July 13, 2011 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #597937
As we wipe away our tears, I know that some of us will be looking, as we always do, for the lesson Hashem wants us to learn from such tragedy. Should we be more careful about lashon hara? Absolutely. Should we be more strict about how we comport ourselves in shul? Undoubtedly. Should we dress and act in a more tzniusdik manner? likely so. But the two things I will take from this are the following.
1. We may make decisions as parents to let our children out of our sight. It will happen eventually, if not at 9 years old then at 11, or 13. I won’t condemn the parents as some have. I’m not in their shoes, and besides, a predator can find a way to attack someone older, too. But we can and we must take all steps necessary to streetproof our kids, and take advice from police and others on how to do so. A yarmulke and a white shirt is not a guarantee of temimus, and a uniformed non jew is not a person to be shunned in need because he or she is not one of us.
2. As much as it pains us to admit it, we need to realize that the scourge that makes adults target children exists in our community. Call it evil, call it sickness, call it influence from the outside world, call it a product of an insular community; I don’t care to argue, and don’t know if one or all of those elements is the reason for it. I DO know that we can only fight it if we are aware of it and we don’t turn a blind eye to it, minimize it, or wish it away. It exists, and we need to be effective in uprooting it and guarding against it. Effectiveness is all that matters in this issue, as letza’arenu experience demonstrates to us all.July 13, 2011 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #786973
Kudos to you for putting it out there so clearly. I agree completely. Regrets are worthless, Take your heads out of the sand and be pro-active. Start protecting the children, think only about the children and how to keep them safe and stop worrying so much about the adults who should know better.July 13, 2011 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #786976
I think you are treading on very sensitive issues by making your statements. I have children Baruch Hashem, and no matter how many times you can tell them these things, when it actually comes down to it, they get lost! No one could be properly prepared for this, as much as you think everything is in our hands it is NOT!!! My heart rending cries go out for the family of this boy, this innocent neshoma who is a korbon for Klal Yisroel!! Your attitude sounds too much like things are in our hands!They are not! We have to teach our children and not bury our faces in the sand, BUT you must realize we are in the hands of the Rebonei Shel Olam!!We need to PRAY that we don’t have any more tzoros in Klal Yisroel! Stop shifting blame!! It’s highly insensitive to those involved!July 13, 2011 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #786978rivky101Member
we should learn that from such a gr8 boy he brought togheter ???” everybody worked toghterJuly 13, 2011 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #786979
a mamin – blame??? How on earth did you read blame into my comments? read them again. I’m specifically asking about lessons we can draw, not blame for what has happened. Blame is useless. Blame is for people who are more interested in pointing a finger than in solving a problem. Hakodosh Boruch Hu is the dayan and he will blame and judge. He doesn’t need me or you to do it for him. What he needs us to do is our own hishtadlus, and in this respect I come to your final comments. Yes, we are in the hands of the ribono shel olom. But in his gift of Torah he also gave us a clear instruction. Ein Somchin Al Hanes. If there is some tachlis that we can make happen it is our obligation to do so with the seichel and the means Hashem has given us.July 13, 2011 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #786980
And by the way, mamin, I have 4 of my own. My eldest was gravely ill a few years back and his life was in the balance so I know unfortunately all too well what it means to ask for HB’H’s hashgocho protis in such a situation. At the same time I had to make sure he was in the best hospital with the best surgeons and the best care in the WORLD for his illness. I had to make decisions on surgery and learn how to care for him from the nurses. I can tell you with almost absolute certainty that had we not done our hishtadlus my son would most likely have died. Boruch Hashem we needed to act and that is exactly what we did. With HB’H’s help, with the help of our family, our kehila, and lots of davening, my son is healthy today ba’h.July 13, 2011 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #786981
The messages gleaned from this tragedy will be as varied as the people who heard about the tragedy. The main thing is to understand that there is a message on an individual and communal level and take the appropriate steps in response.July 13, 2011 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #786982oomisParticipant
a mamin, you were a little harsh in your response, IMO. Yichusdik did not sound accusatory as you imply. What Yichusdik said is correct in every way. Although you are correct that Hashem is in charge, we have to put our own efforts into our lives and safety.
