What Did I do?!

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  • #1876785
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    1 See above #1876354
    1a I do not know a practical application. Same
    1b There is no reason to assume the Mishna or the SA have a practical application in mind. It is teaching concepts and principles. Not fundamentalist rituals. #1876721
    1c It is possible that before industrialism, to rescue a life required setting out to fetch help. Which would entail a decision of whom to get and who to treat. Which is similar to what I made up in #1876356
    2 #1876757

    #1876801
    Joseph
    Participant

    N0m: You’re going out on a huge limb to avoid acknowledging that the Halacha is a practical one that’s in effect in the normal course of life. I dare speculate that the reason you’re going so far out of your way to avoid acknowledging the practical effects of this mitzvah is a result of being ashamed of it when having to explain and justify it to non-Jews and secular Jews who, with their 20th/21st century Western mindset cannot conceive of such a law set by G-d.

    It’s the same thing other people do regarding kaparos, mezitza b’peh and even plain ‘ole Bris Milah itself, among other “archaic” Mitzvos and obligations.

    The facts of the matter are that on the Titanic you had masses of people congregating on the deck angling and pushing to get in to the limited number of lifeboats. They were all there together, many masses of people, that the crew had to select from right in front of their noses. As such, this is certainly a very clear case of were this Halacha we’re discussing in the Mishna and Shulchan Aruch would certainly apply.

    #1876948
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    The crew was wrong to waste time selecting. The first person they grab, would be helped into the boat. And they should immediately move on to the next one. Any extra milliseconds should be used to think of a solution for the people in the back of the crowd. Who could imagine thinking about a hierarchy in such an urgent situation?

    #1876946
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    No, I am on solid ground. Saving lives is critical to life centric Judaism. You cannot push away a life, regardless of gender.
    I have never defended this to a non-jew. None ever brought it up to me. Some Yidden have mentioned it to me. Sometimes I corrected them, sometimes not. If I can divulge some personal information here, I am a terrible apologist. If someone has a moral question on halacha which I cannot answer, I like to say I am not gifted with Divine Intuition.

    #1876963
    Joseph
    Participant

    N0m: The Titanic is a textbook case as described in the Mishna and Shulchan Aruch. It directly describes the situation. There’s no ambiguity. You are avoiding this fact by trying to twist like a pretzel what the Halacha is and how it directly describes such a situation. You’re being intellectually dishonest by taking a virtual carbon copy of the situation in trying to fardrey it somehow differently.

    #1877022
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    Intellectual dishonesty is when debunked theories are put out, sources are not examined, proofs ignored, and so on. You mean I am being dishonest, or plain old lying to you. Well, you could just settle it by answering the questions on your position. Perhaps you do not see any inconsistency between putting the man first, and pushing away the woman’s life for someone else’s life.
    So go ahead and paint a picture of what you would have done on the Titanic. Suppose you are the sailor lifting the passengers into the lifeboats. The Captain calls out women and children first! The crowds oblige and the mothers come to the front, with their kids about them. What do you do next?

    #1877028
    Joseph
    Participant

    I would simply follow the Halacha, as is, as written in the Mishna and Shulchan Aruch. No ifs, ands or buts or variances or excuses or trying to twist what the Halacha says to fardrey an excuse why it doesn’t apply when it is a clear-cut textbook case directly fitting into the aforementioned Halacha. I would have no compunctions whatsoever following the law that the Ribono Shel Olam created and enacted as explained by Chazal, the Rishonim, Achronim and poskim.

    That’s all in a Jewish controlled environment, which the Titanic obviously was not thereby precluding following Halacha.

    As an aside, do you find it objectionable to how, during the actual emergency, the Titanic crew gender-based triaged who would be saved and who would not?

    #1877049
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    “..as explained by…….” I have asked for sources. Please let me know if you find any.
    If we keep this up, maybe I could get used to yeshivah again. “……precluding following Halacha.” You said it yourself. As we approach real life situations, the idea of the Mishna fades into the realm of the hypothetical. And the rule of never pushing away one life for another takes precedence.
    About the gender-based triage, I have vague feelings about it. But the vanity that was displayed while facing death was quite reprehensible. If they would have only thought about saving people……….

