December 16, 2008 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #588897noitallmrParticipant
This is something that has been disturbing me for a long time. Why is it that such a Halacho which is Mefurash in Mishna Brura like nay other, people just ignore. I’ve noticed this countless times even Chashuver people taking 3 steps back at the end of Shemona Esra when the guy behind you is still davening his S.E. This is 100% Ossur.
Why is everyone so lax about this Halocho?
Please explain…December 17, 2008 12:07 am at 12:07 am #950430
I thought this only applied if there was nothing in between the two of you (like a chair or something)?December 17, 2008 12:17 am at 12:17 am #950431feivelParticipant
like most Halachos that are trampled on, it usually means that it is a particularly important Halachah, and the Yetzer Horah spends extra koach to make sure it is light in the eyes of the klal.
i would guess that this is a particularly important inyun because it is disrespectful both to your chaver and to the Shchinah.
lashon horah was once such an inyon, before the Chofetz Chaim began his war on the Yetzer.
SJ this applies if there is not a Mechitzah (such as a support post, a bimah, certain shtenders. a chair and typical table dont qualify.December 17, 2008 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #950432ThinkStraightMember
We need everyone to cry out against talking during davening.Many other michsholos stem from this main problem. There should be a rule that no one should talk at all even to ask him his name for an aliyah since this distracts evryone frm the main point of davening. There should be another rule: No one should greet each other in shul, especially when the greetee is tardy. He shouldnt expect anyone to greet him, especially when he does this all the timeDecember 17, 2008 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #950433Esther1Member
I was at a bris this week. I was blown away by the amount of talking in the shul! I would never have believed it possible if I hadn’t heard it myself. Shocking!December 17, 2008 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #950434noitallmrParticipant
The few opportunities a day granted to us to make our requests and thank Hashem for all he’s done for us (even for being alive right now)- how people can waste that priceless time is beyond me…December 17, 2008 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #950435posek hadorMember
Well it is surely a halachah. There are R”L too many Halachos That the oilam just blibez amei aratzim . One reason it is trampled on is because nobody else does.So if you do it eventually people might notice there is what to be makpid on. and what about waling in front of someone davening. there is no heter if their is another way and you have no reason th leave.December 18, 2008 3:32 am at 3:32 am #950436oomisParticipant
Not only is it wrong to talk during davening, but I have heard that it is especially heinous to speak when someone is saying KaddishDecember 18, 2008 4:13 am at 4:13 am #950437
And what’s with the people who walk out every 2 seconds? This is a complete lack of respect for the kedushah of a shul, and of Hashem. And walking out during laining is also a lack of respect for the torah, and an issur gammur!December 18, 2008 4:17 am at 4:17 am #950438
“I thought this only applied if there was nothing in between the two of you (like a chair or something)?”
Yes, yhe issur of walking in front of a person davening SE is only when there’s nothing in between you, and a table acts as a mechitza in this regard.January 26, 2009 3:08 am at 3:08 am #950439JosephParticipant
A person should also be careful to not daven Shemone Esrei behind a door — thus preventing others from entering or leaving that door while he is in middle of Shemone Esrei.January 26, 2009 6:19 am at 6:19 am #950440JosephParticipant
ames, was the mispallel physically blocking the door? That is, of course, wrong too. My thought was regarding the prohibition to walk within 4 amos in front of someone davening shemonei esrei (since the Shechina is there, and it disturbs the mispallel.) As a result, a person cannot daven Shemone Esrei from a spot the 4 amos in front of him include the entranceway of a door.January 26, 2009 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #950441
1)There is a limud zchus. The Halacha is that if someone is not mechaven during the first brocha of shmoneh esrai his tefilla is void. Hence, say many poskim, if you see that the guy is looking around during SE & clearly not having kavana you can walk in front of him ’cause he’s not really davening anyway.