If you jump off a building, Hashem probably will allow you to break your neck. If a young child is allowed to walk home from camp, it may or may not be a good idea and he may or may not get into difficulty. In this case it unfortunately had a tragic ending. It could have easily gone the other way, too, where he would have safely found his way and met up with his mother. We cannot comprehend why this terrible tragedy occurred, but there is no question that as parents we are obliged to talk to our kids and spell out b’feirush that there are vildeh chayehs out there, sometimes wolves in sheep’s clothing (apologies to Wolfish Musings)who appear kind and nice, but are still dangerous.
While we don’t want to turn our kids into terrified little wusses, neither can we ignore the obvious. Sometimes monsters have pleasant faces. A stranger is someone you and your family do not know very well, and you don’t go ANYWHERE with ANYONE. Prayer is a good thing, but prayer alone will not teach our kids the skills they need to be street smart.July 13, 2011 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #786983SilentOneMember
Does anyone know how to donate money for the family? – Not that money can take away one miniscule fraction of their pain, but it might help get them avoid having financial crisis (father can’t work during Shiva and he might need to be home more to help out and unable to get to work) on top of their grief.July 13, 2011 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #786984
The bottom line is that you can’t trust strangers and you don’t keep secrets from Mommy because strangers are not the only “evil” people out there, they can also be people you know. And I am going to say loud and clear and it is up to the mods if they let it through or not and I hope they do. If the message is that is told over and over again that you are not to go to the police we will never be able to protect little kids like “Leiby” even though we know who the perps are!
It is NOT logical that little Leiby is the first victim he went after. He would NOT have been so brave to take a child back to his own home where his neighbors and parents could have seen if this was his first offense. Furthermore the police said they are not sure if “they exchanged words” in the video. That would mean that Leiby knew him and just followed him to his car. What does that tell you? That would tell you that Leiby knew him, and that wasn’t the first time they met. It would also suggest that it was Levi that pushed Leiby to ask his parents to allow him to walk home alone. AND that he was NOT lost but he purposely walked directly to 18th Ave to meet him.July 14, 2011 12:54 am at 12:54 am #786985Ben LeviParticipant
aries2756: The police have stated that it seems he got lost and asked for directions, they have also stated that it seemed the rotzach did not do anything to the child beforehand.
Personally I heard from an older and wise Rov regarding tragedies that he cannot know for certain what to learn from them as nevuah is botul.
As such I feel that while we personally may not be able to identify what to learn from this horrible tragedy one thing is obvious.
I beleive that there is no case in the last 60 years at least of an ostensibly orthodox man having done such a heinous crime.
Yes, I am aware that people will say that this is different, this man was crazy.
However crazy people did not just come about, they were always here and yet this did not happen. Period.
When a person is found dead the ziknei haeir must bring an egla arufah, when a tragedy occured near an Amora chazal tell us that Eliyahu Hanavi did not appear to him for three days since he was held partly responsible that such a tragedy could occur in his vicinty.
We as a whole must look inside of ourselves and ask how is it that such a tragedy could occur in the heart of our community? How could such a thing happen.
YES it does mean that we as a whole have sunk one level and we must use it as a wake up call to examine ourselves.
Lastly I would remark that recently three Gedolei Yisroel were niftar, people said they were old, now that an eight year old little boy has been brutally murdered under circumstances unparelled in history what will we say?July 14, 2011 1:17 am at 1:17 am #786986Sister BearMember
Rav Nosson Weisz wrote an article about how do deal with a tragedy. I got it from aish.com it’s Parshas Chukas under advanced and Mayanot – the title “The Tragedy of Tragedy” here’s a part that I think deals with how to deal with this horrific tragedy:
CAUSE OF INNOCENT DEATHS
Rav Dessler in his eulogy of the Chazon Ish expressed a thought that can be applied as an approach to this problem. When a believer in Divine Providence is witness to a tragedy in which innocent victims lose their lives, his reaction should inspire him to follow a certain train of logic:
Step 1: The people who died were deserving of life at least as much as I, if not more. I believe that God runs the world and that He is just. It follows, therefore, that if they suffered such tragic untimely deaths — and I am no better or more deserving than they — that I should also have suffered a similar fate. But I know that I have committed no crime that deserves such severe punishment. Logic therefore dictates that they did not die as a punishment for their sins. But if so where is Divine Justice?
