Are We Balei Taiva?
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- This topic has 29 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 3 months ago by anuran.
February 19, 2010 7:05 am at 7:05 am #591261lavdavkaMember
i feel that we have too many restaurants. we fress a whole day all types of gashmiyusdike foods and think we need every kind of foods. and we cannot be satisfied without chinese, mexican, israeli etc.
we’re holding back moshiach. let’s control ourselves. where are our rabbonim on this. looking foward to your response.February 19, 2010 11:16 am at 11:16 am #674390Be HappyParticipant
Lavdavka: “we fress a whole day”
It is up to us to work on ourselves, to be satisfied with less. Many don’t even have the funds to eat out.
I don’t think over indulging will hold up the geuloh. What about our behaviour Bein odom Lchaveiro??
EDITEDFebruary 19, 2010 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #674391PosterMember
lavdavka, lol. How do u know what I do?February 19, 2010 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #674393bored123Participant
lavdafka thanks for your entertaining post. i suggest that you read the news article posted on yeshiva world news yesterday entitled “Maran Harav Shteinman: first do your own tikkun and then worry about others”February 19, 2010 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #674395smartcookieMember
My my my…if our only “sin” would be eating in restaurants…then moshiach would long be here.February 19, 2010 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #674396oomisParticipant
Lavdavka, while I do get the spirit of what you are saying, your concern is misplaced IMO. As far as all types of restaurant foods (Chinese, Mexican, etc) being available, that is contributing enormously to frum Jews not feeling like they are missing out of things that the non-Jews are raving about. I was thrilled when I got to eat my first meal in a kosher Chinese restaurant. I LIKE having a kosher version of Burger King. There is NOTHING wrong with that. It is EXCESS that is the problem, not the fact of something’s existence. If Moshiach isn’t here yet,. I GUARANTEE you it is not because of restaurants. L’havdil, those restaurants are helping our youth remain kosher, so they don’t seek out treif places to get a good egg roll.February 19, 2010 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #674397
that is contributing enormously to frum Jews not feeling like they are missing out of things that the non-Jews are raving about.
what you say is unfortunately true
it is a shame though, of the first order, and a strong indictment of the Jewish people today in general, that frum Jews wish to not miss out on those things the non-Jews are raving about.February 19, 2010 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #674398bombmaniacParticipant
*throws out his food, and stocks up on water salt and bread*February 19, 2010 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #674399oomisParticipant
Feivel, human nature is human nature, and from the very first case in history of someone wanting what one cannot have, until today, people’s nature remains unchanged. At least in this way, they are able to have a kosher outlet for that taivah. I don’t think it is an indictment, as much as an observation. We have to understand that while certain things are assur to us, it is NOT assur to find kosher ways to enjoy those things, without compromising our avodas Hashem. He put us in this world to enjoy it, not to suffer as ascetics, and be deprived of halachically legitimate sources of enjoyment.February 19, 2010 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #674400
I really don’t understand your way of thinking? Why look for machlokes? Should we then all be eating only American food? After all we live in America!!!! How dare we open up Heimisch European Restaurants and Take out? Are you saying there are or were no Jews in China, Mexico, Italy and the like?
Here is a history lesson for you. Jews live all over the world, and there is no reason why Yiddin should not taste the foods from other regions. We don’t need to be narrow minded. In addition there is no reason for people not to make parnasah opening restaurants, it is a means of feeding one’s own family as well. If you choose not to eat out then don’t but don’t judge others. There are way too many double income families who need the help and break just to keep things on an even keel. And that is not called fressing that is called living.February 19, 2010 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #674401YW Moderator-80Member
Oomis human nature is human nature, and the Holy Jewish Nation is the Holy Jewish Nation.
He didn’t say it was Assur to find Kosher ways to seek the entertainments and distractions of the Nations. He said it was a shame.February 19, 2010 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #674402
Nothing wrong with incorporating foods from the whole wide universe into our diets, but pursuing teivos is definitely not in the spirit of Judaism.February 19, 2010 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #674403
It’s not simply a matter of Teivos.
As oomis pointed out, the Abishter called this world Tov M’od. He wants us to enjoy and savor it (l’shaym shamayim and with the aim of increasing our gratitude to the Abishter)
It is a matter of realizing our Kedushah and separating from the Nations, AND their ways, to the extent that we can.
I understand why so many Yidden see nothing wrong with this. Who could blame them? This is the quiet and insidious breakdown in our beautiful Mesorah and heritage, that the wealth of america has quietly hidden from us, even as HaKodeshBorchu has hidden his face from us.
But he revealed His hidden face on Purim!February 19, 2010 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #674404Feif UnParticipant
tomim tihye, I was taught that differently. I was told that there are ways to indulge your tayvos without transgressing anything, and they’re there for a reason – to help you avoid the things that do go against the Torah. For example, if someone has a craving for a cheeseburger, they can go use soy cheese instead of eating treif. We have kosher restaurants to help us avoid the temptations of all the non-kosher restaurants we see around us.February 19, 2010 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #674405SJSinNYCMember
Feivel, if thats the case we should eat Jewish food. What is Jewish food? I assume its not the Eastern European foods people tend to serve on Shabbos now because they didn’t eat that way back when. So what is it?February 19, 2010 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #674406
There is no reason why we can’t try new things as long as it doesn’t go against Torah and Halacha.
EDITEDFebruary 19, 2010 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #674407
Feif Un, do you mean to say that as the non-kosher world creates more varied foods (or perversions thereof), we Jews need to scramble to re-create these items in Kosher form?
Do we not have other ideals to which we devote our time and energy?
