Weird, but I don't know if this has any halachic implication

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  • #609114

    Vogue
    Member

    So, basically, I am not machbid on Chalav Yisrael when I am in the united states. Meaning, I will eat a pint of ben and jerrys ice cream, and enjoy it without feeling guilty.

    Unfortunately, for some weird reason, every time I drink Chalav Stam milk, I get some sort of reaction to it, but when I drink Chalav Yisrael milk, I do not get the awful reaction. So, today, I had my mom buy me chalav yisrael milk. Are there any halachic implications to this? I feel like I am not the only one in that type of situation.

    #1146883

    Sam2
    Participant

    Guilt? I can’t see any reason that there would be a physical reaction to Chalav Stam as opposed to CY unless it’s psychological. Halachically, don’t do anything that makes you sick.

    #1146884

    Vogue
    Member

    So then I should be machbid on chalav yisrael on my ice cream as well…

    #1146885

    SaysMe
    Member

    halachic implications to what? To drinking only chalav yisroel milk?

    #1146886

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Holy cow!

    #1146887

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Cholov stam milk has more lactose because it isn’t watered down.

    Alternatively, it has a different effect because it is pig’s milk

    #1146888

    Vogue
    Member

    I don’t think its exactly 100% pigs milk, otherwise the OU, CRC, or any other hechsher that supervises Chalav Stam products, would be under fire and the supervisors would be put in to cherem (I mean, why would they allow pigs milk into Jewish homes by giving, say, an OU-D).

    Halachic implications to only drinking Chalav Yisrael milk, but eating chalav stam everything else.

    #1146889

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t think its exactly 100% pigs milk, otherwise the OU, CRC, or any other hechsher that supervises Chalav Stam products, would be under fire and the supervisors would be put in to cherem (I mean, why would they allow pigs milk into Jewish homes by giving, say, an OU-D).

    Ask them that question. Don’t ask me.

    #1146890

    WIY
    Member

    Wow. I never knew they still put in pigs milk. I have a feeling this belongs in a different current thread.

    #1146891

    Sam2
    Participant

    Vogue: No. No difference. If you keep Chalav Stam, you should keep it for everything. Maybe there’s a difference between using Chalav Stam powdered milk, but any product that uses actual Chalav Stam milk is the exact same Halachically as a glass of Chalav Stam milk.

    #1146892

    truthsharer
    Member

    PBA,

    Obviously it depends on how much pigs milk or if it was put in on purpose. I think most organizations, allow up to 50% pigs milk. That’s why the CS milk is creamier and lasts longer than CY milk, the mixing of cow and pigs milk together results in a chemical reaction to the lactic acid and due to the homogenization of the milk mixture results in a different status. Once it’s homogenized, it might not halachically be considered milk and that’s why some other kashrus organizations, specifically the Chazir-K, will even allow 100% homogenized pigs milk. However, most people are noheig not like the Chazir-K.

    #1146893

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    You are the only one I know of in this situation.

    #1146894

    tro11
    Member

    You are the only one I know of in this situation.

    No, it happens to me too! Whenever I drink cholov stam my left ankle swells. (Except when I eat Haagen Dazs ice cream). It’s soooo weird.

    #1146895

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think Goq’s right. It’s not the gezeirah of cholov aku”m, it’s the treifah issue.

    #1146896

    Vogue
    Member

    Yeah, and I had to convince my mom I was just experimenting with the Chalav Yisrael milk so that she would buy it, and I said my experiment worked, so now I will have to buy either chalav Yisrael milk, or no milk for the rest of eternity, although, I can still eat Ben and Jerry’s or any other kosher chalav stan ice cream and I will be fine.

    #1146897

    SaysMe
    Member

    vogue- to answer your q, no you don’t have to now only use chalava yisroel everything

    #1146898

    Vogue
    Member

    kk, I figured.

    #1146899

    big deal
    Participant

    Ive heard the same thing happen to kids on baby formula. For instance reg milk based similac and the chalav yisroel one

    #1146900

    Vogue
    Member

    yup 🙂

    #1146902

    Nechomah
    Participant

    Or else you can just come to EY and get your B&J’s here, since I believe it is C”Y.

    #1146903

    ShalomToYou
    Member

    I don’t understand how in this day and age, when we have so much Kosher Mehadrin food to fress, people still need to eat chalav stam.

    #1146904

    Ðash®
    Participant

    I don’t understand how in this day and age, when we have so much Kosher Mehadrin food to fress, people still need to eat chalav stam.

    It’s about the quality, not quantity.

    #1146905

    tefillin rabbi
    Participant

    Only 3-4 flavors of B&J ice cream are CY. (I think under Belz.) The rest are under the OU, if I recall correctly, and state that they are not CY.