2)Talking during chazaras hashatz is THE ONLY PLACE IN SHULCHAN ARUCH where it says that one’s sin is “too great to bear”. (not to say that at other points in davening it’s OK)
3)Speaking during kaddish is l’havdil like speaking during the national anthem in the presence of the President. (not my mashal)
4)There is a famous story with R Moshe Ztz”l not walking in front of a child who was davening. I don’t have koach (or time) to type it out.
5)A table is generally speaking NOT sufficient as a mechitza because it needs to be 10 tefachim high by four tefachim wide with no gaps in the middle (which tables, shtenders & chairs usually have).
6)I have heard a Rav say that if someone is “metza’er” another jew by davening an abnormally long SE & thereby “locking” him in place – the entire SE is a “mitzva haba b’aveira”.January 26, 2009 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #950442chofetzchaimMember
I heard from a chashuveh posek that if someone is davening in the middle of the aisle or by the door he is considered a “bor birshus harabim” and it is muttar to walk in front of him.January 27, 2009 3:26 am at 3:26 am #950443ChachamParticipant
rav shlomo zalman zt”l said that if one is davening by a door or you must leave than you can walk in front of himJanuary 27, 2009 6:16 am at 6:16 am #950444
You heard that or you saw it in a sefer?January 27, 2009 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #950445
I have heard a Rav say that if someone is “metza’er” another jew by davening an abnormally long SE & thereby “locking” him in place – the entire SE is a “mitzva haba b’aveira”.
What constitutes a long SE? I am a very slow davener and shuls are often half way through chazaras hashatz when I finish.
When I was in 3rd grade, I was davening SE. When I finished (much after my class), one of my friends ridiculed me for taking so long. I made up an excuse about having to restart, but it took me a long time to daven the whole SE and not just “do it for looks” to keep time with others. I didn’t daven a good SE until I was in 6th grade or so after that incident. I would hate my good version of SE to be considered a sin if I blocked someone in by accident.January 27, 2009 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #950446intellegentMember
It’s amazing how you can remember things from so far back! i remember in third grade, I was still in middle of s.e. and the class was already saying oleinu. the girl in front of me was very particular about where she stood and she pushed me not knowing i was still in middle of se (why it would be fine to do that if i would not be davening is an other story.) I still remember how horrible i felt being pushed in middle of shemona esrai.January 27, 2009 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #950447
Intel, I think its even more amazing how small life events can effect us. I still think about that every time I say SE. Its amazing how careful you have to be.January 28, 2009 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #950449
He specifically was talking about Yomin Noraim when some people’s SE tend to get REALLY long.
I guess everyone has to use their judgement.
As a general rule, anyone in doubt should try to daven directly in front of a pillar or wall.January 28, 2009 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #950450cherrybimParticipant
There are many nuances and heterim associated with this halacha. However, the prohibition is to SIT or LEAN within four amos “in front of” or “behind” or “to the side of” someone davening shmoneh esrei. However, for “walking or passing”; the issur is only “in front of”. You can walk behind or to the side of a person davining shmone esrei.January 29, 2009 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #950451lesschumrasParticipant
I’ve noticed this countless times even Chashuver people taking 3 steps back at the end of Shemona Esra when the guy behind you is still davening his S.E. This is 100% Ossur.
In all seriousness, how would this work? Would everyone have to wait till the person in the last row finished SE ( especially at a simcha where there wouldn’t be any chairs or tables) and then proceed in an orderly fashion until the people in the front take three steps back?January 30, 2009 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #950453
lesschumras, just a limud zichus – it’s very possible that these people do not realize there is someone davening SE behind them. It’s happened to me more than once.
notpashut, there is one other time that the phrase “one’s sin is “too great to bear”” is mentioned: when Cayen killed Havel, he asked Hashem “is my sin too great to bear?” And, as you said, the SHULCHAN ARUCH says about one who talks during chazaras hashatz his sin is too great to bear. (not to say that at other points in davening it’s OK)January 31, 2009 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #950454
I said it’s the only place IN SHULCHAN ARUCH.February 1, 2009 1:36 am at 1:36 am #950455
i know, just proving the point even more.February 1, 2009 6:37 am at 6:37 am #950456
oh, sorry, didn’t chap.April 23, 2013 1:29 am at 1:29 am #950457LanderTalmidParticipant
lesschumras: If the person behind you is just waiting for the person behind him, I think that he would be considered to have finished SE and you would be allowed to take 3 steps back.
