May 2, 2017 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1268811
Thanks golfer!!! Missed it ~ thanks for the headsup 🙂May 2, 2017 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1268808
I am part of a very learned, Yeshiva educated family, including some men who have spent their entire lives learning Torah for most of the day, and finished Shas numerous times. I would say we are Chareidi, but since this word did not exist in the U.S. previous to 10 or 15 years ago, I do not know an accurate definition of that word. You might call us Yeshivish, but even that definition seems to have morphed over the years.
Let’s just say we are quite familiar with and serious about Torah, halacha, and minhagim, and proper practice of all three!! We are by no means people who skirt halacha, or try to modernize Torah in any way!
We are not chassidish, so I can not speak for their hanhagos.
We definitely do not hold that the “dek tich” (fabric veil with which the chassan covers the kallahs face at the “badeken” before the chuppah) needs to be thick. As a matter of fact, if any covering DID obscure the Kallah’s face completely at one of our family weddings, the Mesader Kiddushin had the kallah (or her mother) lift the veil during certain parts of the Chuppah. The Chassan must see who he is marrying, and (if I’m correct) possibly the Eidim must also see!
I do not know the reason for the veil, although it is obviously the minhag at a Jewish wedding, that the Chassan comes in and covers the Kallah’s face in some way. It is my understanding that her face only needs to be partially hidden, which is accomplished even by a moderately sheer, or lacy fabric covering, through which she can definitely see where she is going, but her facial features are not clearly defined by an onlooker.
Apparently, there is a minhag for the Kallah’s face to be less than visible at this time.
I am wondering if this is part of the well known minhag that for a period the Chassan and Kallah do not see each other before their wedding. I really don’t know. In current times, most Ashkenazim apply this to the entire week before the Chasuna. I may be completely off here – I’m just thinking out loud!
There are Rebbeshe Chasunas, where there is some sort of event the night before the Chasuna, where the Chassan and Kallah definitely see each other. And of course by some Sefardim, there is often a ceremony the night before the Chasuna. In those cases, not seeing each other for the entire week before the Chasuna is obviously not the accepted practice.
Perhaps there is merit to the idea that other men should not look at the Kallah. I believe that there is a gemara that suggests that when the men are being misamayach the Kallah – which is a mitzvah, (kaytzad merakdim lifnei haKallah) the men are supposed to look at the Kallah’s “crown” or other headpiece, in order to avoid gazing straight at the Kallah’s face.
In some circumstances, and at many weddings that I attended in Eretz Yisroel, the Chassan was escorted straight from the “badeken” (covering procedure), directly to the chuppah, with the Kallah following shortly behind. Often the Chuppah took place right outside the wedding location, and there was no aisle for anyone to walk down. There were no stops at a restroom, at the Kallah’s preparation room, or any place else. It is quite clear to everyone assembled, that the young woman who was seen and “covered” by the Chassan, is the one who followed him out to the Chuppah.
I suspect that that is how it is supposed to be.
However, at MOST very frum weddings that I have attended here in the U.S., the Kallah definitely goes back to a private place to “straighten herself up” a bit for the Chuppah. Additionally, there is a period between the badeken and the Chuppah, where all the guests have to go from the room where the badeken was, to the room where the Chuppah will take place. It can be quite a few minutes before all the guests are SEATED, and the Chassan begins to walk to the Chupah. The Chassan – and the Kallah – have to wait somewhere. If the purpose of the badeken is to insure that the Chassan identifies his Kallah, confirming that the he knows exactly who he is marrying, that goal is then undone, because there is much opportunity for the Kallah to be exchanged during that time!!
Perhaps that is why the Litvish Roshei Yeshiva who were Mesader at the weddings in my family were makpid that the veil be lifted, if the Chassan or the Eidim could not really identify the kallah. Regardless, it was a lot less traumatic for the kallah to be able to see where she was going. And it was not in the slightest bit considered a minimizing of any sort of tznius or anything of the like.