    #1877071
    Joseph
    Participant

    N0m: Mishna Horayos 3:7 (13a in the Gemora), Rambam (on that Mishna), Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 252:8.

    The Halacha most certainly does not “fade away”. The Titanic is a textbook case fitting perfectly into that Halacha. Obviously if goyim are running the show you’re not going to expect them to follow Halacha while we’re in golus. But Yidden most certainly must and will.

    #1877090
    Joseph
    Participant

    The Rashba says the reason a man is saved first is based on the pasuk in Vayikra 25:36, where the pasuk tells us the “brother shall live” with you. The Rambam says the reason is because men have more mitzvos so they have a more important function in life, as a man is more “mekudash” than a woman which gives him precedence להחיות. The Shach (Y.D. 251:11) explains that the definition of להחיות is to save them from a life threatening situation. Also see Rama YD 252:8 and Taz YD 252:6 saying the same precedence is applicable.

    The Ya’avetz (quoted in Pischei Teshuva YD 252:7) asks what would be if the threat is not physical but rather spiritual and the community has a choice to redeem either a boy or a girl, but not both, from the spiritual danger. The Ya’avetz concludes that since the precedence is given to the boy for physical danger, it should certainly be given to him for spiritual danger.

    The Igros Moshe 7 CM 75 also rules this halacha is applicable. In fact, there’s virtually no disagreement whatsoever among the poskim that this is a valid and applicable halacha. Rav Moshe writes that “that it should be obvious and clear to every Ben Torah and Yirei Shamayim that one is obligated to cure and save every person without regard to their wisdom or knowledge and one should only triage on the basis of the order in the Mishna in Horayos”. (Igros Moshe CM2 74:1). Rav Chaim Rapoport in “The Halachic Hierarchy for Triage” (Le’eyla, June 2001, pp. 27-38) writes “Rabbi Feinstein’s statement clearly reconfirms the unchallenged halachic system: the criteria in the Mishna in Horayos remains binding in contemporary times and have not been displaced by any ‘custom’.” The reluctance by some to use this system, Rav Rapoport says, is an aversion to this politically incorrect and non-egalitarian halachic ideology.

    #1877188
    Joseph
    Participant

    While the Titanic was a clear-cut textbook example of when this Halacha applies it is just one example of many contemporary possible scenarios. Another recent example is if what happened in Italy and Spain two or three months ago during the coronovirus, where they ran out of hospital beds and the hospitals were therefore rejecting sick patients who required hospitalization were to c’v occur in a Jewish controlled environment, we would be required to follow the triage order outlined in Horayos, as per Rav Moshe is the Igros Moshe based on the Mishna, Rambam, Rama, Rashba, Ya’avetz, etc.

    #1877189
    Joseph
    Participant

    In his teshuva in the Igros Moshe, Rav Moshe also writes that in a contemporary case where it becomes necessary to follow the triage order given in Horayos in a situation where only one can be saved, or where you must choose who to save first, if two people come in with the same precedence under the order given in the Mishna in Horayos, the doctor should make a lottery to choose which patient to take.

    #1877194
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    I am not sure of your stance, let me see if I could get that article. Maybe it would clarify what you are trying to say. I do not recall any real proofs against my stance from your sources. Let me double check, I will get back.

    Two quick points.
    ‘Fades away’ was a misquote. I wrote the reverse of the ‘hypothetical does not materialize’.
    The Titanic cannot serve as a textbook case. Time was off essence. There is (almost) no triage. Calmly save as many as possible.

    #1877227
    Joseph
    Participant

    N0m: The Titanic crew, in fact, at the the of the emergency knowing they were short of space on the lifeboats, believed they had time and DID triage. It turned out they released their last lifeboat just prior to sinking.

    In any event, regardless of what occurred in that situation, consider a similar future situation where there is time to triage but not enough facilities.

    Which article are you referring to? I provided above numerous sources, all independently reaching the same conclusion I’ve described.

    #1877231
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    The Le’eyla article.

    #1877235
    Joseph
    Participant

    The Chazon Ish (Bava Metziah 62a as well as in Yoreh Deah) also paskens we follow the order in Horayos. Rav Vozner in Shevet HaLeivi siman 342 says the same, as well.

