What Did He Gain?

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  • #1145533

    golfer
    Participant

    Zdad, if I saw someone with a gun on the way to kill someone, I would not try to stop him. I would run away as fast as I can (admittedly not that fast) and call 911.

    Just trying to point out, as others have, that the Mitzva of tochacha requires making some judgment calls. (When not in immediate danger as above, speaking to someone wise and learned can be very helpful.)

    #1145534

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Are you disagreeing what the Halacha is based on your halachic expertise, ….. or based on your gut feelings what the Halacha on tochacha is or should be?

    the more i hear this comment (in it’s many forms) the blurrier the lines between you and DY become.

    #1145535

    YesOrNo
    Participant

    To Little Froggie:

    The compliment is sincere.

    #1145536

    Joseph
    Participant

    DY is my alter-ego…

    #1145537

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Little Froggie,

    You seemed to feel strongly about this due to the contradiction in what you saw – someone dressed in a very frum manner doing something that was decidedly not frum. Of the responses in this thread that I read, I think gavra at work’s is the most helpful: that you may have misinterpreted the man you were seeing. He listed some examples (e.g., “Orthoprax”), but I don’t think those are highly likely. Here’s what I think – you saw an “almost” BT.

    Speaking as a BT, when one becomes frum, it is not a “poof” overnight thing. It takes time to learn halachos and hashkafos. I started wearing a kippa before I had kashrus completely figured out, and actually received some tochacha one day from an OTD guy who was working in a non-kosher restaurant I ate in. Even though he was OTD, he had the same reaction to the contradictory image that Little Froggie did. I ended up having a nice long conversation with him, and looking back, I process the incident as one that helped propel me towards full observance of kashrus. I wonder if it had any effect on him as well.

    #1145538

    golfer
    Participant

    A in MD,

    Very much enjoyed your post. Partly for its candid honesty. Mainly because you succeeded where others failed- in being dan le’kaf z’chus a person whose actions seemed hard to explain away.

    #1145539

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Little Froggie: I maintain that regardless of what you saw, unless you know the person, his situation or how he would react, I question whether your desire to rebuke him is appropriate. Now, you said what he was watching was obviously assur or something to that effect. Well, how would you know that unless you too were looking at it?

    #1145540

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You’re doing it again.

    It’s also odd that you would question his desire to rebuke. It is a mitzvah. Yes, perhaps sometimes it is “lo sisa alav chet” and you can’t do it in practice, but you’re still supposed to want to do the mitzvah. Not to put someone down, ch”v, which some have cynically accused LF of, but because you don’t want him to do the aveirah and cause chillul Hashem.

    #1145541

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Yes, it IS a mitzvah to rebuke. A times though it is a mitzvah to keep ones mouth shut. The details are in knowing when which course of action is appropriate.

    #1145542

    flatbusher
    Participant

    DY: As far as your comment that vast majority of secular entertainment is inappropriate and the issue by a majority of rabbonim I’m afraid is a similar scenario as the Internet issue. That big asifa about the Internet several years ago involved speaker who may probably did not experience the Internet themselves but made their judgment based on what people told them. I don’t know who told them what but after that I heard at least one rav said it’s better for women who made their parnasa online to do without parnasa than have the Internet. And in general the Internet was demonized regardless of the fact that people do make a living through it. I would imagine someone told rabbonim that all movies are filth, and both the informer and the rabbonim really have no direct knowledge of it.

    #1145543

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The rabbonim are not misinformed. The internet is dangerous (some therefore are totally machmir, but many do allow some access), and most secular entertainment is assur.

    Who cares how they and I know it? You know it’s the truth and you’re not fooling anyone if you say it’s mostly fine.

    #1145544

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    flatbusher,

    Little Froggie: I maintain that regardless of what you saw, unless you know the person, his situation or how he would react, I question whether your desire to rebuke him is appropriate.

    I think you could question whether actually rebuking him would have been appropriate or not, but how could you question Little Froggie’s desire to do so in the absence of action?

    Now, you said what he was watching was obviously assur or something to that effect. Well, how would you know that unless you too were looking at it?

    Have you ever been on an airplane?

    #1145545

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Avraham: I’m not being ‘Dan’ at all. A person has ‘nisyonos’ each different than the other,each person custom made to his/her own standing and circumstance. But case at hand – I know who I was looking at. It was no BT in any shape or form.

    Part of what I bemoan is the lack of attention afforded by Yeshivos and girl Schools to combat todays’ challenges. There are some, and most mosdos do some, but all in all it’s very lacking. Today’s young are not taught self control, tools to do battle with the very powerful forces of the ever present Yetzer and his newly tactics that pop up anew each day. And if I must be ‘Dan lkaf zchus’ that is the zchus. He wasn’t taught how to control himself properly. How to use the ZeesKite of Torah, of HaShem, of a Jewish lifestyle to combat other gratifications.

