What Did He Gain?

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  • #1145483

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Do you really feel the need to mitigate mitzvos bein adam l’makom EVERY TIME? And at every opportunity? Yes, when disturbing someone else’s sleep is is gezel, and aveira (which cannot be repaid). It is wrong, dead wrong. I just wasn’t talking about that this time. Maybe next time I will.

    btw, funny thing. On my plane to EY, there were not chareidis (maybe non-Jews) making such a ruckus the WHOLE TIME, I couldn’t fall asleep, and I was so desperate for it!!

    #1145484

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You asked for an excuse for his behavior and I gave you one.

    How many seforim ask for you to look at the best in people and try to find excuses why someone might do something that appears to be wrong

    Maybe this yid was a very nervous flyer and could not really read a book (I personally get naseaus trying to read in a moving vehicle and cannot read on a plane or train) and did not want to disturb his fellow passengers so tried to use the onboard entertainment to keep himself calm and occupied

    #1145485

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Joseph: Are you paskening for the world about movies being an aveira? So all these frum people who watch movies are sinners? What exactly is the aveirah?

    #1145486

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x1532

    We’ve had this discussion before. The Shulchan Aruch hasn’t changed since then.

    #1145487

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yes, all the people watching movies are sinners.

    #1145488

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And the fact that a lot of frum people do it is no raya otherwise.

    There are way too many frum people who say lashon hara, are dishonest, insult other people, etc. and they too are sinners.

    #1145489

    Hey Joseph, is they one of those soul warming tochacha posts that brings people running to Torah life?

    #1145490

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yes. I’ve told people who watched movies that it is an aveira and more than one stopped.

    #1145491

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Yes, all the people watching movies are sinners.

    Look at a single photograph of my kid, fine. Look at him at the rate of 30 frames per second and all of sudden I’m sinning. Go figure.

    The Wolf

    #1145492

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Tochacha is a touchy subject for me, simply because I cannot do it. The few times that I have done so (usually over talking during davening) I felt so horrible afterwards that I simply cannot do it anymore. Confronting people in person, even when I’m in the right, has become so anathema to me, that I just no longer do it (not just in a tochacha situation, but in any situation).

    The Wolf

    #1145493

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Wolf, home videos of your kids are obviously not what is being discussed.

    #1145494

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    the ONLY people who should be doing tochacha are Rabbanin and ONLY if the knew the person and think they will listen . A Rabbi should not give tochacha to someone they know if they think it will backfire

    #1145495

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Maybe rabbonim should be the only ones putting on tefillin and giving tzeddakah and not speaking lashon hora?

    Which other mitzvos do you want to take away from non rabbonim?

    #1145496

    YesOrNo
    Participant

    “Besides the utter chilul HaShem, “

    Please Al Todin Es Chavercha Ad Shetagia Limkomo!

    Each person has their inner struggles and issues.

    I would say that inappropriate behavior is indicative of some kind of inner struggle.(big or small)

    Also call this an “utter chilul HaShem” may just be you projecting your feelings on him.

    what did he gain in Eretz Yisroel?

    Lchoira this is called “All or nothing thinking”. What do you mean what did he gain?

    However long he was there?!

    Sheva Yipol Tzadik Vkom!

    If Chas V’Shalom the Yetzer Hora gets someone to do an aveira, all his Mitzvos are thrown out the window???

    I once heard in the name of a Tzadik (could be R’ Nachman M’Breslev) that it is Atzas Hayeitzer that after a person does an aveira he should feel so bad, hopeless and worthless that he could think, “Oy what am I worth any way.” R”L

    The ikkar is to get back up , do Tshuva and keep going.

    Sitting on an airplane shoulder to shoulder with many people in your Daled Amos is certainly not the place to give Musser to someone you don’t know but What would’ve happened if you tapped him on the shoulder and asked him an innocent question?

    “excuse me do you have change of a dollar? Where is the nearest Shul to the airport? Which way is Mizrach? Oh I think you look familiar did you once go to a Bungalow Colony? Etc.”

    Zul Der Eibershter Heetin Oif Alle Yiddisher Kinder

    #1145497

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, home videos of your kids are obviously not what is being discussed.

    No distinction was made. Furthermore, I have been criticized in the past for having still photography of my wife and daughter, so it stands to reason that movies of them would be just as bad, if not worse, no?