Step 2: As the victims did not lose their lives to atone for their personal sins, and yet as God is just, they must have suffered justly, therefore, it follows that their deaths are an indication that there is something seriously wrong with my society. My society must be infected with the disease of unjustifiable cruelty toward some of its members. I know that the punishments of God are “measure for measure.” In a world run by God, a society that is functioning as it ought, would be protected from senseless evil. Senseless evil that occurs in the outside world is a certain indication that we the Jewish people are practicing senseless evil against each other.
Step 3: It follows that God allowed this tragic event to take place in order to shock us out of our complacency. We should, therefore, assemble for an introspection session and attempt to identify the areas in which we are failing in the fulfillment of our obligations to our fellow Jews and in the observance of our duty towards God.
Step 4: If we do this, than the people who died in the tragedy will not have died in vain. On the other hand, if we remain in our state of complacent slumber, it is we who are responsible for turning their deaths into pointless tragedies, and it is we who will be held responsible for the human waste.
Step 5: This means that we should not focus the brunt of our attention on the natural causes of the tragedy. Every event that occurs in our world even one that is Divinely ordained has some natural cause. We do not live in a world of miracles. When the building collapses it was obviously structurally weak. But it doesn’t follow that the structural weakness was the ultimate cause of the deaths of the victims. God has an infinite number of methods at His disposal, none of them miraculous to insure that weak buildings collapse without harming anyone. No scientific test ever devised could possibly determine that the building had to collapse precisely when it did collapse. The most brilliant engineers would not have been shocked had the floor managed to hold up under pressure through the night or only developed a large crack instead of collapsing outright.
* * *
WHO CAUSED THE TRAGEDY?
Therefore, to focus our attention exclusively on the owners, engineers and licensing authorities as though they were entirely responsible for the tragedy is the ultimate form of cruelty. They may have caused the collapse. God brought on the tragedy. (See Maimonides, “Laws of Fasting,” Chapter 1.)
How can the rest of us go on about our business as usual, satisfied that we have discovered the culprits and solved the problem, expecting to live peacefully on as though nothing had happened?
Such expectations border on heresy. For if I am allowed to live on in peace, and I am no better than the people who perished, than their deaths were totally senseless. Thus I am really saying that God is indifferent to what happens in the world and He doesn’t give a hoot when the innocent suffer. I avoided their fate purely by chance. It was blind luck that placed the victims there at the wrong place and the wrong time. Such a thought must be rejected as anathema as soon as it enters the mind of a true believer.
How can a believer possibly entertain the notion that God allowed a senseless tragedy to afflict His children?
The thought that God works in mysterious ways and we cannot penetrate the workings of Divine Justice, while no doubt perfectly true, is not much better in this case. How can a believer possibly entertain the notion that God allowed a shocking tragedy to afflict His children, the Jewish people, without specifically intending to shock them? Was He asleep?
Therefore, my expectation of a continued peaceful life can only be termed an empty fantasy. The only reason I did not perish along with the victims is because God took mercy on me. I had better wake up and do something.
The cruelty to which Maimonides refers (in Laws of Fasting, chapter 1) is as obvious as it is enormous. If tragedies are indeed warnings, when they are ignored, it is obvious that the need for further warnings has hardly been eliminated. On the contrary, if small tragedies are insufficient to wake us up, greater tragedies are obviously called for.
The ignorance of Divine warnings causes the appearance of an even greater danger on the horizon of Providence, the reaching of the point of no hope, when God abandons His attempts to arouse us from the smugness of our slumbers as beyond His reach. If that time ever arrives, then God forbid, another policy entirely comes into effect, the policy of destruction.
God stated in the clearest terms that He isn’t interested in supporting pointless existence. It was evening it was morning the sixth day (Genesis 1:31) Rashi states regarding this passage: God stipulated, “If Israel accepts the Torah on the sixth day of Sivan, then I am willing to have a world. If not, I see no point in it.”