Oif Simchos!May 2, 2017 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1268844ExcellenceParticipant
Forget the wedding veils… Sheitels!
If the sheitel is so lifelike that it looks just like real hair, then it looks like the wife is not even covering her hair. The high level rebbeim and tzadikim warn what will happen to her. Upstairs.
Meaning, she will be going Downstairs….May 2, 2017 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #1268848
There are also high level rabbonim tzaddikim who say the opposite and a beautiful sheitel can elevate a woman.May 2, 2017 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #1268851
Meanwhile, non-Jewish women everywhere continue to search for a wig that can realistically fool people.May 2, 2017 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1268863
I don’t get it. What happened to my post?
I said that some rabbonim and tzaddikim are pro-beautiful-sheitels.
Like Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson of blessed memory 💖May 2, 2017 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #1268872
Also, single Jewish women with hair loss.May 3, 2017 7:18 am at 7:18 am #1268928WinnieThePoohParticipant
Ever hear of a washing machine/dry cleaning? Nurses wear white, and their clothing is not meant to be worn once and thrown away.
Today dressing in white seems impractical, but actually, white used to be the default color -especially for babies/little kids, since it was easier to wash with bleach; color-fast detergents are a relatively new invention. Also, I think certain dyes, depending on the culture, were reserved for the ruling class.May 3, 2017 8:58 am at 8:58 am #1268921
There are differing opinions regarding this topic. Before you heap ugly “blessings” on women who cover their hair with human hair sheitels:
First of all, there are two topics.
- a woman’s requirement to cover her hair, because sa’ar b’isha erva, and
- peripherally related the issue of tznius in general.
Regarding the first issue:
Some (significant poskim) are of the opinion that as long as the woman’s OWN hair is fully covered, it does not matter with what it is covered. It can be a hat with full coverage, an inverted garbage can, or a wig – even of human hair. Obviously there are those that disagree. There are many teshuvos that deal with this issue.
The following information is taken from an article I read, written by Rabbi Yair Hoffman:
Based on a Rashi in Bechoros, wearing hair that comes from another woman is referred to as “Peah Nochris”, and in other places, Rashi and Meiri clearly explain a gemora on this topic, stating that the wig was worn for reasons of beauty: so she would appear to have more hair.
The Rema permits saying the shema in front of a woman wearing a human hair wig, and the Mishna Berura explains that it is because a wig is not s’ar b’isha erva. Most Ashkenazic poskim follow this opinion, (Igros Moshe Even HaEzer Vol. II #12.)
Although Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yabia Omer V EH 5:4), and Rav Chaim Palaji (Ruach Chaim EH 21) follow a stringent view, forbidding the wearing of wigs for Sefardic women, the Kaf haChaim (OC 75:19), Mishpetai Uziel (EH Mahadurah Tanina #74), and Yaskil Avdi (Vol. VII EH #16), all prominent Sefardi Poskim also permit the wig.
There is further discussion among poskim regarding the use of a woman’s own hair for a wig! (permitted by some noteworthy poskim).
Therefore your statement that if the sheitel is so lifelike…… it [is] like the wife is not even covering her hair, is not necessarily true, and instead of inspiring people to increase their level of yiras shomayim, it can Chas V’sholom cause them to develop negativity and resistance to keeping mitzvos.
Regarding the second issue;
A woman of virtue is one who conducts herself with Tznius. That means she limits her outer appearance, in order to enhance her essence, which is the Real self. Another factor that must be taken in to consideration, is that a man has many restrictions on deliberately looking at a woman who is not his wife. There are specific parts of the body which are called erva, and a man may not see those parts of a woman if they are uncovered.