    The Wolf

    #1145498

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In theory you are correct, however in reality tochhacha can backfire

    If you know the person and think they will listen, then by all means give it, but if not only that wont listen, but will become hostile or worse, then dont give.If you dont know. Its best to avoid

    #1145499

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Wolf, certain obvious distinctions don’t need to be explicitly stated. Furthermore, I don’t know that inappropriate still images are less bad than moving images; the issue is the appropriateness of the images.

    Just because some idiot criticizes innocent behavior doesn’t mean all behavior becomes okay.

    #1145500

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, there are halachos of tochacha. When we should try is not based on how we think it should be, but on what the halachah is for that situation. I’m glad you’ve acknowledged that not only rabbonim can give tochacha. Maybe at one point you’ll also realize that you don’t have to be 100% certain that the person’s behavior will change immediately for the mitzvah to apply. Gentle rebuke over an extended cperiod of time has often led to improved behavior, and sometimes immediate improvement.

    #1145501

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    this is all besides the point. the point was that Joseph can’t think that harsh, blunt comments that are hardly going to be well received by many many people are appropriate tochacha. it’s plain wrong. according to halacha there has to be a chance they will accept it and you have to know they will not be turned off by it. there is no question in anyones mind (due to past experience) that those words on a public forum were not going to be received well. that means it does NOT conform with the halachik standards for being appropriate.

    we argue about somantics and he goes off to the corner licking his paws.

    #1145502

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The problem you dont seem to Ackknowledge that tochcha can backfire

    A simple example. How many people have kept Shabbos because someone yelled shabbos at them . There have been protests against movie theaters open on Shabbos and when there are protests , more people showed up and most of those protested against , never closed and remain in business

    #1145503

    Joseph
    Participant

    SL: If even one person in the whole world reconsidered watching one movie, or refrained only one time from doing only one tiny sin, based on the generic comments – while everyone else reading it was angry at the rebuke, then not only was it halachicly correct but it is furthermore a total success that was well worth it.

    And, indeed, I think it is fair to say that it is possible that someone, somewhere, someplace, at some time now or in the future reading this thread will reconsider their habit of watching sinful movies. Maybe just once. Maybe for a lifetime. Maybe this week. Maybe in a year from now. Maybe just once. Maybe permanently.

    And since that is even a possibility of happening – once – even though it may never happen that someone reconsiders, since it is possible, that alone means that it is not only halachicly correct to give the rebuke but, rather, it is halachicly mandatory to give it.

    Though, imho, I think it is likely to have a beneficial effect on at least someone, at least once.

    I say so with the authority of having had more than one confirmed success in this arena.

    #1145504

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Some have said going on the Internet is an aveira as well, so what are all these people who say watching movies is an aveira, what are you doing here?

    #1145505

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In the Faranak Margolese book, there are several examples of people given tochcha (Teens) for seeing a movie, the tochcha backfired and those teens are not religious today

    #1145506

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Flatbusher, those who have said that being on the internet is always assur are probably not here.

    Undoubtedly, there are assur things people do on the internet, and muttar things.

    In theory, that could be true for movies as well, but nobody is fooling anyone if they claim that secular movies in the vast, vast majority don’t contain material which is assur to watch.

    Your comparison is completely inapt.

    #1145507

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    this is all besides the point. the point was that Joseph…

    That may be the point you wish to focus on, and you are entitled, but others may wish to focus on other points, and they are entitled as well.

    #1145508

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    In the Faranak Margolese book, there are several examples of people given tochcha (Teens) for seeing a movie, the tochcha backfired and those teens are not religious today

    Was it the tochacha which sent them OTD, or perhaps watching movies made them go OTD? Or perhaps whatever caused them to watch movies also caused them to go OTD?

    #1145509

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    that was not the point i was focusing on, that was the point that originated the discussion.

    and once again, thank you for the reminders on a regular basis to allow others to have opinions. it is very helpful to hear it so often.

    #1145510

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    In one of the examples, One of the teens saw a movie. The next day the principal of the school went into her classroom and opened a window and said there was a terrible stench in the room, because one of the girls had seen a movie. The Principle then pointed to the girl as being the terrible stench for seeing a movie

    #1145511

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Joseph – i don’t think you are correct that halacha allows you to actively turn off many people just to turn on one. I also don’t believe that the cold harsh nature of your posts has ever turned anyone on to anything. If you are talking about face to face talks, that isn’t even apples and oranges to this. and if you are talking about a different online forum, i can confidently tell you you are wrong.

    #1145512

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The post that originated the discussion (OP) had many points. There was a point about inappropriate material. There was a point about tochacha. There was a point about feeling upset and helpless at seeing someone do an aveirah.

