January 2, 2013 5:32 am at 5:32 am #607667chalilavchasMember
What did the dirty diaper-throwing individuals hope to accomplish? (I cant believe what I just read and what I am writing of). Did any of them think they would have any positive effect on anything?
Will these individuals be punished?
How can they be taught to stop doing things like that?
Who can stop them best?January 2, 2013 6:45 am at 6:45 am #917382EY MomParticipant
First of all, don’t necessarily believe everything you read, certainly not before checking it out. There was once a report of people throwing dirty diapers at the Women at the Wall. Pray tell, where did they get dirty diapers at the Kosel? It later turned out to be false.
But assuming that this story is true, the answer to your question, unfortunately, is that they do not hope to accomplish anything at all. These are people who have a very long history with the establishment in EY, and they are not forgetting it. It is warping their worldview. They are angry and expressing it in what is obviously a highly negative and destructive fashion.
Will they be punished? Go find them first.
How can they be taught to stop doing things like that? Probably, they can’t. Realize that these people are not the ones sitting in the beis midrash learning with hasmadah, or who have regular jobs.
Who can stop them best? No one. The Eidah HaChareidis condemns these things on a regular basis and it doesn’t help. The only thing that might stop them is if the press – chareidi and otherwise – would begin to totally ignore them and act as if they don’t exist. But since the secular press LOVES these stories, I wouldn’t bet on that happening too soon.
Probably all we can do is make clear that they do not speak for or represent the mainstream chareidi community, however defined. Truth to tell, they don’t even represent Yerushalmim. They represent themselves.January 2, 2013 9:43 am at 9:43 am #917383
Everything EY Mom said.January 2, 2013 10:48 am at 10:48 am #917384greatestMember
Well said, EY Mom.January 2, 2013 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #917385zahavasdadParticipant
I disagree, they CAN be stopped. It is known who they are
throw them in JAIL with the other crimnals , They can eat the other slop the other prisoners eat. Treat them like all the other prisoners.January 2, 2013 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #917386WIYMember
There are approximately 100 of these bored unemployed violent bitter fellows living within a community of about 100000 people that are giving the rest a bad name. The truth is that they should be handed over to the police and I have no clue why they are tolerated because they clearly take directives from none of the Rabbonim.January 2, 2013 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #917387hershiMember
What is the penalty for misdemeanor littering? 400 NS fine?January 2, 2013 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #917388
They can be stopped when the police want to stop using them to make all of us look bad.January 2, 2013 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #917389popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I once upon a time saw them throwing rocks at cars on bar ilan on shabbos (at the bottom of the hill, by shmuel hanavi). They weren’t chareidim; they weren’t dressed like chareidim; they were shababniks.January 2, 2013 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #917390akupermaParticipant
Perhaps they should throw rocks – big ones, ones that can cause real damage. The Arabs tend to prefer things that go “boom” – which is what the zionists used when they wanted to protest (note – they didn’t throw diapers at the King David Hotel).
Perhaps it might be better to have totally orderly, peaceful civil disobedience. Such were used by African Americans in the United States and worked out well (albeit the vast majority of states had already banned racial discrimination and regarded the southerns as jerks for their racial policies). Also the American legal system
was open to civil rights suits, whereas the Israeli legal system is controlled by a self-perpetuating system that reflects the viciously anti-religious elites who dominated Israel in the 1950s.
Given that in that part of the world, protests tend to involve a lot more than tossing diapers, we shouldn’t complain. The real issue is that the rulers of Eretz Yisrael want to surpress Torah Judaism no less than the “Hellenists” did, but that the Hareidim don’t want to rely on a miracle and take up armed resistance (you can find a full halachic discussion of why not in the original Satmarer’s seferim).January 2, 2013 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #917391uneeqMember
Popa, How DARE you spread such LIES!? They weren’t “shababniks” as you claim, it was OBVIOUSLY charedim in disguise.January 2, 2013 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #917392MDGParticipant
“Popa, How DARE you spread such LIES!? They weren’t “shababniks” as you claim, it was OBVIOUSLY charedim in disguise.”
uneeq, Do you mean to say that they were Chareidim pretending to be Shabakniks pretending to be chareidim?January 3, 2013 5:24 am at 5:24 am #917393Loyal JewParticipant
Assuming this happened at all, the way to stop it is the way we stopped the assault on in Emanuel a year or so ago: a mass turnout led by Gedolim against the provocation of sending soldiers to gawk at the zoo animals. Until this happens, it will be dealt with by the few “extremists” who truly care.January 3, 2013 5:41 am at 5:41 am #917394chalilavchasMember
The truth is that they should be handed over to the police and I have no clue why they are tolerated because they clearly take directives from none of the Rabbonim.