Furthermore, a Jewish man may not deliberately “gaze” at a woman, and this is a severe mandate. A woman must be conscious and respectful of this, and has a responsibility to assist men in this area, due to the concept of “lifnei iver lo siten michshol”. Do not put a stumbling block in front of one who is blind. Therefore clothing or behavior of any type, that is alluring, attention getting, or otherwise provocative is indeed forbidden, despite what is covered. If a woman walks or talks in a provocative way, she is held accountable, regardless of what is covered. If a wig is PROVOCATIVE, it is assur, despite what it is made of!
Even among communities that follow the poskim who allow sheitels that look like hair; different communities do have different standards of what is considered acceptable:
A wig that which is fine in one community, is considered long in another. Regardless, most women know, or can easily be made aware, of what is considered pretty vs. what is provocative.. Provocation is NEVER acceptable.
There is a difference between attractive vs. attracting.May 3, 2017 9:48 am at 9:48 am #1269034
Some women are just born with a provocative face.May 3, 2017 10:27 am at 10:27 am #1269062YW Moderator-29 👨💻Moderator
Excellence, are you related, by some chance, to Sam Klein?May 3, 2017 10:28 am at 10:28 am #1269063
There’s a difference between a wig that has human hair and a wig that is virtually impossible to tell it is a wig. The latter is surely assur l’chol hadeios.May 3, 2017 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1269073
The latter is surely assur l’chol hadeios.
That is surely incorrect.May 3, 2017 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #1269486
Falling for troll comment:
Pretty is not provocative.
Facial expressions, or overdone make-up can be.May 3, 2017 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1269523
No it is not “assur l’chol hadeios”, Joseph.
You are making an absolute statement. And it simply is not so.
There are Rabbanim who hold they are assur. And there are many, equally qualified, who do not.
I think our comments were both awaiting moderation overnight. If so, you may want to look through my long comment here, for a tiny bit of relevant sources.
Or not.May 3, 2017 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1269618
TA/DY: Please name a single recognizable Posek who permits an eishes ish to publicly wear a wig that’s virtually impossible to tell is a wig, as their only head covering.May 3, 2017 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #1269650
I did not do a comprehensive analysis of Piskei halacha, shailos and teshuvos. But the information that I posted above refers to the Rema, Rav Moshe Feinstein, and the Mishna Berura, who were speaking about a Peah Nochris, which as I explained, is a human hair wig, and they do not qualify their statements with “but it has to be obvious that it is a wig”. Ironically, it is from an article that discusses using one’s OWN hair for a wig. I think it’s kind of obvious that that is going to look real.
It is difficult to prove a negative.
Show me a single recognizable posek who allows women to wear green dresses on Tuesdays.
Everybody knows that one can be machmir, to enhance their yiras shomayim, if that is where they are holding. I am just stating that “assur l’chol hadeios” is not true, regarding the wig looking like human hair.
There are wigs that are rather tame, and look very “fake” to Frum Jews who are accustomed to wigs, but non-Jews are flabbergasted when told that what they are seeing is a wig!
At the other end, there are hairstyles that are provocative, whether attached to the head, or attached to a wig.
Provocative is a different issue. And I assume is “assur l’chol hadeios”, but not because of erva.May 4, 2017 7:10 am at 7:10 am #1269701
I did not ask for a comprehensive analysis. All I asked for was a *single* recognizable Posek. Just one name. And, again, I specifically said more than human hair, even one’s own, which some permit. I referred specifically to a wig that is virtually impossible to tell it’s a wig. So it looks like she’s going out with her own uncovered hair.May 4, 2017 7:20 am at 7:20 am #1269708
Have you stopped beating your wife? Just a simple yes or no answer, please.May 4, 2017 7:42 am at 7:42 am #1269728
That’s incomparable to asking for a single posek – in the world! – that rules as you say.May 4, 2017 7:44 am at 7:44 am #1269730
All I asked for was for a *single* word.May 4, 2017 8:05 am at 8:05 am #1269733
I’ll give you an extra word or two – or however long you desire – to respond to the question – so long you answer it.May 4, 2017 8:57 am at 8:57 am #1269737
It was a yes or no question.
