February 14, 2022 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #2060179
It is dangerous as we don’t know his balancing abilities,February 14, 2022 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #2060267Hill of BeansParticipant
Is this a 1 in a hundred thousand occurrence?
Should we also stop the Choson from breaking the glass under the Chupa since there are well documented instances, multiple times, where he cut himself and need to be taken from the chasuna?February 14, 2022 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #2060276
Where is the halacha to lift the chasan?February 14, 2022 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #2060280
Where is the halacha to lift the choson on a chair?
Where is the halacha to walk the choson after dancing to his tish?February 14, 2022 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #2060282
Fathers shouldn’t put their children on their shoulder since the child might fall?February 14, 2022 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #2060286
A Rav told me that he advises hasanim to break the glass with the heel to avoid a trauma.
We have numerous cases in Gemorah when a practice was called off due to freak cases that happened.
For example, a cohen breaking a leg when running to get avodah. Apparently, they did not wait for the second case.
Maybe there were close calls before with cohanim pushing each other? For many dangerous events, close calls are a good predictor. For example, number of sudden stops when driving is a good predictor of someone who might end in an accident. So, think of close calls and correct your middos accordingly.February 14, 2022 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #2060287
One must weigh the risk and act accordingly.February 14, 2022 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #20602882scentsParticipant
Hill of beans,
“Should we also stop the Choson from breaking the glass under the Chupa since there are well documented instances, multiple times, where he cut himself and need to be taken from the chasuna?”
What the Choson chooses to do, especially if there is a minhag associated with his actions is not to compare to placing the Choson on a table throwing him off balance while elevated from the ground putting him at significant unnecessary risk.February 14, 2022 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #2060341
Also weigh the harm associated. One will not die from breaking a glass and it is usually rolled into a cloth napkin.February 14, 2022 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #2060340
Aside from the general obligation to be mesamach choson v’kalah I doubt there is any actual source where chazal bring down that lifting the choson/kalah on chairs, tables etc. is simply an extension of the custom for some to hoist the kalah (not the Choson) on their shoulders and dance. We learn this in several places including Ketubot (17a)
רַב אַחָא מַרְכֵּיב לַהּ אַכַּתְפֵּיהּ וּמְרַקֵּד אָמְרִי לֵיהּ רַבָּנַן אֲנַן מַהוּ לְמִיעְבַּד הָכִי אֲמַר לְהוּ אִי דָּמְיָין עֲלַיְיכוּ כִּכְשׁוּרָא לְחַיֵּי וְאִי לָא לָא
Very loosely translated: Rav Acḥa would place the kallah on his shoulders and dance. The Rabbonim said to him: What is the psak…is it permitted for us to do so as well? Rav Acha said to them: If brides are comparable for you to a beam, fine, but if not, no, you may not.
Apparently this minhag was subsequently extended to the choson but some rabbonim felt the custom of having the brides legs dangling over someone’s shoulders and carried around the simcha hall of that era was undignified, untziniusdik and potentially problematic from the perspective of negiah etc. and chairs were added to the formula. (Nitei Gavriel, Nissuin, 41:14)February 14, 2022 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #2060356
Gadol, tru, if I recall correctly, the methods employed by T’Ch might have involved risk to them (other than in carrying kallah) rather than to the chatan.February 14, 2022 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #2060357
RebE > One must weigh the risk
Match the weight of the chatan to the maximal allowed for the table?February 14, 2022 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #2060391
AAQ, cute but the table not collapse but the chasan lost his balance.February 14, 2022 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #2060393KuvultParticipant
I’ve seen Rabbonim who do not allow the Kallah in the chair to be strongly bounced up and down.February 14, 2022 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #2060417
Kuvult: That’s because of tznius.February 14, 2022 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #2060421
> chasan lost his balance.
RebE, maybe add safety grips attached to the table? Maybe this procedure is a moshal for the upcoming married life – treated as a King, but turbulence ahead? So, chasanim need to learn how to keep their balance.February 14, 2022 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #2060451sifsei chachamimParticipant
There is a minhag brought in holy seforim to lift the chosson higher than everyone else.