    As far as I’m aware it is illegal to add anything other than cows milk to milk in the US and hence the basis for Rav Moshe’s heter for “chalav company”, which is generally referred to as chalav stam. (On the other hand, even according to Rav Moshe, it is assur to buy unsupervised milk directly for a farmer.)

    #1146906

    kotel613
    Participant

    I believe that there is something to it. Some cows will develope a disease called “bloat” which can be fatal. The veterinarian will perform an operation on these cows. According to the OK website “There is a medical operation performed on cows that punctures the fourth stomach wall, or abomasum, rendering the animals and their milk not kosher. Mashgichim have to ascertain that these cows are separated from the general population during milking. (This is a concern for chalav stam as well; how we address it there is beyond the scope of the present article.) Before our most recent production of chalav Yisrael, we had Rabbi Dovid Steigman, an OK Rabbinic Coordinator who is also an expert shochet, inspect the animals to insure that no operations had been performed on them.

    My mother-in-law, who was raised catholic (my husband a’h was a ger) can only drink ‘Jewish Milk”. (By the way, we had discovered that she had decended from Marranos on her mother’s side…)

    #1146907

    MorahRach
    Member

    They don’t put pigs milk in with cows milk in the US.

    #1146908

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    They don’t put pigs milk in with cows milk in the US.

    That’s right. They put in the pig’s milk in Mexico and then export it to the US.

    #1146909

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    They don’t put pigs milk in with cows milk in the US.

    Of course not. They just put horse meat in all the beef. But they would never have the gall to put horse milk in the cow milk. Because they know that the jews buy it and that we can’t drink horse milk. Maybe that’s why.

    #1146910

    oomis
    Participant

    That’s right. They put in the pig’s milk in Mexico and then export it to the US. “

    Is this potentially considered loshon hara/ motzi shem ra?

    100% USDA Grade A milk is not permitted to contain anything other than cow’s milk. In any case, if one is makpid to only drink cholov Yisroel, he/she should not be eating products that are milchig but come from cholov stam. If you like ben and Jerry’s (who doesn’t?) and are eating it, then you are not makpid in Cholov Yisroel Not judging you, and also I don’t believe you are getting stomach aches from cholov stam. If it happens when you drink or eat CH”S products here in the USA, maybe something the cows are eating here is a slightly different version of the grains fed where you live, and it affects the structure of the milk, resulting in the reaction you describe.

    When my daughter nurses the baby, if she has first eaten broccoli or cauliflower or the like, the baby is fussier than if she ate other things that are not gassy foods. Why should it be any different with cow’s milk?

    #1146911

    Geordie613
    Participant

    kotel613 is right. Bloat is treated in the UK (i don’t know about the US) with medication, and therefore there is no problem. It is a problem with imported meat from Argentina for example, where a farmer just lightly punctures the stomach wall to let out the air. This renders the animal treif and is almost undetectable. For this reason, many kashrus organisations have cutback on their imported, and cheaper, meat.

    As to the OP, it may be your imagination?

    #1146912

    daniela
    Member

    “100% USDA Grade A milk is not permitted to contain anything other than cow’s milk.”

    If you are telling us that we should not be concerned because we do not want or like horse milk or treifa milk and that if there were any, it is bitul, and even if we were to buy a carton where it’s not nullified, we acted correctly by buying USDA certified milk and it has a presumption of being kosher and we go by the majority since the very vast majority of cartons are fine, I agree with you. I do not agree on your remark of lashon hara / motzi shem ra — which, however, you do not qualify as slander, thus it appears you too think there is truth to it.

    #1146913

    charliehall
    Participant

    “it has a different effect because it is pig’s milk”

    There is no pig’s milk or horse’s milk sold in the United States. Most dairy farms do not have any pigs or horses at all! It is illegal to put any milk from any animal other than a cow, sheep, or goat into any product that is transported across state lines for sale in the United States, and if anyone ever tried to do that they would get caught and it would cause a major scandal. In fact, despite draconian inspections that are far more frequent and strict than the supervision provided by the major kashrut agencies to food processors that don’t sell meat, there has never been such a scandal. There ARE a few farms that sell camel’s milk, but usually you have to buy it on the farm and it is clearly labeled.

    Milk DOES require rabbinic supervision, as all milk sold in the US contains nutritional supplements (at least Vitamin D). And it needs to be pasteurized unless you enjoy eating bacteria culture media. About 15 years ago, one dairy in the Northeast decided to “go organic” and added a nutritional supplement from shark tissue. It is the only time I have ever seen milk that was actually non-kosher in the US. Their major competitor attacked their loss of kashrut certification in television and radio ads!

