Was Hordus a Jew?

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  • #2112923
    rightwriter
    Participant

    Encyclopedias/online refer to him as being a Jew? I thought he was Roman or Greek…

    #2112981
    Ray Kaufman
    Participant

    Hordus was an Halachic Jew. The Hasmonian king, Alexander Yanai conquered Idumia (Edom) and converted the population. Horus was of the third generation after the conversion and, therefore was kosher l’kahal. P.S. Just because he was an halachic Jew doesn’t mean he was a good guy, On the other hand, he did build the Beis HaMiqdash. The Beis HaMiqdash that’s shown in every book and the models in every museum depict his binyan.

    #2112984
    Ray Kaufman
    Participant

    Hordus was an Idumean and a halachic Jew. Alexander Yanai conquered Idumea (Edom) and converted the population. Hordus was of the third generation after the conversion so he was kosher l’kahal. Or course, that doesn’t necessarily mean he was a good guy, but he did rebuild the Beis HaMiqdash.

    #2112987
    1a2b3c
    Participant

    He was an eved, as the Gemara says in Bava Basra 3b.

    #2112991
    akuperma
    Participant

    There is no indication he or his ancestors kept Shabbos or kashrus, so kis conversion would have been as valid as those arranged by the zionist government for secular non-Jewish immigrants of Jewish descent. Note there were several “kings” (more or less Roman vassals than monarchs) with that name, and some were definitely halachicly Jewish based on maternal descent from women who were definitely Jewish.

    #2113072
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    Rav Kaufman, i dont mean to kauf with you, but what you are saying is what secular historians say, who KNOW NOTHING OF BASIC JEWISH LAW OR CULTURE, but yet they feel the right to talk about jewish history!
    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FORCED CONVERSION – PERIOD! IT DOESNT WORK!
    Yochanan did NOT convert the inhabitants of Edom (SEE BELOW**), but rather forcibly ENSLAVED (which is worse? idk….) them, which is fine in Jewish law. The Gemara says MANY times that Herod and his family were SLAVES!
    From a secular historians perspective, enslavement LOOKS like forced conversion – forced Milah and forced following of commandments – but to say “forced conversion” is simply a LIE and a perversion of jewish law and culture, instead say “forced enslavement”.

    (**who were NOT edomim, btw, as the Assyrians had mixed EVERYONE up centuries earlier. The real Edomim were moved to a province in modern Turkey which the Assyrians called Idumea. From there, refugees during the Trojan war (which is controversial itself) moved into Europe, all over – like all Phoenicians who founded European civilization, but specifically founded the city of Rome (Remus and Romulus – sons of RED Mars))

    #2113117
    Avi K
    Participant

    Hordus’ father was an Idumean. However, his mother was a Nabatean Arab. Unless she converted, that would make him a gentile.

    #2113146

    I think Yohanan Hurkanos converted Idumeans, whoever they were at a time, then Alexander Yannai and his brothers before him relied more and more on Idumeans for military support. Alexander also conquered and converted Greek cities in Yehuda and and Transjordan. Note that we have kosher converts at that time, not all were fake (Shemaya, Avtalyon). Alexander made Antipater, Herod’s father, a governor. Antipater played an intermediate when Alexander’s sons, Aristobolus and Hyrcanus, invited Pompey to resolve their competing claims to malchut. Antipater was mostly in charge with Hyrcanus being nominally a king (source: Berel Wein’s book).

    Does the fact that Rabbis criticized these conversions made them invalid? Were they treated as sofek as Samaritans? Anyone has sources for that? Bava Basra seems to treat him as ben eved, that would make him disqualified for malchut.

    #2113173
    FrumStatistician
    Participant

    I once heard from a Frum historian that Yochanan Hyrkanos conquered and then enslaved the Idumeans and made them all Avodim C’Naanim. However, they allowed them to maintain some self rule. Hordus’ father Antipater was the ruler of the Idumeans, but still technically a halachic Eved.

    Therefore Hordus was an Eved in Halacha but was viewed by the Romans as being of Noble/Ruling stock. As such when he took over he was able to get Roman support, but when all is said and done, Halachically he was an Eved.