    #1145546

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Flatbusher: As I wrote before, I didn’t rebuke, chide or tell anyone off. I’m not the type of person that speaks out in public, I use the CR to do what I wouldn’t do in public for anything!!! I wrote about that before. So naturally I had no desire to do so. I only with I found the guts to get up and say something intuitively, kindly, softly, full of concern. Or that someone else would have noticed and told him something.

    How I noticed? I wrote about that, if you’d noticed. “I’m only human – so I scanned the horizon from time to time…”

    #1145547

    squeak
    Participant

    The OP wants to be judged for his tzidkus, otherwise he would have posted the question for “a friend” the same way “a friend” is the one who wants to know whether pouring milk into the cholent ruined the pot and the stovetop in addition to the food.

    #1145548

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Squeak: Actually I don’t want to be judged at all!! And I’m truly sorry I started this whole thing…

    #1145549

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Little Froggie,

    I’m not being ‘Dan’ at all. A person has ‘nisyonos’ each different than the other,each person custom made to his/her own standing and circumstance. But case at hand – I know who I was looking at. It was no BT in any shape or form.

    You say that you are not judging him, but by declaring that you know “who” you were looking at, you are judging him. And unless you know him personally, there is no way to tell whether he is a BT or not through clothing. I have met people dressed in a chassidish manner, complete with peyos, who just a year or two before were not yet frum. It happens, it really does. Maybe he wasn’t, who knows. The only reason I am responding with this possibility is that in your OP, you stated that you were bothered and shocked.

    #1145550

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Golfer,

    Thank you for the kind words.

    #1145551

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    A in MD:

    An admirable sentiment, and certainly a fantastic example of judging everybody favourably, but probably mistaken. What the OP saw was a very unfortunate example of somebody failing. It could have been an isolated incident, it could have been that this bochur has a weakness in this, and possible other areas. It is unfortunately not that uncommon.

    #1145552

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Whilst I sympathise with the understandable shock and upset of LF, what I must take issue with are the blanket proclamations he made off the back off it. This incident, whilst disturbing, does not necessarily mean that this bochur gained nothing from their time in Israel, or that the system is failing to deal with this issue sufficiently.

    Firstly, it is entirely possible that, faced with a screen and all the content it offers, and a long flight, he slipped and watched something he shouldn’t have, but that generally he takes more care in these matters. It could be that this bochur is weak in this particular area, or has a larger issue with his yiras shomayim. The fact that he was dressed in chassidishe clothing means next to nothing, as nowadays it says very little about the wearers status. I personally have seen far worse from people dressed that way, and have come to disregard it as an indicator of the wearer’s beliefs.

    #1145553

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Zahavasdad:

    A cursory examination of the above discussion leads me to take issue with some of your earlier statements, I hope in a non-offensive fashion.

    Whilst I admire your concern and positive outlook on the behaviour described in the OP, which seems sincere and well meaning, some of your justifications seemed far off the mark.

    Firstly, if I may ask directly, do you honestly believe that the fact that he may have kept awake others by talking in any way mitigates watching inappropriate content (I will assume LF was accurate in that aspect)? It’s not an either/or. And your attitude towards ‘chareidim’, and seemingly overly harsh judgement of their behaviour speaks for itself.

    But what really bothered me was the attitude towards tochacha. As a side note, one should give tochacha if the giver believes it will be well received. In this case, I doubt it would have. But bringing up instances of poor chinuch, ostensibly leading to teens going OTD, as a way of writing off tochacha and aspects of the chinuch system completely, is pure straw-manning. Of course, in the examples provided the mechanchim in question did the wrong thing, but that doesn’t mean mechanchim in general shouldn’t try, in the correct manner, to help their charges face these and similar nisyonos.

    #1145554

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    You are right!

    Thank you

    #1145555

    flatbusher
    Participant

    DY: The rabbonim are not misinformed. The internet is dangerous (some therefore are totally machmir, but many do allow some access), and most secular entertainment is assur.

    Who cares how they and I know it? You know it’s the truth and you’re not fooling anyone if you say it’s mostly fine.

    I didn’t say it was mostly fine, but what is your standard for what is inappropriate? And yes, it makes a difference to me what an issur is based on. From what I heard at the asifa, the harshness sounds like it grew out of what people who told rabbonim onky the evils of the Internet. Many frum people have parnassa today whether self-employed or otherwise because of the Internet, and the Internet itself is not evil, it’s what user do with it. As for entertainment, it sure sounded like posters were demonizing all forms of secular entertainment, and I would like to know what that is based on. As I have heard over the years, it’s easy to assur everything, but takes a real talmud chochom to identify a heter. I am not saying any rav will bless watching movies, but a blanket issur really is also questionable. For a person who has a taiva for movies, wouldn’t it be better to allow something harmless than have that person turn to other activities that migth be worse?

    #1145556

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Allow something which is assur because others are more assur? I don’t think so.

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