There is little difference between non-acceptance and non- compliance. A Jewish society that does not concern itself with the purpose of life and focuses the bulk of its energy on maximizing the quality of life in this world — while abandoning spiritual concerns by the wayside and entrusting fellow Jews to the tender mercy of uncaring governments — is a Jewish society that is going nowhere fast. Such a Jewish society is in danger of facing very great tragedies which involve mass annihilation. It is infinitely preferable to heed God’s warnings and wake up.July 14, 2011 3:30 am at 3:30 am #786988
WE are all going to believe what we choose to believe. The truth will eventually come out.July 14, 2011 4:18 am at 4:18 am #786989
CNN is reporting that the family knew Levi Aron and that this was NOT a random encounter.July 14, 2011 4:31 am at 4:31 am #786991DroidMember
aries: CNN.com’s story on this says nothing of that sort. NYC Police Commish Ray Kelly said they did not know each other and never met before.July 14, 2011 4:54 am at 4:54 am #786992
Watch the video with the former police detective. That is exactly what he is saying, Droid.July 14, 2011 8:55 am at 8:55 am #786993morah reynaMember
See the yehiva world film by Norman Blumenthal of Chai Lifeline.July 14, 2011 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #786994A Woman Outside BrooklynParticipant
One of the things we learn from this horrible tragedy is that there are things we just can’t understand. Like why, of all the people Leiby could have asked for directions, did he ask Aron? We’ll never know, but HKBU runs the world. We don’t know whether or not he was forced into the car or got in there on his own.
As a parent, although my children are now older, some of the lessons parents can draw from this are simplistic. NEVER get into a car with a stranger. If you’re lost, go into a store, or ask a policeman for directions. Always have a few quarters, just incase you need to call someone (not that I can think of anymore payphones on streets in the vicinity where this occured).
Hundreds of 9 year olds walk in Boro Park every day, without issue. Generally, it’s a very safe area. Common sense is not a fully developed skill in such a young child. Perhaps one of the greatest tragedies of this whole nightmare is the fact that we have to tell our children “you can’t trust someone just because he looks like a Yid”.July 14, 2011 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #786995
To those who question the emphasis on tznius (which, to the best of my knowledge, wasn’t mentioned ONCE during the levaya): This is the only sin where H’ says He will turn away from us r”l. ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??????.
This is the first tragedy since I joined the CR where I see so many posters feeling that H’ has turned away from us. “I’m so angry. How could He do it?” This year is also the first in my life that I’m seeing frum women and girls wearing tank tops without shame (some with beige clothing underneath!) and very long, flouncy shaitels that make them look like streetwalkers.
I’m not claiming to be H’s secretary, I’m just reading a pasuk in the Torah. There are countless cheshbonos why it had to be Leiby z”l and his family; and pritzus is, unfortunately, not the only aveira of our generation. But I feel we have reached a terribly new low this year davka in this area; not in lashon hora, not in machlokes or other aveiras, but davka in this sin where H’ warns us that He will turn away from us. We need to make a sincere cheshbon hanefesh without negios. May we be zoche to see the first part of the pasuk:
?? ?’ ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????July 14, 2011 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #786996ruxadinMember
In light of the tragic news, I think we have to ask ourselves the following: It was so beautiful that Klal Yisrael came together in a time of crisis (to help with the search/reward money and tehillim), but can we overlook each others’ differences in good times too?July 14, 2011 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #786997
What we should learn, is mishnayos, gemara, chumash (or whatever you are holding by learning) l’iluy nishmaso.July 14, 2011 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #786998
Firstly:Yichusdik:: You misunderstand me. What I felt to be insensitive was ,”I WON’T CONDEMN THE PARENTS AS SOME HAVE” How dare anyone think they are to blame for this?????
Secondly, I also went through an experience with a child, who BARUCH HASHEM came through. The shaliach for this was none other than HAKADUSH BARUCH HU, who planted in us the wisdom , to find the right shaliach!We have our hishtadlus everyday with our lives and our children, but please remember the final say comes from above!!! Yes, we must teach our children, that is our job on this earth but……
Secondly ARIES::: You are so way off!! This child or his family never knew this ROTZEIACH!!By you insinuating that LeibyZ’L purposely walked down to 18th Ave. is horrendous, callous and totally insensitive!! i know you have an agenda ( from previous posts) but THIS IS GOING TOO FAR!!!July 14, 2011 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #787000
msseeker – While I agree, it’s something to work on. I feel that there are so many other things which are more important and it is thrown under the carpet!July 14, 2011 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #787001Legen-daryMember
There is much to learn, and to take upon and change in ourselves.
