acts as a mechitza in this regard.

    #950439
    Joseph
    Participant

    A person should also be careful to not daven Shemone Esrei behind a door — thus preventing others from entering or leaving that door while he is in middle of Shemone Esrei.

    #950440
    Joseph
    Participant

    ames, was the mispallel physically blocking the door? That is, of course, wrong too. My thought was regarding the prohibition to walk within 4 amos in front of someone davening shemonei esrei (since the Shechina is there, and it disturbs the mispallel.) As a result, a person cannot daven Shemone Esrei from a spot the 4 amos in front of him include the entranceway of a door.

    #950441
    notpashut
    Member

    1)There is a limud zchus. The Halacha is that if someone is not mechaven during the first brocha of shmoneh esrai his tefilla is void. Hence, say many poskim, if you see that the guy is looking around during SE & clearly not having kavana you can walk in front of him ’cause he’s not really davening anyway.

    2)Talking during chazaras hashatz is THE ONLY PLACE IN SHULCHAN ARUCH where it says that one’s sin is “too great to bear”. (not to say that at other points in davening it’s OK)

    3)Speaking during kaddish is l’havdil like speaking during the national anthem in the presence of the President. (not my mashal)

    4)There is a famous story with R Moshe Ztz”l not walking in front of a child who was davening. I don’t have koach (or time) to type it out.

    5)A table is generally speaking NOT sufficient as a mechitza because it needs to be 10 tefachim high by four tefachim wide with no gaps in the middle (which tables, shtenders & chairs usually have).

    6)I have heard a Rav say that if someone is “metza’er” another jew by davening an abnormally long SE & thereby “locking” him in place – the entire SE is a “mitzva haba b’aveira”.

    #950442
    chofetzchaim
    Member

    I heard from a chashuveh posek that if someone is davening in the middle of the aisle or by the door he is considered a “bor birshus harabim” and it is muttar to walk in front of him.

    #950443
    Chacham
    Participant

    rav shlomo zalman zt”l said that if one is davening by a door or you must leave than you can walk in front of him

    #950444
    notpashut
    Member

    Chacham,

    You heard that or you saw it in a sefer?

    #950445
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I have heard a Rav say that if someone is “metza’er” another jew by davening an abnormally long SE & thereby “locking” him in place – the entire SE is a “mitzva haba b’aveira”.

    What constitutes a long SE? I am a very slow davener and shuls are often half way through chazaras hashatz when I finish.

    When I was in 3rd grade, I was davening SE. When I finished (much after my class), one of my friends ridiculed me for taking so long. I made up an excuse about having to restart, but it took me a long time to daven the whole SE and not just “do it for looks” to keep time with others. I didn’t daven a good SE until I was in 6th grade or so after that incident. I would hate my good version of SE to be considered a sin if I blocked someone in by accident.

    #950446
    intellegent
    Member

    SJSinNYC

    It’s amazing how you can remember things from so far back! i remember in third grade, I was still in middle of s.e. and the class was already saying oleinu. the girl in front of me was very particular about where she stood and she pushed me not knowing i was still in middle of se (why it would be fine to do that if i would not be davening is an other story.) I still remember how horrible i felt being pushed in middle of shemona esrai.

    #950447
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Intel, I think its even more amazing how small life events can effect us. I still think about that every time I say SE. Its amazing how careful you have to be.

    #950449
    notpashut
    Member

    Sjs,

    He specifically was talking about Yomin Noraim when some people’s SE tend to get REALLY long.

    I guess everyone has to use their judgement.

    As a general rule, anyone in doubt should try to daven directly in front of a pillar or wall.

    #950450
    cherrybim
    Participant

    There are many nuances and heterim associated with this halacha. However, the prohibition is to SIT or LEAN within four amos “in front of” or “behind” or “to the side of” someone davening shmoneh esrei. However, for “walking or passing”; the issur is only “in front of”. You can walk behind or to the side of a person davining shmone esrei.

    #950451
    lesschumras
    Participant

    I’ve noticed this countless times even Chashuver people taking 3 steps back at the end of Shemona Esra when the guy behind you is still davening his S.E. This is 100% Ossur.

    In all seriousness, how would this work? Would everyone have to wait till the person in the last row finished SE ( especially at a simcha where there wouldn’t be any chairs or tables) and then proceed in an orderly fashion until the people in the front take three steps back?