    There were other points as well.

    Many of those points have been discussed, still others have not.

    I don’t think anyone should be dictating which points should be discussed by which posters. Everyone will comment on what interests them, what they feel is important, and where they feel they have something to contribute.

    #1145513

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, not all tochchah is created equally.

    If you want to build a rule from that story, the rule should be that principals should not give tochachah, but earlier, you practically said the opposite, that only people in position of authority should give tochachah.

    So don’t build any rules except what the halachah states, applied with seichel for the situation.

    #1145514

    flatbusher
    Participant

    DY: I don’t agree. The same people who assur movies are probably among those who assur Internet and anything else in sight. To me it’s hypocritical to call watching movies an aveira but then make a presence on the Internet. If you don’t see it, then it’s just a rationalization that they’re not the same, but for those who declare things assur, it should be same. I would like to know the names of the rabbonim who assured all movies, and the source for it.

    #1145515

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    They are not the same people. Sure, those who asser internet asser movies, but not vice versa.

    When you say and anything else in sight, you make them sound like unlearned fanatics who asser for the sake of assering, and that assering movies is like assering going for a walk. Talk about rationalizing…

    Your own words: The same people who assur movies are probably among those who assur Internet

    So you grant that you’re not certain, and you grant that even if they overlap, there are some who asser movies but not internet. So the people here probably follow a posek from among those who allo internet (filtered) but not movies.

    Throwing in “all” movies is a red herring. We’re talking about movies containing inappropriate material, which is the vast, vast majority of secular entertainment, but not literally “all” movies.

    As I posted, the source for assering inappropriate material is the Shulchan Aruch. The material the Shulchan Aruch was referring to was, I’m told, far less offensive than almost any movie produced in the last fifty years (maybe more).

    #1145516

    Joseph
    Participant

    SL: I enumerated what the Halacha is on tochacha and provided the halachic source. Are you disagreeing what the Halacha is based on your halachic expertise, in which case kindly cite your source, or based on your gut feelings what the Halacha on tochacha is or should be?

    As an aside, I was not referring to the ft forum. But what I can tell you with authority is that that particular forum has indeed saved many many people from continuing from a path of aveiras. And you needn’t rely on my authority to confirm this fact. Rabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein (a centrist/MO rabbi) wrote a full length glowing article in OU’s Jewish Action magazine extolling how many young people that forum saved from the brink of spiritual destruction. And he acknowledged it’s straight and hard approach to expressing the Halacha – and he acknowledged all this despite his noting he disagreed with its anti-Zionism, which he noted was a separate issue.

    As far as myself, I’ve been thanked directly by multiple folks for online direction I’ve posted on various issues where people were on the wrong path.

    #1145517

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Just because some idiot criticizes innocent behavior doesn’t mean all behavior becomes okay.

    Obviously, to the idiot in question, my having pictures of my wife and daughter is *not* innocent.

    The Wolf

    #1145518

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Does that make truly inappropriate pictures okay, or somehow change the Torah’s actual guidelines for what is inappropriate?

    #1145519

    nfgo3
    Member

    To the opening poster: Clearly you are the greatest Jew alive today, wedged on an airplane between an untznius woman and a bochur not being bocur-ish, and learning Tehillim. So, great Jew, what exactly is the point of your post?

    #1145520

    YesOrNo
    Participant

    Could be that the whole Kavana of the original post is:

    Wow Little Froggie!

    I am so impressed by your Koychoys Hanefesh!

    To be on a plane- an uncomfortable surroundings

    (Physically, it is squashy and stuffy, you cannot lie down. There’s lots of noise)

    with Nisyonos around you galore!

    (Movie screens- people sitting next to you etc.)

    And still you managed to be Oytzem Aynuv, not to look where you’re not supposed to, not to touch what you shouldn’t touch even inadvertently!

    And on top of all that you were Oysek bTorah!

    Wow that is truly amazing!!!!

    **A true Kiddish HaShem!**

    And who knows viffel Hashpaos toyvos you made!!!!

    Sy Yene Bachur

    Sy Yene Isha

    At all those on the plane who had the Zchus to see you

    Sy all of us in The Coffee Room who read about it

    May we all learn from you and be encouraged from your actions.

    Der Zchus Zul Eich Byshteyn!

    #1145521

    flatbusher
    Participant

    DY wrote: Throwing in “all” movies is a red herring. We’re talking about movies containing inappropriate material, which is the vast, vast majority of secular entertainment, but not literally “all” movies.