All deriving from the fact that the ENTIRE community suffered/is suffering from this terrible terrible tradgedy and loss. The pain we are all feeling is real and is MENT FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL to WAKE up and do teshuva…when something as bad as this happens in a community its taught that being that it wasnt some horrific event harming the entire community but one indiviual who took the “hit” for us r’l- we need to realize it COULD have BEEN us- and this pure pure chile had his precious neshama brutally taken away instead of saomething terrible happening to all of us. It is a sign to do teshuva (obviously taking action, learning from it, awareness) but since we were all pained- we are PART of the tzara- we need to make improvements in ourselves…why it happened? we dont know- we are not here to give answers on why- but its so obvious and clear to see- we NEED to fix ourselves, being better jews, bein adam l’chavero and bein adom lamakom! We should never never ever ever hear of such tzasros- and in the zchus that we all make a change in ourselves for the pure neshama taken away from us- we WILL become a better people and bring the geula- and see our proud Leiby again!!July 14, 2011 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #787002
msseeker: You are unfortunately so correct!! It is also unfortunate that there are so many people who can’t see the writing on the wall!!!July 14, 2011 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #787003sm29Participant
Like I said in another thread, we don’t know what the reason is. But We can deffinately do something to turn things around and do something postive. What we each need to do is look at what we each need to work on. Whether it is better Middos, ahavas yisrael, ethics, more kavana in prayer, etc. we can each make a difference. May we improve ourselves in good ways, and may the geula sheleima come soonJuly 14, 2011 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #787004
“I feel that there are so many other things which are more important…”
Such as…? What can be more important than ???? ????? ????? What can be more tragic than ??? ??????? WHat can be better than ?? ?’ ????? ????? ???? ??????July 14, 2011 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #787006
“the emphasis on tznius (which, to the best of my knowledge, wasn’t mentioned ONCE during the levaya)”
Perhaps there is a reason for this “glaring omission”.July 15, 2011 3:02 am at 3:02 am #787007
Perhaps. So let’s go digging for the reason instead of chas veshalom getting rid of our tank tops or TVs.July 15, 2011 6:18 am at 6:18 am #787008mvaksheh HashemMember
The answer to the question we are all asking, as to what should we learn from this (and WHY did this happen) can be found very clearly from the Torah in the war from Amalek. The man who killed Leiby, Z’l acted just like Amalek and was also successful in kidnapping and killing our dear Yehuda ben Nachman, Z’l the SAME way our people died in the war with Amelek. The reason Amalek was able to lure out (or kidnap – through false pretenses) our people and mutilate them like this, was because the Jewish people began to doubt that Hashem was truly among them and therefore quarreled with Him by “putting their complaint in the form of a challenge” (Artscroll commentary on Parshas Beshalach 17 (2-9) regarding the water they awaited. “They should have realized by now that He(Hashem) was their Healer and Provider”. Moshe reminded them that the way to express their needs is through prayer, not insolent challenges. When they did not do this, Amalek attacked and was successful (EXACTLY what we have seen here with Yehuda Z”l – who was the korben to remind of us this principle in the Torah). We must all begin to thank Hashem that only one of us has been taken in this way, and try to stop such events IMMEDIATELY before things get worse, has v’shalom.
But here is the greatest most INSPIRING part of the Parsha which we are seeing repeated today:
After Amalek began to attack (NOW PLEASE – LET’s NOT WAIT TO RESPOND IN THE RIGHT WAY), The Jews began to LEARN TORAH AND PRAY FERVENTLY. Moshe Rabbeinu prayed the most fervently and held up his hands – he did not let them drop in the battle (this is the definition of EMUNA), until finally, Hashem stopped the sun (interrupting the NORMAL way the world runs) and helped them win the war, which IMMEDIATELY PRECEDED the coming of Yisro, who validated the miracles Hashem did for the Jews before Har Sinai.
Our GEULAH – and the ultimate end of Amalek – WILL ONLY COME WHEN WE JOIN AS A NATION TO BELIEVE THAT HASHEM IS WITH US, PRAY TO HIM, AND LEARN HIS TORAH AS WE WERE COMMANDED TO DO!!!.
It’s really not as hard as people think, and I suggest we all start doing our jobs right now. The key to our success is today is to follow in the ways of our forefathers and be like Moshe – DON’T LET YOUR HANDS DOWN. Don’t let the cell phones, computers, and other gadgets distract you into worldly matters. Start praying now – teaching others to learn Torah BCHOL LEVAVECHA – and the geula will come. Hatzlochah and may we merit it soon and in our IMMEDIATE days!July 15, 2011 10:00 am at 10:00 am #787009kapustaParticipant
Instead of pointing fingers at what may have been the reason, lets use this thread for ideas of how we can improve both as a Klal and for each person in their own personal Avodas Hashem.