    If you are getting sick from milk, consider that you might be lactose intolerant. The Lactaid brand and similar knockoffs might work for you. (There is even Lactaid ice cream.) They are kosher chalav stam.

    Now, if anyone can explain why we are so worried about chalav Yisrael when it is at most a d’rabbanan, but ignore yashan even though it is a d’oratia….

    #1146914

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There is no pig’s milk or horse’s milk sold in the United States. Most dairy farms do not have any pigs or horses at all! It is illegal to put any milk from any animal other than a cow, sheep, or goat into any product that is transported across state lines for sale in the United States, and if anyone ever tried to do that they would get caught and it would cause a major scandal. In fact, despite draconian inspections that are far more frequent and strict than the supervision provided by the major kashrut agencies to food processors that don’t sell meat, there has never been such a scandal.

    Uhhuh, uhhuh. And the beef doesn’t have any horse meat either. It is illegal and there would be a big scandal if they were caught. Yup.

    #1146915

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Milk DOES require rabbinic supervision, as all milk sold in the US contains nutritional supplements (at least Vitamin D).

    I have never heard this before. I buy milk without a hechsher. I don’t even like milk.

    #1146916

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The horse meat scandal was in the UK, not the US

    #1146917

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And that 40% of fish is mislabeled as other fish.

    #1146918

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You cant mislabel salmon , its the only fish that looks like that (The reddishness)

    #1146919

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s right. They put in the pig’s milk in Mexico and then export it to the US.

    Is this potentially considered loshon hara/ motzi shem ra?

    I suppose if someone might take my comment 100% literally, it would be.

    #1146920

    truthsharer
    Member

    In the USA the dairies know they will get caught if they cheat. The number one consumer if milk are little kids. That means that there is usually more oversight and punishments than a regular industry.

    #1146921

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Charlie hall,

    Milk in the us does not need a hashgacha (unless you’re looking for cy obviously). The supplements are batul.

    #1146922

    90% of U.S fish is imported, and less than 2% are inspected for fraud. In big cities like NYC it’s very common for restaurants or stores to sell cheap fish that look similar to an expensive one and market them as such. Definitely geneivas daas.

    #1146923

    oomis
    Participant

    I do not agree on your remark of lashon hara / motzi shem ra — which, however, you do not qualify as slander, thus it appears you too think there is truth to it. ”

    You mistake my intention. I was questioning whether or not it is L”H/M”ShR to make a statement that pig milk is mixed into chalav stamin the US. I do not believe for one second that pig milk is mixed in with cow’s milk in the USA and then sold as cow’s milk. That has nothing to do however, with my feeling that if one holds by C”Y they should do so across the board.

    #1146924

    Oomis, why does it have nothing to do with being machmir across the board for all dairy? If there’s no safek anymore, go for it!

    #1146925

    truthsharer
    Member

    Milk sold in the USA is tested. If you ever see a milk truck, it will have vials with milk samples from all the milk sources.

    #1146926

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Milk sold in the USA is tested.

    I don’t think they are testing it for which animal it comes from.

    #1146927

    SaysMe
    Member

    i know some people who actually only use chalav yisrael milk, but cholov stam butter and cheese. I never exactly understood it. The butter heter i heard. Is cheese the same?

    Also, the cows in america are usually injected to increase milk production. Maybe thats what you’re sensitive too. I think i’ve heard of that happening before. In ice cream, perhaps the other ingredients or processing make it bother you less.

    #1146928

    truthsharer
    Member

    Pba, they actually do. I sat through a speech regarding the protection afforded to milk consumers by the government. It’s probably the only industry where you can trust government regulations.

    #1146930

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Vogue – I want to ensure that you realize that everyone is joking here. Pig milk is not kosher. Due to strict milking laws, the milk in the US is free of other milk. That is why people are technically allowed to drink Cholov Stam.

    I want to reiterate this for anyone who may read this thread and take it seriously:

    1. PIG milk is not kosher.

    2. Cholov Stam milk has no pig milk mixed in it if regulated by the USDA.

    Carry on, everyone else. 🙂

    #1146931

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Torah: I have no idea how you can be so confident that there is no Pigs milk. If the fish is mislabeled, and the meat is mislabeled, and nobody even cares–what makes you think milk is different.

    Besides, who says pigs aren’t kosher. I saw one and it showed me its cloven hooves.

    #1146932

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Popa: It could be (and people care). Has it ever happened?

    Right, the hooves are the kosher part.

    #1146933

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    pba- the meat and the fish they have a benefit of mislabeling because the replacements are cheaper. Cows milk is the cheapest milk available in the US, so replacing it with something else wouldn’t be a smart business move. In the middle east, camels milk is widely available and is cheap. That’s not the case in the US.

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