What Did I do?!

Why are you mishing Torah values into this monologue? This has absolutely nothing to do with Torah values. The Torah is absolutely positively non-egalitarian. Cohanim are on top of Leviim. Leviim come before Yisroelim. Rabbonim come on top of them all. Avodim (yes, the Torah permits avdos) come after them all. There’s a pecking order between Yehudim and nochrim too.

Joseph said it excellently

Nobody ever plays on a level field. The world is not level. Nobody has the right to expect a level field, or to complain that it isn’t. You are expected to do the best you can with what you are given, that’s all. Some have a better start than others and will achieve more; you have no right to be jealous of them. What the other person has did not come at your expense; if he didn’t have it you wouldn’t have got it instead.

There is no “systematic racism”, or “inherent racism”. What there is is the fact that many black people are criminals. Many more, proportionately, than white people. When 1/32 of the population (young black men) commit more than HALF of the violent crime, it simply makes sense that whenever you see a young black man whom you don’t know, you have to consider that he may be a violent criminal. Every honest black person will admit that he does the same thing. Even Jesse Jackson admitted it, in a rare honest moment.

The difference between that and racism hinges on those two little words “may be”. A racist is someone who thinks that every young black man IS a violent criminal; a reasonable person is one who when he first meets such a person considers that he MAY BE, but if he has a chance to observe the person he modifies his consideration in accord with what he sees, and the more information he gets the more he modifies it.

But if a decent young black man is tired of always being suspected and feared, he should blame not the people who RIGHTLY AND JUSTLY suspect and fear him, but all the criminals who look like him. If they didn’t commit their crimes nobody would think twice about him.

It’s the same as Arabs in Eretz Yisroel. You’d have to be crazy to get in a car with an Arab driver, or not to worry a little when you see an Arab in the street, because so many of them have attacked and murdered Jews. So all the rest of them unfortunately have to pay a price by being suspected even if they’re tzadikim gemurim, because nobody can read their minds and know that.

besalel: The rate of criminal history among black males in the US is very significantly higher than your example figures.

Joseph, a mamzir talmid chacham yisroel comes before a kohen am haaretz. We go by merit and not yichus.

besalel: It is significantly higher than 10%. In 2010 the percentage of black males with a felony record was 33%. If you take age into account, say between 15 and 55, it is likely a majority.

“The Torah is absolutely positively non-egalitarian. ”

The concept of race is completely absent from the Torah.

besalel: 33% of black males have a felony conviction and 15% have served time in prison. Those are official statistics from 2010. Nationally from the total US population (all ethnicities/races, which includes the black figures), 8% have felony convictions and 3% have been in prison. Whites about 3% have felonies and less than 1% were in prison.

Which demonstrates an African-American is over ten times as likely to be a criminal than a white person.

Charlie: The concept of race is completely absent from the Torah.

Really. So Amalek is not a race we need to exterminate, Moav Amon and Mitrayim are not races with restrictions on entering klal Yisroel.

The concept of 70 ummos haolam – למשפחותם ללשונותם is not a Torah concept.

Ok. So we see that you are a complete stranger to Torah but a very good friend of your בויך.

Salem: By1212: amalek and the 70 umot are nationalities not race. I actually do not know what the word race actually means.

Uh…למשפחותם. the Torah clearly states that the 70 ummos are racial. I.e. they come from common ancestry which the Torah goes thru the טירחה of listing Each even has specific מידות רעות as per chazal.

Until sancheriv , there was no difference btwn race and nationality. Then בלבל את האומות, and you had a restructuring of national identity removed from race. So today עשו or אדום had morphed into Rome which in turn morphed into the western European countries. אגב this is what בלעם was referring to when he said:. אוי, מי יחיה משומו קל. See. Rashi. בלעם understood how awful it was when your national identity is obliterated and instead of a racial identity you have an ersatz fiat/fraudulent “nationalistic” one.

How you can claim that Amalek is not a race is absurd. And betrays a tendency to knee jerk react. How does one become an Amaleki? Only by being born into it. That is racial. You can’t get Amaleki citizenship on your own and become liable all of a sudden to being annihilated by the Jews. You must be born as part of the group. Sheesh. Must every obvious idea be explained? Indeed there is no seichel left anymore. Just. An idiotic lack of common Sense. How stupid we have become.

Maybe you think race only has what to do w skin color. I assure you it does not. It refers to common ancestry. (Caucasian anybody?) Which is why people of one race generally have similar physical characteristics.

Now even being Jewish is essentially a racial thing bc the Jewish nation started w אברהם יצחק and יעקב and the שבטים. Now it is not totally racial since what ultimately defined us as a nation was maamad har Sinai and that bris is open to gerim as well. Nevertheless, a ger a absorbed into the race of the avos/shvotim. We are still a distinct race. Just one that accepts outsiders who also sayאלקי אבותינו אלקי אברהם אלקי יצחק ואחרי יעקבbc our race became intertwined w an idea that overrides our race.

Btw , we even have racial division within klal Yisroel – i.e. the 12 shvotim. This has caused problems. Like the אפרים מנשה bqcivil war, the refusal of the majority of the Jewish people to accept Dovid as melech…. Even today in Israel people who belittle morrocans etc are calledגזענים. And of course the morrocans in turn are גזעני to the תימנים. And the תימנים, well…שמים פס על כווולם. Lovely aint it?