    #1877306
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    Those are new for me. I will look soon. Meanwhile, can you clarify your position? If a couple would come to your ER with the same symptoms. You are treating the man first. Suddenly, the woman collapses. You switch to the woman. Why?

    #1877327
    Joseph
    Participant

    Why are you making assumptions? Your scenario is also lacking granular details. The Titanic scenario was a simpler discussion to make the overall point, as many people were standing shoulder to shoulder waiting to disembark. My position is to follow Horayos. Just as Chazal paskened. And as affirmed by all the above Rishonim and Achronim.

    #1877348
    catch yourself
    Participant

    What has emerged from all of this is that there is only one isolated example of any sort of Halachic preference for certain people over others, and that this is exclusively in a situation where you are forced to choose between people.

    This is the key. If you are forced to choose, a hierarchy is required. The Titanic crew, as well, was expected to follow a specific hierarchy, albeit not the one provided in Horayos. They were supposed to rescue women first; does this prove that the British society of 1915 favored women? The millions of British women who could not vote until many years later would like a word…

    There is no debate about whether any person, from the Kohen Gadol to the Mamzer, would be treated equally if possible. This is true with regard to saving lives, as well as to all other areas of Halacha. If the Kohen Gadol and the Mamzer were opposing litigants in a Beis Din, neither of them would have any sort of preference in the way they were treated, or any sort of presumption of credibility.

    The Torah is absolutely egalitarian.

    #1877647
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Catch,
    My understanding is, that The Titanic crew should have focused on saving as many lives in a calm and efficient manner. When time is of essence, there can be no hierarchy at the risk of losing an extra life.

    #1877674
    Joseph
    Participant

    N0m: If a ship is sinking and there aren’t sufficient lifeboats, the crew MUST regulate who gets on the lifeboats and who does not. Otherwise everyone (i.e. too many people than the lifeboat can handle, causing it to sink) will jump in.

    In fact, on the Titanic itself that’s exactly what happened. Some men jumped into the lifeboats even though the crew said women and children only. The crew had to, more than once, pull out their revolver and (in some cases) shoot into the air to order those guys out so they could give the slot to a woman.

    (Obviously had it been a Jewish controlled boat, they’d have regulated it for the men to board first.)

    #1877765
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Totally off topic but this topic veered from racism to halacha of saving lives, I was in Halifax NS and in the Jewish Steerage victims are buried in the Jewish Cemetery there.

    #1877869
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    I apologize for wasting time. I have not looked at any of your sources yet. I will reply soon based on what I think now. First let me address The Titanic one more time. The lack of lifeboats is what I had in mind when I wrote calmly. It is the obligation of the crew, to find as many solutions as possible. Such as makeshift rafts, and inflatable devices. Not to wander around the boat calling, Kohen, Kohen… is there a kohen here? Like, really?!?!?
    But these are random points, that do not address the central issue. If there would be a single file line to get into the boats, no woman would be obligated to allow a man to go before her. Who would have that obligation? Nobody. Ain dochen nefesh mipnei nefesh. And, when they crowded on the edge of the deck, the obligation of the one who is helping people into the boat, is to focus on the closest one. Again, ain dochen nefesh mipnei nefesh. Once the boat is full, the man who jumped in is a rodef. It doesn’t matter that they did not follow a hierarchy. Please clarify your stance on not pushing away any life. I already understand my own position.
    The scenario in the ER is without details. You do not know what they have. All we know is that the woman collapsed, and needs immediate care. You would let the woman die, because maybe the man might collapse also?!?

    #1877967
    Joseph
    Participant

    N0m: On the Titanic there simply were no other available rafts or inflatable anything to utilize in the high seas. And there were no neatly formed lines waiting to enter lifeboats. Passengers simply amassed on the deck where the lifeboats were being launched. The crew also believed they had sufficient time to organize a triage of who would disembark first unto the lifeboats.

    Asking to form a line, itself, is a form of triage. But that isn’t the method of triage Halacha gives. Asking to form a line of men on the right and of women on the left could be requested just as easily as asking for a single line. All the Halachic sources say to triage — and tell us how to triage. There’s no reason to be reluctant to triage when there isn’t resources for all. You can’t have a free for all where everyone tries to jump into the lifeboat simultaneously before space runs out and then fight afterwards which 30 people were the last in putting it 30 over capacity.