I’m all for variety and non-traditional cooking (especially natural!), but to whet our appetites for more temptations seems quite un-Jewish to me.February 19, 2010 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #674408volvieMember
The sentiments expressed by the OP are both legitimate and natural for a Torah Yid.
Something not being assur, does not mean it shoudn’t be avoided. The question is when to avoid what is technically legal by the book, yet against the spirit of the law or tradition or common sense.February 19, 2010 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #674409
Feivel, if thats the case we should eat Jewish food
thats exactly what Rabbi Moshe Wolfson, shlita said.
that as much as possible we should only eat Jewish food
i dont really know what he meant though
i always felt he meant cholent, kugel, kishke, gefilte fish, lox, bagels, whatever and for whatever reason certain foods are generally associated with Jewishness today.
i dont believe he meant we should investigate the history of every food.
but im not really sure what he meant exactly
i dont know what he would say about pizza for example
but he did feel there was such an inyan
he did not mean to poskin this as Halachah
just that it was a good mahalach.
in any case SJ, i wasnt really referring to the practice of eating different foods
more to the practice of eating in restaurants, especially when making a whole production out of it.
[as Rabbi Avigdor Miller,tz’l said: eating is a bodily function as is the opposite of eating. we dont get dressed up and use candlelight to perform that function]February 19, 2010 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #674410YW Moderator-42Moderator
Avraham Avinnu served tongue to his guests. He was the first Jew so we should all eat tongue 😛February 19, 2010 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #674413
The Torah said that the “mana” tasted the way every individual wished it to taste to satisfy each individual. Was that considered taivas?February 20, 2010 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #674414bored123Participant
i like that aries..exactly…there’s nothing wrong with enjoying yourself, people need an outlet sometimes..people who don’t have outlets or who aren’t allowed to have outlets end up burnt out and depressed. but like everything – in moderation.February 21, 2010 2:45 am at 2:45 am #674416
Out of curiosity, do you think the Dor Hamidbar chatted about the various flavors they consumed and constantly devised new ones? Funny to imagine those conversations!
Sometimes I’m jealous of those women- the whole family likes the supper!
Then again, she can’t take credit.
But look where their desire for more tastes led them…February 21, 2010 3:12 am at 3:12 am #674417lesschumrasParticipant
Feivel, I’m reminded of a story a friend of mine once told me.Shortly after he married, he invited his parents ( of Eastern European extraction ) for Shabbos.
His wife, an Italian Jew, prepared a meat lasagna. His parents, aghast, said who serves this for shabbos? She repkied, my family is from Rome and this is what we ate for Shabbos.
The point is, not all Jews eat kugel and chulent and gefilte fish. My brother in law is Iraqi and his Shabbos table is otally diferrentFebruary 21, 2010 3:40 am at 3:40 am #674418HaLeiViParticipant
By reading this thread you can understand why these issues where never quantified. You have here a mix of people ranging from complaining about the restaurant going atmosphere to complete boat missers.
So, Reb lavdavka, if you would see the people you are talking to over here, I don’t think you would have said that so loud.
The Rambam writes that one who indulges in eating is Oiver on Lo Sochlu Al Haddam. However, we don’t find that the Poskim ruled this to the general public. You can find Rabbonim and Rebbes who demanded from their close communities to elevate themselves and not to eat more than they need, and not to be engrossed in food, and so on. But you can’t make one lump sum of all of Klal Yisroel. What for one person might be delving into Gashmius is a fact of life for another.February 21, 2010 4:09 am at 4:09 am #674419Pashuteh YidMember
There are many Chazals that say it is a mitzvah to enjoy what Hashem has given us. Example, one who doesn’t taste every food possible will have to give a din vcheshbon. Also, lo dayecha mah sheasra Torah.
Why should we think the RBSH is angry at us if we enjoy his food? Is that how you treat your kids? When they enjoy a meal at home, you make them feel guilty?
The point is not to overdo it so he forgets what his main job is in this world and gets distracted, and not to make it one’s primary pursuit, so that it interferes with learning and other responsibilities.February 21, 2010 5:04 am at 5:04 am #674420JotharMember
This is a question of prishus, not of halacha, and is not the type of subject to be discussed on a public forum. If you are on the madreiga to limit your foods to simple foods, go for it. but don’t ban others who are not on your madreiga.
What IS assur is all-you-can-eat, which, according to the Ramban, is a violation of Kedoshim tihyu.February 21, 2010 5:17 am at 5:17 am #674421anuranParticipant
Food is food. Good food is good food. We actually eat fewer different kinds of food than people did 100 or even 70 years ago. And in many ways we eat worse with bland, less nutritious drek being the only real choice we are allowed by the (enormous) trans-national conglomerates that control the entire food chain from seed to farmer to factory to market. A couple of really good Jewish writers – Raymond Sokolov and Mark Kurlansky – have written wonderful books on this. Sokolov’s Fading Feast and The American-Jewish Kitchen and Why We Eat What We Eat are great. So are Kurlansky’s Salt: A History of the World and Food of a Younger Land.February 21, 2010 5:27 am at 5:27 am #674422happyOOTerParticipant
Lavdavka, there are vast expanses of land out there (OOT, I should know) with pockets of frum Jews who don’t know from kosher Chinese. They’d have you for Shabbos, and you’d probably enjoy it, even.February 21, 2010 8:26 am at 8:26 am #674424anuranParticipant
A joke that was old when my father heard it from his father…
Two friends were arguing about whose culture was older.
The Chinese guy said “Our culture goes back three thousand unbroken years.”
The Jew said “Ours goes back four thousand!”
“Yeah, and what did your people eat for the first thousand years?”
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