    #2113233
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    Tosfos in yevamos 47b asks: how come he wasnt automatically freed as soon as he forcibly became king? since a freed slave becomes a jew, he should be kosher? Answer: the owners must have not given up hope, and assumed that perhaps his haughtiness would bring his downfall. Who were his owners, if all the Hasmoneans were all killed? Answer: every jew has inheritors, no matter how far back you have to go.

    #2113283

    Chaylev,
    this is an interesting tosfos, but historically speaking Yidden at the time did not learn tosfos, But the logic is relevant: one might assume that the owners gave hope already for Antipater, who might have been haughtly inside, but politically astute – stayed in the secondary position. Even Herod himself was very sensitive politically – he did things for Jews and for Romans, so we are talking about owners not being despaired about like fifty years. Imagine if Qaddafi were your slave – do you think you would not have an yiush for 40+ years he was in power?

    #2113307
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Isn’t there a Mishnah in chagigah that says the chachamim told hurdos not to cry because he’s a brother (i know it was to make him feel better, but wasn’t there something that his mother was Jewish)

    #2113386
    Ray Kaufman
    Participant

    Alexander Yanai was both the Cohen Gadol and the Melech. If he said the conversion was valid, it was.

    #2113450
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    coffee,

    It’s in Sotah (41a) and refers to Agrippas, grandson of Hurdus.

    #2113458
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    @coffe addict
    i wanna cry over how close you are. The rabbis told Agripas, his grandson, not to cry because he is “our brother in commandments” – in other words, a slave is still better than a goy. But, they were wrong for pandering to him in a way which against halacha. Rashi says his Agrippas’ mother was jewish, but as tosfos (yevamos 47b) asks, then there should have been no problem with him being a leader, so Hordus’ wife must have not been jewish.

    #2113459
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    @rav kaufman
    first of all yannai was the son of the one who enslaved them (although according to abaye, yannai was yochanan, but it seems rava was right that yannai (yonasan) was the son of yochanan who enslaved them).
    About him being Cohen Gadol, he was halachically pasul for kehuna because his mother was captured during the wars. This was the reason why Yochanan Cohen Gadol became a tzadoki after so many years (after finding out that the rabbis paseled his wife and kids). Yehuda Aristobulus, his first son, died after the first yom kippur, and then Yannai took over and spilled the water on his feet, got pelted by esrogim and crucified the rabbis. Eventually, he realized he was wrong and sold the kehuna gedolah to Martha bas baythus who gave it to her 2nd husband, Yehoshua ben gamla who restored Torah.

    ** – i actually have a perutah from Yannai which says on it in old hebrew “Yehonasan hakohen hagadol vchaver hayehudim”

    #2113483
    MDG
    Participant

    Herrod could not have been freed as a slave because only a master of the slave can free him. Herrod killed all of them, so he retained the halachic status of slave forever.

    #2113521
    ujm
    Participant

    MDG, technically, whoever inherited ownership of Hordus could have freed him.

    #2113540
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    MDG nad ujm, look at tosfos yevamos 47b – if a master gives up hope (and every jew has inheritors [and the possessions of a ger who dies becomes hefker anyway]), then it’s like he’s mafkir him, and hamafkir avdo yatza lcherius – if you are mafkir a slave, he becomes fully jewish

    #2113548
    ujm
    Participant

    Chaylev, what is the Halachic criteria to determine whether an owner of a slave gave to hope?

    #2113556
    Chaylev Halyah
    Participant

    like any other yiush baalim

    #2113696

    again, Antipater was the slave in question and he was not a king, but a powerful king-maker. There was no reason for him to fail given his political talents, so surely his owners had yiush.

    #2113760
    MDG
    Participant

    “MDG, technically, whoever inherited ownership of Hordus could have freed him.”

    Yep, but he killed them all in the house of the Hashmonayim. No heirs.

    #2114055

    MDG, as mentioned above, a Jew always have heirs. If there are no children, you go generation up to children of person’s father and check brothers, then children of grandfather – uncles, then grand-uncles. Thus, everyone has heirs unless someone in the chain is a ger. Then, I believe the property becomes hefker and whoever grabs it, has it. In the case of Hashmonaim, they are kohanim, so there are no gerim there.

    Maybe Cohanim now can join together and claim to themselves the ruins of everything Herod built.

    #2115211
    modern
    Participant

    There were two Agrippas. The first one married a Jewish woman and therefore the kids, including the second Agrippa and the notorious Berenice who had an affair with Titus, were both Jewish.

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