    #1878193
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    You keep saying what happened to keep out the halachah of ein dochen nefesh mipnei nefesh, but insisting that the hierarchy of the Mishna be followed. Why does only one halacha apply? And that is the halachah that is/was not codified anywhere, as I will demonstrate in my next post.

    #1878224
    Joseph
    Participant

    N0m: You’re going in circles. You’re misapplying “Ain dochen nefesh mipnei nefesh.” A) You’re using it to claim that the Halacha (and it is undisputed that it is Halacha as I cited above from numerous Halachic sources) in Horayos doesn’t apply. How can you claim to erase Horayos? How can you disregard the Halacha from Horayos?

    And B) Ain dochen nefesh mipnei nefesh isn’t applicable since the crew, by mathematical fact, MUST choose who are the few that can be saved, since there isn’t enough to save all. Each individual passenger has no claim to a seat in the still unoccupied lifeboats. The crew has the right to decide who can enter. (Otherwise they’ll be chaos and everyone will sink.) Just as an Emergency Room with insufficient space must choose who to admit. You can’t just walk into the hospital and jump into an unused hospital bed and yell Ain dochen nefesh mipnei nefesh.

    That’s why Horayos comes in and determines the triage order.

    #1878239
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Mishna on Horayos 13 ‘A man comes before a woman to enable life and to return a lost article. A woman comes before a man for clothing and to remove from captivity. If they are to suffer indignity, the man comes before the woman.’ The Mishna listed two concepts for each gender. The next Mishna (the last in the tractate) list the hierarchy of Kohen, Levi, Yisroel, Mamzer, Nissin, Etc. But the Talmid Chacham would precede them all.
    There are two points to define, what is “enable life” and why is a man first. Rambam on the Mishna: “You already know that thenitrety of mitzvos obligate men and only some obligate women, as was clarified in Meseches Kiddushin. And he is sanctified more than her. Hence, he is preceded to ‘enable life’.” Rambam hilchos Matnos Aniyim 8:15 “The woman comes before the man to feed, to clothe, and to remove from captivity. Because it is for the man to dispense (necessities) not the woman, and her shame is great.” The Rambam codifies the second concept of the Mishna, but not the first. Also, the Rambam does not explain what it means to ‘enable life’. Though the Rambam famously codifies that we do not give preference to one life over another in Hilchos Rotzeach 1:9. I would be very happy if you can point me to a Rambam that I am unaware of.
    The gemara in Kesubos (67) states that an orphaned girl is provided for before an orphaned boy. Rashi clarifies ‘providing’ charity for food. However, the Rashba explains it to mean clothing in line with second concept of our Mishna. But for food the orphaned boy precedes her as the first concept of the Mishna. Rashba concludes from the verse, “and your brother shall live from you” that, ‘your brother precedes your sister’. This last line seems to be based on Rebbi Akiva’s (BM 62) statement that, “your life precedes your brother’s life.’ This is in regard to two travelers in the dessert, and one of them runs out of water. He may keep his own water to himself, in order to survive. But Rebbi Akiva is not stating that one may cause injury to a fellow Jew to prolong his own life. This is a solid source for the Rashba because it refers to food supply as life. It follows that the Rashba is not reading the Mishna as triage. Rather as ownership of the food supply. Therefore, this would not be applicable to hospitals or sinking ships. Moreover, it is known that a woman is not appointed over charity funds (see BB 8). then, it is possible, that a man receiving charity first, is only because he is receiving from other men. But if a woman had a private charity fund, then she would be required to feed woman first. The reson to understand the Rashba like this, is that the Gemara in Kesubos clearly states the reasomn of the Rambam that is the way of a man to provide for himself. Which applies to food just as much as clothes. The only reason to separate the two, is based on the verse ‘live with you’. Additionally, we would have to contend with a difference between the Rambam and The Rashba if a woman provides food for herself.
    Dear Joseph, it is a bit long but the point is that life saving triage being done through a hierarchy is not found from either the Rambam or the Rashba. I will continue with Tur and SA in my next post.

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