Please, I assume they daven somewhere and send their children to Yeshivas with Rabbonim…. and I assume they want to stay in Shuls and want their children to stay in Yeshivahs. They dont all daven at home or homeschool, do they?January 3, 2013 5:53 am at 5:53 am #917395MammeleParticipant
Excuse my ignorance, but what’s a shababnik?January 3, 2013 6:58 am at 6:58 am #917396
Shababniks are OTD youth who are recruited and egged on by police and ShaBaK shtinkers in charedi dress who themselves are OTD and want to make the whole community look bad. Another term used for them is “plitei hayeshivot” – refugees from the yeshivas. They do not listen to any rabbonim, unless you consider Yoilish Krauss, an obvious shtinker, to be a rov. (He is a rav, but his title is in effect only after shkia.)
I saw the same types that Popa saw in the same area. When I saw them one Friday night years ago, I was walking with a friend, who today is a city councilman for Aguda/UTJ, and who is an amateur chazzan. He started to sing: “Shabbos hee melizoik…” to the shababnikim (and we know what follows that phrase). The kids were bothering more frum Yiden with their noise than they were doing anything to close a street that hardly gets any traffic anyway on Shabbos.January 3, 2013 7:33 am at 7:33 am #917397EY MomParticipant
Chalilavchas, whether they daven in shuls or not is irrelevant. If they would be thrown into jail, they would be regarded as martyrs by their very few admirers.
Besides which, the poster about civil disobedience happens to be correct. These things upset us because of the chilul Hashem involved. But in terms of protests, if this would be any other population it would go quietly into the night. In terms of doing anything illegal, what is it – disturbing the peace?
Please be aware that there is a HUGE double standard here in EY. Chareidim can be arrested for incitement when they compare police chiefs to Nazis, but when Leftist columnists compare Netanyahu to a Nazi no one says boo. I am not defending Nazi comparisons of anybody, but if it’s grounds for arrest then it should be across the board – which it never is.
The same goes for this kind of stuff.January 3, 2013 8:37 am at 8:37 am #917398danielaParticipant
they’re gangs of ODT kids who dress like they used to, and among other things, they harass cars driving on Shabbat.January 3, 2013 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #917399
viciously anti-religious elites
Please write “elites” in quotes. The tzioini “elites” were the lowest of losers from the worst families in Europe. They betrayed their betters during the churban as a way to get revenge and build their new Moishe Kapoyer society, with them on top leading supposedly spartan lives but in reality siphoning away plenty, and with those who should have been on top, like refugees who had been successful in Iraq and Morocco before the tzioini agitation drove them out, landing on the bottom.
They also created the ugly situation that causes charedi extremism. The old Yishuv did not need an army because it got along fine with the Arabs, and even managed to buy land for expansion from the Arabs. Along came these lowlife baryoinim with ideas of a state, and they have the chutzpah to force bnei Torah into the army that they need to fight the wars that THEY started.
A “national homeland” in the old Mandate did not mean a state. The tzioinim themselves caused the limits on immigration during the war with their agitation for a state.
Now, we all suffer because of this miserable entity, a secular state on holy soil, as kosher as a loaf of bread on a seder plate.
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That being said, we do NOT fight the medine with dirty diapers. We ignore their provocations, and remember that Hashem will take care of those who need to be taken care of. Former police chief Nisso Shaham, whose grube pomim is that of a descendant of the infamous Jewish stevedores who ran mafia theft and extortion rings at Ottoman ports to the detriment of Jewish merchants, fell fast and hard after making charedi lives miserable in Y-m for a few weeks. Even Yoilish Krauss (to say nothing of responsible askonim like my friend who sang to the shababnikim) is having his last laugh at Shaham’s expense.
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