In Wednesdays Shiur, Rabbi Wallerstein read a story about a young businessman driving his new Jaguar when suddenly someone threw a brick at it. He got out and walked over to a young boy who had thrown it and started yelling. When he calmed down, the boy pointed to someone lying in a heap on the floor; his brother had fallen out of his wheelchair and was to heavy for him to lift on his own. He threw the brick because no one else would stop.
“Hashem threw a brick at us.”
ruxadin, agreed 100%July 15, 2011 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #787010adorableParticipant
Everyone will agree that there was an outpour of chesed and achdus that came out of this. Lets try and keep the achdus. Lets make sure to continue feeling like we are ALL in this world to do the same thing…. to serve Hashem and not get side tracked by the color shirt, hat, ties….July 15, 2011 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #787011
We should learn not to point fingers what was “wrong” but what went “RIGHT”
Everyone went looking for the kid not matter who they were, everyone banded together.
We need to look why its takes a tragety to get everyone to agree on something and do something positive.July 15, 2011 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #787012A Woman Outside BrooklynParticipant
That’s absolutely true, Adorable. As I mentioned elsewhere on YWN, following the terror attack in Mumbai, when the Holtzberg’s Zt”l were killed, there was also tremendous achdus. Unfortunately, it didn’t last very long. And I fear that the same will be true here, even though this is much closer to home, and in many way, even more tragic.July 15, 2011 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #787013adorableParticipant
I dont know what’s “more tragic”….its not so normal and its very tough to get over the tragedy of a baby losing both his parents and that pain will never diminish in his grandparents hearts…. but it did with some of us. I was just thinking bout the music video that Lipa made when they were niftar and I can cry whenever I watch it.July 15, 2011 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #787014
msseeker – “Such as…? What can be more important than ???? ????? ????? What can be more tragic than ??? ??????? WHat can be better than ?? ?’ ????? ????? ???? ??????”
Oh come on, if I would try to post what I’m thinking, it wouldn’t make it through. V’hamayven Yoven!July 15, 2011 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #787015
Oh yeah, let’s focus on the unmentionable horrific sins of less than 0.01% of us instead of making a cheshbon hanefesh what each one of us has to improve.July 15, 2011 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #787016
msseeker – It’s not the amount of people who do terrible sins, it’s the fact that it’s not dealt with. Lots and lots of people sweep these things under the carpet. This transverses from the top to the bottom of the Klal.
Did you ever hear of “Lo Saamod Al Dam Rayech” & “V’artoh Horah Mekirbecha”?!?!July 15, 2011 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #787017
If one person eats cheeseburger that sin only affects that person
However if one person does the other sin he can affect alot of other innocent people and destroy their livesJuly 15, 2011 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #787018ZeesKiteParticipant
I’m a “Big Kid” now. So now I can reflect on my feelings.
In my extremely humble opinion sometimes it’s best to do Vayidom Aharon. Respectfully remaining silent, reflecting and meditating in silence. Words cannot do justice to either comfort or reproach. In such a case, as a tribute to Klal Yisroel, we have all become somewhat mourners. Hence many people have become agitated or disturbed at other peoples attempt to put their own feelings or ideas into words. As Koheles said “A time to be silent…”
ZeesKite was out of order this past week.July 15, 2011 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #787019
“If one person eats cheeseburger that sin only affects that person.”