Personally I think we should find another way to do it.February 15, 2022 11:44 am at 11:44 am #2060619midwesternerParticipant
AAQ: Actually if you check out the sugya, the payis for ketores that was instituted because of the incident on the ramp was not established until it happened a second time.February 15, 2022 11:45 am at 11:45 am #2060622
Anyways, until 15-20 years ago I don’t remember chasanim being lifted on a table. It was always and only on a chair that they lifted the choson. The table seems to be a bit modernish.
In fact, the idea of lifting the choson and the kallah at the same time to wave to each other is also nisht oisgehalten. It wasn’t done in ehrliche weddings until not too long ago. And it’s lacking in the tznius department, especially since the chosen and kallah aren’t the only ones who gain visibility across the mechitza when that happens.February 15, 2022 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #2060696
“And it’s lacking in the tznius department, especially since the chosen and kallah aren’t the only ones who gain visibility across the mechitza when that happens”
I would strongly suggest that it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize that there is almost a 100 percent liklihood that the majority of guests at the simcha will as you say “gain visibility” of the kallah that is ganz assur under hilchos tzinius. Ask any woman you know about the practical challenges of maintaining modesty while walking up one of the modern open staircases or having a office with glass doors and standup desk with no modesty panel. I don’t understand why this is even an issue if the table/chair lifting is done on opposite sides of the mechitza. Find a more respectful way of showing kovod.February 15, 2022 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #2060708
There’s the obvious issue of the choson being lifted over the mechitza and viewing the women’s section (before even getting into the issue of the women dressed to kill.)February 15, 2022 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #2060777
“There’s the obvious issue of the choson being lifted over the mechitza and viewing the women’s section…”
I’m glad its an “obvious issue” of a Choson being carried on a table holding on for dear life being “lifted over” the mechitza where the bochurim presumably hand over the table (with the Choson still hanging on) to the women on the other side so he can watch his kallah and all her friends engaging in you know what??? Meanwhile, the Mashgiach at the simcha hall is checking his Hashgacha Manual to decide whether he needs to yell STOP!!February 15, 2022 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #2060788Johnny PicklesauceParticipant
Raboisai, arn’t we getting a bit cought up in far fetched things? When you make a wedding, ask your LOR if it’s the right thing to lift up the chassan! Shoin.February 15, 2022 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #2060813
“When you make a wedding, ask your LOR if it’s the right thing to lift up the chassan!
Johnny: And just assume its OK to lift up the Kallah??February 15, 2022 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #2060829
And there’s no heter to videotape the women dancing. Knowing full and well it WILL be viewed by men.February 16, 2022 3:57 am at 3:57 am #2060876Johnny PicklesauceParticipant
Gedolah Hadorah: Why do you have to mun people on everything they write to the last nitty gritty detail? Can’t we all be humans? L’Mashal, do I have to point out that you presumably by mistake typed two question marks?? No! Obviously when I said chassan, I meant the kallah also. Shoin.
P.S.: Sorry if I’m being a little too harsh, but take this mussar haskil to heart, and apply it to you’re life. (You know those teachers/rabeim that say) I’m talking to my self also; We all need mussar!February 16, 2022 3:59 am at 3:59 am #2060878
midwesterner, thanks for the correction!
Yoma 22-23: first episode is when one kills another in anger (and father of the victim is trying to keep the knife tahor..). This did not lead to the prohibition as this was clearly an issue of anger after competition. Second episode that I referred to when one pushed the other was clearly during the competition and lead to banning the practice. So, it seems that Beit Din did not mind people getting competitive, just not getting physical. Btw, mussar recommends to parents who can’t hold themselves from murder (shouting at children) should use positive rewards and competitions between children. Try saying “quietly” to your spouse that the other kid two years ago did that homework easily.February 16, 2022 8:02 am at 8:02 am #2060879
By the way, what’s up with tables and supersizing everything?
Seems like _sitting_ on a chair is more traditional and safe (and Kings used to sit even in Beis Hamikdash, nobody put them on a shaky table!).
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