    #950453
    mw13
    Participant

    lesschumras, just a limud zichus – it’s very possible that these people do not realize there is someone davening SE behind them. It’s happened to me more than once.

    notpashut, there is one other time that the phrase “one’s sin is “too great to bear”” is mentioned: when Cayen killed Havel, he asked Hashem “is my sin too great to bear?” And, as you said, the SHULCHAN ARUCH says about one who talks during chazaras hashatz his sin is too great to bear. (not to say that at other points in davening it’s OK)

    #950454
    notpashut
    Member

    mw,

    I said it’s the only place IN SHULCHAN ARUCH.

    #950455
    mw13
    Participant

    notpashut,

    i know, just proving the point even more.

    #950456
    notpashut
    Member

    oh, sorry, didn’t chap.

    #950457
    LanderTalmid
    Participant

    lesschumras: If the person behind you is just waiting for the person behind him, I think that he would be considered to have finished SE and you would be allowed to take 3 steps back.

    SJSinNYc: Probably the aveirah of delaying the person in front of you would only apply if you are still davening after Chazoras Hashatz, however during ChH he can’t go anywhere anyway.

    #950458
    Sam2
    Participant

    Ishei Yisrael gives reasons to be Meikel in most cases.

    Also, R’ Shlomo Zalman was famous for saying that if someone is in the way of the Tzibbur while Davening then you can physically move him out of the way. He is Ba Bigvul of the Tzibbur.

    #950459

    I had the experience of waiting for the guy behind me about 15- 20 minutes (one of them I couldnt back up till yhe end of the following minyan) three davenings over 2 days. everf since then I try to get a seat in the back of a shul, but the problem is when people daven behind me by the bookshelves. I f someone wants to daven long THEY SHOULD SIT IN THE FRONT

    #950460
    WIY
    Member

    This name

    I agree. In fact I once told a long Davener to daven in the front. These guys should realize that in a way they are a hazard to other people. How many times have I missed kedusha because of long Daveners?

    #950461
    Sam2
    Participant

    WIY: In such a case it is perfectly permissible to end your Shmoneh Esrei and answer all Amens and Kedushahs and such without taking the 3 steps. In fact, the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch even holds that you can answer Amen in Elokai Netzor. It’s probably even okay to take the 3 steps if the person’s Dalet Amos is blocking a legitimate Davening space in the Shul. And while I rarely rely on this Heter myself, it is impossible to tell anyone that any Halachah brought down in Ishei Yisrael isn’t enough to rely upon.

    #950462
    Yussel
    Participant

    I have seen MANY times that a person comes into shul after the minyan has started (mincha) and just starts davening S.E. in back of somebody and proceeds to daven such a long S.E. that the other person is forced to stay in place through Chazaras Hashatz, Aleinu and Kadish yasom. I can’t believe that the halacha demands this.

    #950463
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Why do long daveners and late comers daven SE blocking doors and aisles?

    #950464
    etzhar
    Participant

    Sam2. Would like the chapter and verse for the Ishei Yisroel Please.

    #950465
    Sam2
    Participant

    etzhar: 29:14. Also, see other places in Chapter 29 there where he seems to be Meramez to the Heter that it’s okay to walk in front of them if the person Davening’s eyes are closed. He is only Meikel if they are blocking an aisle (and not in an established seat) but he also quotes those in the footnotes who are even more Meikel.

    #950466
    squeak
    Participant

    “Long daveners in the back”

    And let’s also attack the marching band practice in the back. You know what I’m talking about, the guys who are locomoting around by the entrance humming and mumbling (sotto voce).

    #950467
    LanderTalmid
    Participant

    What about sitting down to say tachanun if someone is davening behind/next to you?

    #950468
    writersoul
    Member

    PSA: DO NOT BLOCK ELEVATORS. There are limited-mobility people who need them- the hallway by the elevator is not just blank space.

    A lot of this is either inconsideration or just basic cluelessness.

    #950469
    Bendit
    Participant

    How about waiting until the chazen gets to kedusha to take 3 steps forward most people just take their 3 steps forward after their done

    #950470
    Toi
    Participant

    and theyre making a mistake. az mah?

    #950471
    nem621
    Member

    i usually take a little longer (still finishing before chazaratz ashatz) and there is someone in yeshiva who a lot of the time trying to exit by my seat ends up pushing me half of the time

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