SJSinNYc: Probably the aveirah of delaying the person in front of you would only apply if you are still davening after Chazoras Hashatz, however during ChH he can’t go anywhere anyway.April 23, 2013 1:42 am at 1:42 am #950458
Ishei Yisrael gives reasons to be Meikel in most cases.
Also, R’ Shlomo Zalman was famous for saying that if someone is in the way of the Tzibbur while Davening then you can physically move him out of the way. He is Ba Bigvul of the Tzibbur.April 23, 2013 4:56 am at 4:56 am #950459This name is already takenParticipant
I had the experience of waiting for the guy behind me about 15- 20 minutes (one of them I couldnt back up till yhe end of the following minyan) three davenings over 2 days. everf since then I try to get a seat in the back of a shul, but the problem is when people daven behind me by the bookshelves. I f someone wants to daven long THEY SHOULD SIT IN THE FRONTApril 23, 2013 5:11 am at 5:11 am #950460WIYMember
I agree. In fact I once told a long Davener to daven in the front. These guys should realize that in a way they are a hazard to other people. How many times have I missed kedusha because of long Daveners?April 23, 2013 5:17 am at 5:17 am #950461
WIY: In such a case it is perfectly permissible to end your Shmoneh Esrei and answer all Amens and Kedushahs and such without taking the 3 steps. In fact, the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch even holds that you can answer Amen in Elokai Netzor. It’s probably even okay to take the 3 steps if the person’s Dalet Amos is blocking a legitimate Davening space in the Shul. And while I rarely rely on this Heter myself, it is impossible to tell anyone that any Halachah brought down in Ishei Yisrael isn’t enough to rely upon.April 23, 2013 9:19 am at 9:19 am #950462YusselParticipant
I have seen MANY times that a person comes into shul after the minyan has started (mincha) and just starts davening S.E. in back of somebody and proceeds to daven such a long S.E. that the other person is forced to stay in place through Chazaras Hashatz, Aleinu and Kadish yasom. I can’t believe that the halacha demands this.April 23, 2013 10:12 am at 10:12 am #950463lesschumrasParticipant
Why do long daveners and late comers daven SE blocking doors and aisles?April 23, 2013 10:35 am at 10:35 am #950464etzharParticipant
Sam2. Would like the chapter and verse for the Ishei Yisroel Please.April 23, 2013 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #950465
etzhar: 29:14. Also, see other places in Chapter 29 there where he seems to be Meramez to the Heter that it’s okay to walk in front of them if the person Davening’s eyes are closed. He is only Meikel if they are blocking an aisle (and not in an established seat) but he also quotes those in the footnotes who are even more Meikel.April 23, 2013 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #950466squeakParticipant
“Long daveners in the back”
And let’s also attack the marching band practice in the back. You know what I’m talking about, the guys who are locomoting around by the entrance humming and mumbling (sotto voce).May 3, 2013 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #950467LanderTalmidParticipant
What about sitting down to say tachanun if someone is davening behind/next to you?May 3, 2013 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #950468writersoulMember
PSA: DO NOT BLOCK ELEVATORS. There are limited-mobility people who need them- the hallway by the elevator is not just blank space.
A lot of this is either inconsideration or just basic cluelessness.May 3, 2013 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #950469BenditParticipant
How about waiting until the chazen gets to kedusha to take 3 steps forward most people just take their 3 steps forward after their doneMay 4, 2013 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #950470ToiParticipant
and theyre making a mistake. az mah?May 5, 2013 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #950471nem621Member
i usually take a little longer (still finishing before chazaratz ashatz) and there is someone in yeshiva who a lot of the time trying to exit by my seat ends up pushing me half of the time
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