If you retract tour qualifications, go back and read the “comprehensive analysis”.May 4, 2017 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #1269910
TA complained he didn’t do a comprehensive analysis, so I told him that I didn’t ask him to provide one. He referred to stam a wig that contains human hair whereas I’m referring to a wig that makes it seem like no wig is being worn.
I didn’t dictate to you a multiple choice set of answers you must choose from so your comparison is off base.May 4, 2017 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1269985a maminParticipant
@Thinking allowed: FYI for the event in some Chasidic dynasties they have an event the night before the wedding, where the Chusen and Kallah do not see each other. The women and men are in different rooms.
It is in the Sqver dynasty.May 4, 2017 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1270023
It’s not the mismatched hair to person that makes wigs look like wigs. (That could be a perm or a dye job.) It’s the way the hair lies on the head.
And about non-Jews not seeing wigs, I think it is possible that they are just being polite in some cases. Outside of the Jewish world, wearing a wig is often a secret.May 4, 2017 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1270026
TY Daas Yochid for your use of that question. I never found a use for it until now!!!May 4, 2017 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #1270044
Whatever gimmicks used to make the wig indistinguishable from her bare uncovered head, the point is if the public will see her as though she’s in public with an uncovered head, the issue I mentioned above persists.May 4, 2017 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #1270045cantthinkoffancyusernameParticipant
I am not sure you are right… I understood it’s like mitzva tanz between chosson and kallah.
The event is known as “Chosson Mool” (read it like cool). The kallah gets dressed up in a nice dress (just as in sheva brachos). She stands and holds onto a long thick gartel, and he walks/dances/runs while holding on to the other end.May 4, 2017 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1270081
The only thing that can make a wig indistinguishable from her hair is some duct tape around the hairline and some more around the middle of the head.
Or maybe some people need new glasses.May 4, 2017 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1270082
erroneous post: replied to wrong comment!
Can someone direct me to advice on how to edit a post, if I realize I Replied to the wrong comment. Or how to edit in generalMay 4, 2017 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1270086
I once thought it was the First time that they meet, because it says “Nohagim LirOs Hakalla lifnei Hachasuna”. But if the skver minhag is as you say, a mamin, thank you for the information. It’s best that information I post is accurate. The girl I knew was in fact a Skvere ainikel.May 4, 2017 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #1270093
Yes it is possible that they are being polite. But not in my experience:
In one instance, it was people who I knew for a long time. It came up in a class with Jewish and non-Jewish students. Somehow I had become the voice of Torah Judaism. A female frum classmate came in one day wearing a snood or something, and I was asked why she suddenly did! I told them that they have actually never seen her hair!! Her sheitel was the type that looked obvious to a frum person. They really were incredulous! The next time they saw her, they wanted her to show them that it’s a wig, which of course she couldn’t do in mixed company! I don’t remember exactly how we convinced them: perhaps she showed a female classmate in private…
It also came up once while I was speaking to a police officer upstate, who has seen scores of Orthodox Jewish women, and asked me why “Hasidic” women cover their hair. We were discussing what he perceived as Orthodox women being treated unequally or oppressively in terms of [tznius]. He had no idea that most Orthodox, Torah observant women cover their hair – Hasidic or not! This conversation took place about 21 years ago… Frum women were not wearing custom, long, loose wigs.May 5, 2017 12:09 am at 12:09 am #1270247MRS PLONYParticipant
Um, can we get back to talking (posting) about veils? Or am I being unrealistic?May 5, 2017 12:16 am at 12:16 am #1270257
LOL, Mrs. Plony. I got sucked into a different topic, and I wasted a lot of time doing that!!!
I’m done. There’s no point anyway. Obviously, some people don’t understand what I wrote, and don’t really want to!
Back to veils it is!May 7, 2017 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1271107a maminParticipant
@cant think of fancy user name: They do Mitzva tans without seeing each other.May 7, 2017 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1271231
Veils are like masks.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.