Wrong. He is metamei a chelek of klal Yisrael. ?? ????? ????? ?? ???. And women who dress pritzusdik, “can affect a lot of other innocent people and destroy their lives”, by being machshil our men and boys and decreasing the kedusha in our machane, about which H’ warns us that He will turn away from us r”l. Why are you people trying to push THIS under the carpet? Can anything bad come out of throwing out tank tops or cutting shaitels down to size? What are you people afraid of? Is it a stirah to pursuing pedophiles? Aderaba, both have the same shoresh: Kedushas Yisrael.July 15, 2011 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #787020WIYMember
Actually, since all of klal Yisroel accepted arvus (responsibility) for each other at Har Sinai, any aveira any Jew does brings down the rest of us. Unlike the non Jews we are 1 nation one family one soul, in Shomayim all of Klal Yisroel is considered one soul and we are responsible for each other. So if one Jew doesn’t keep Shabbos he brings down all Jews. On the same token when we do a Mitzvah we elevate all Jews. Its something to think about before doing an Aveira or Mitzvah.July 15, 2011 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #787021WIYMember
I think the tznius issue is part of a general lowering of standards issue which I believe has a lot to do with how much we are influenced by the non Jewish world. Im pretty sure that a family that doesn’t watch movies, doesn’t read non Jewish newspapers or books and magazines and stays away from non Jewish music and anything else that’s influenced by the non Jewish velt like Disney stuff……will likely have women and girls who dress Tzniusdik. The idea to wear those crazy shaitels does not enter a pure mind, same thing with wearing certain clothing.
Its odd that there seems to be a mistaken double standard in that men have to stay away from all the shmutz and shouldn’t watch movies…but its ok for girls to do so. I know of many “frum” families that don’t let their boys watch movies…but the girls are allowed to and they take the girls to broadway shows and let them read novels magazines…
If you fill a girls head with trash she will view herself as trash and become trashy. Its obvious that non Jewish girls have very low self esteem and think that they should be objects of desire as is promoted by Hollywood and the media that they are so absorbed in. A Jewish girl who is involved with non Jewish media and entertainment will come to the same “conclusion” about herself. We need to guard our senses so that we have pure minds and don’t act like the immoral people of the world.July 17, 2011 3:03 am at 3:03 am #787022
Not only that, but also next to these shiksas our yiddishe techter think they look like nashim tzidkanios.July 17, 2011 4:31 am at 4:31 am #787023just meParticipant
Ah! B”H SOMEONE figured out how to blame a tzar Yisroel on tznius! In my opinion, it isn’t JUST the tznius that is a problem, the problem is a lessening of fighting the Yaitzer Hara on all fronts. For women it is usually tznius, for men (yes, it isn’t only the women–you guys aren’t perfect either. Sorry) it might be sitting in the bais medresh but doing something other than learning or it might be driving like you think you own the road (this often is dangerous not to mention causing a chilul Hasnem). Often, unfortunally, a man doesn’t change his dress but is like a tree that looks good on the outside but is rotten from within, note the way the Monster looked. It is so easy to yell about tzniyus and pritzadike women. While the tzinus level in many communities can be improved, if that is all you look at, you are probably missing a lot.July 17, 2011 6:06 am at 6:06 am #787024
“It is so easy to yell about tzniyus and pritzadike women.”
It is even easier to yell against tzniyus and sticking up for pritzadike women.July 17, 2011 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #787025
Last I checked the prepetrator was a Male and last I checked the victim was also a male.
Exactly how is a male on male crime have anything to do with the issue of tzniutJuly 17, 2011 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #787026
Its easiest to point fingers at everyone and everything else. It helps one avoid making their own cheshbon hanefesh.July 17, 2011 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #787027just meParticipant
msseeker, I am not sticking up for them, I am just tired of people who blame every tzar on ONLY the women. Yes, tzniyus is a problem. I walk down the street and am just amazed at some women but at the same time, I am deal with people in business and some black hat men & tzniyuskic women shock me at what they do and say. Hashem destroyed the world at the time of the mabul because of sins bayn adom l’chavairo. The pasuk says the world was filled with chamas. It doesn’t mention pritzus anywhere.
By saying that everything is caused by lack of tzniyus the writer absolves him/herself of the need to improve. I am just saying that is taking the easy way out. Could it be a lessening of fighting the Yetzer Hara?July 17, 2011 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #787028
Msseeker – “Why are you people trying to push THIS under the carpet?”
Where did you see in his post(s) that he is trying to sweep anything under? It seems that you are trying to sweep things under because when I mentioned there is something worse than Tzinus you screamed -“What can be more important than ???? ????? ????? What can be more tragic than ??? ??????? WHat can be better than ?? ?’ ????? ????? ???? ??????”.
So instead of admitting it’s wrong and worse, you screamed it’s a minority.
Then when he mentioned about cheeseburgers, you screamed Arvus.
Sounds like hypocrisy to me -only with cheeseburgers is there Arvus, but not with bad Aveiros that occur with kids!!!
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