On the Torah part, if anybody cares. Who comes first, says nothing about the respect that is due every person. Am I allowed to dehumanize the Levi, to save a Kohen? Can you really read parshas noach with or without any commentary, and miss that every human life is regarded? Have you not seen that the three cardinal sins are laid out around human dignity, and together with the mitzvah of preserving life? Did you skip the Neviim, that equates the Yidden with the other nations in the eyes of Hashem? How much of Tehillem discusses the equality of men, and the loftiness of the human spirit?
One can look around at society today, and justly condemn this individual or that group. But if he goes to the Torah, and could not find enough self-criticism to point only at himself, than he misses the whole point.

For @catchyourself and everyone else agreeing with him, I have one thing to say:

There is no more anti-Semitism and you have to owe up to that.

If you can say that black Americans are “bullies” and there’s no more American racism, then there’s also no more anti-Semitism and every claim otherwise is just “what did I do?”

oh yay! somehow the conversation circled back to Joseph’s favorite!

False. I just hate the Chillul Hashem you make when you start drooling over it.

two points,
1 The Torah is not egalitarian, everything from laws of inheritance to witnesses to service in the bais hamikdosh is not equal, in spite of attempts by people like Avi Weiss, it is not equal nor will it ever be.
2. Having worked in both corporate America and the government I can tell you that if your halfway competent and black doors will open for you and never are open for anyone else, so to say that there is prevalent racism out there is bogus.

Regarding race, you’re also mistaken, CY. See the Rashi in Parshas Noach.

Of course if someone becomes a Ger Tzedek that changes the world. He then starts a brand new life under a brand new scheme. But you surely cannot make a general claim that color isn’t a factor in the Torah.

“2. Having worked in both corporate America and the government I can tell you that if your halfway competent and black doors will open for you and never are open for anyone else, so to say that there is prevalent racism out there is bogus.”

Exactly right, CS.

Less is expected and demanded from black candidates and employees. They receive preferential treatment in hiring (affirmative action) as well as in continuing employment, as you pointed out.

The reality in America for the last half century is that the most prevalent racism, by far, is reverse racism against whites.

Dear Joseph,
I do not want to burst your bubble, but there is practically no scenario (Besides for one example explicitly mentioned in the Mishna.) where you let the woman die to save the man. Car accident? Go to the one who took the biggest hit first. Drowning? Closest to the rescuer. Fire? Closest to the rescuer. One dose of medicine? See above. Hospital? Whoever was admitted first. Captive? Redeem the woman first. Death row? See above. Stuck in a foreign country? See above. Shelter? From a riot: Woman first. Starvation: Same. Poverty: Same. Cold: Whoever comes first. Heat: Same.
The man comes first when it comes to giving him a job, lending money, charity, returning a lost article, et cetera… If the woman actually dies because you gave the man some money, I would be suspicious of your over zealousness………..

There are two separate discussions about Black versus White inequality in this country.

Most of the conversation on this site, deal with ‘living the american dream’. While Blacks today still face a serious task for upward social success, so does everyone else. It can be argued that Blacks face more difficulties than Whites. But it can easily be countered, that every successful group in this country, had to overcome formidable challenges to get where they are today. There is a tangent here, about bias against successful people because of the communities they come from. As affirmative action grew, this topic has become more convoluted. There is no easy understanding, it is complicated. We cannot go back and clarify all the causes of Black/White inequalities since emancipation. We cannot deny them either. It is a stalled debate.
There are many different takes on how to restart the debate, without going back to slavery. Here is one that I remember from a black activist in the seventies. ‘America has served as a melting pot for every race. For centuries, Blacks were denied entry into american society. Blacks were also denied the ability to form their own society. Americans have to decide, should Blacks melt into America, or compete with it?’ This is very debatable.

N0m: It isn’t limited to the specific circumstances listed in the Mishna. The Mishna gives it as an example; it is a general rule. And it is codified as Halacha in the Shulchan Aruch.

N0m: Do you imagine that the Shulchan Aruch codified a Halacha (that is cited throughout the Rishonim and as you pointed out is based on the Mishna and Gemora) that is some exceptionally rare circumstance that is virtually inconceivable to transpire in accordance with the described Halachic description?

That asked, think about the Titanic and how the crew triaged who to rescue and who not to, because there wasn’t enough room on the boats offloading passengers. As you know the crew triaged based on gender. So much so, that Congress actually held public hearings on why some prominent men were permitted to have their lives saved by giving them the limited space on the life boats when there were still women who weren’t given that slot. Congress was angry that those men were saved before the women.

N0m, of course Yidden who follow Halacha would have done it oppositely of the triaged gender based decisions of the Titanic crew, based upon the Halacha we are discussing. But my primary point in bringing the example of the Titanic is that, no, it isn’t as rare as you seem to be making it out. And, yes, there are times when this Halacha would kick in.

N0m: The Titanic would fall under the Halacha in the Mishna and Shulchan Aruch that we’ve discussed above. Why would you think otherwise?

N0m: Firstly explain, in detail, your understanding of the aforementioned Halacha in that Mishna and Shulchan Aruch and when it does apply. Please also give a realistic example.

After explaining that, then secondly explain how you think the Titanic is different and doesn’t fall under that Halacha’s parameters.

Please label the first part as 1 and label the second answer as 2.