    How would you personally know what the “vast, vast majority” of secular entertainment is unless you experienced yourself. I took issue with Joseph’s comment about it being an aveirah to watch movies. He didn’t qualify it as you have, but your generalization is suspect unless you have been involved in all sorts of secular entertainment to make such a judgment about its appropriateness.

    From your comment, you haven’t personally studied the Shulchan Aruch on this matter, correct?

    #1145522

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Incorrect.

    You’re using the same tactic you used earlier; attacking the ability of the posters you are debating to have an informed opinion, rather than actually disputing their correct points.

    The contemporary poskim who have discussed this issue would also be discredited according to you, but they managed to figure out that secular media is mostly inappropriate from a Torah standpoint.

    Do you actually deny this?.

    #1145523

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Nfgo3, that is mean-spirited and unfair.

    #1145524

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    people have told me they were suspended given detention, fined and other punishements for seeing a movie, however these were not published in a book so I didnt post them and these people felt the punishment was unfair and they decided they werent interested in yiddishkeit and went OTD

    #1145525

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Nfgo3 and another(I can’t figure out if he’s laying it on or sincere)

    Yes, ouch. It did hurt. And maybe that was the point of your post.

    If you’d care to read the beginning convo, I just stated that there was something that bothered me greatly and I was airing out. No, as I wrote later, and people took me to task, I am not a tzaddik, neither holy (putting it mildly). Again, I repeat I am not a tzaddik, or holy, certainly not holier than you. How I wish I would always be holy, spiritual, morally upright… obviously I’m not yet…

    And it has nothing, nothing to do with what I was occupying my humble self with, to stay out of trouble. I didn’t mean to elaborate on that, and I regret I wrote that. I wrote the issue that was disturbing to me. Again, as I wrote before, I was and am sorry for emitting that tone of voice that implies something to the sort of me c”v being above anyone else.

    and Flatbusher:

    I can’t figure out what your trying to do. I wrote before it was something unquestionably inappropriate by any standards. And running the whole time. Yeshiva World won’t allow me to elaborate… if you’d be a chacham it would be enough. Die lchakima berimiza.

    #1145526

    kapusta
    Participant

    Just here to add an interesting point on the tochacha thing. The story appears on page 257 of the biography of Rebbetzin Kanievsky. In a nutshell: a baalas teshuva who frequented the Kanievsky home would come to help clean up on Shabbos, including washing dishes which were not needed for use on Shabbos. A grandson noticed and mentioned this to Rebbetzin Kanievsky, who responded that the woman is very sensitive and that she would try to explain it to her over the following few weeks. Someone asked Rav Chaim about this and he responded that the Rebbetzin knew what she was doing and would find a way to tell her the correct Halacha.

    Carry on.

    #1145527

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, I’ll repeat what I wrote earlier: Was it the tochacha which sent them OTD, or perhaps watching movies made them go OTD? Or perhaps whatever caused them to watch movies also caused them to go OTD?

    Also, do you consider not watching movies a chumra or obligatory, and if the former, would you say the same about something obligatory?

    #1145528

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Kapusta, the point can’t be stressed enough that tochacha does not mean harsh scolding (unless only that will be effective).

    In s similar vein, someone once complained to the Chofetz Chaim that no matter how much he yells at people not to be mechallel Shabbos, they don’t stop.

    The Chofetz Chaim asked him if when he puts on tefillin, he yells.

    He responded that there’s no inyan to yell when putting on tefillin.

    The Chofetz Chaim told him that there’s no inyan to yell when giving rebuke either.

    #1145529

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    When dealing with people, you have to know how to handle them. Not everyone who watches a movie goes OTD

    I cant say for sure, but my guess is these people were a bit on the margins and could have gone either way and when dealing with such people you need to be extra careful

    #1145530

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Not every one who receives harsh rebuke goes OTD.

    Yes, I agree with you that different people need to be treated differently. That’s why you can’t make the same rules for everyone.

    You didn’t answer my last question.

    #1145531

    kapusta
    Participant

    Agreed. I was just reiterating the point with a verifiable story from a tremendous person who understood it from both sides.

    #1145532

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I wont say my opinion about movies for various reasons

    But about an actual Averiah, JMO use your seichel on the averiah, Not all averiahs are equal and some it might be best to slide and others you need to stand up no matter what. If you see someone with a gun going on their way to kill someone, you most certainly should do whatever it takes to stop them. I would let it slide if some teen wants to watch the latest Star Wars movie. I dont think that leads to the road of OTDness

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