February 13, 2009 5:08 am at 5:08 am #638445moish01Member
yeah ames, but you might never get past the first date.February 13, 2009 5:34 am at 5:34 am #638446asdfghjklParticipant
ames: i liked what you said!!! once again, great to have ya back!!!February 13, 2009 8:18 am at 8:18 am #638447
makeup is not tznius and is assur. it’s only point is to draw attention and look like the goyim.February 13, 2009 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #638448beaconParticipant
makeup is not tznius and is assur. it’s only point is to draw attention and look like the goyim.
Ok. Not even going there….February 13, 2009 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #638449
Flatbush: woah!!! That’s NOT true, makeup assur??? No!!February 13, 2009 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #638450
flatbush- does it have to be either all or nothing? why go to extremes? where is makeup assur? makeup that enhances a bit, and fits in to the natural look of the face is muttur. Extreme makeup is assur and not tzniyusdik.
I always take the middle road- what’s wrong with that?February 13, 2009 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #638451
that was not my opinion. i left the computer logged on and someone else wrote that!! i do not hold that at all!!!! sorry everybody!!!February 13, 2009 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #638452
thank goodnessFebruary 13, 2009 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #638453asdfghjklParticipant
ames: ha that’s real funny!!!February 13, 2009 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #638454
Ames: haa!!! Omg my friend has such ayain hara u think its from that?!?! She ALWAYS wears black eyeliner lol!!! And in the navi it says the women used to rip their eyes with makeup- that meant eye liner cuz it looks like a rip in the eyeFebruary 13, 2009 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #638455JosephParticipant
Don’t the Bais Yaakov’s prohibit makeup?February 13, 2009 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #638456
think so joseph. why would you need makeup to go to schoolFebruary 14, 2009 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #638457eyesopenMember
Marry someone whose looks you like because there is a good chance that your children will come out looking like your spouse!February 15, 2009 12:26 am at 12:26 am #638458
Joseph: to school yes. If u were asking that bc I said my friend always wears, I didn’t mean to schoolFebruary 15, 2009 3:25 am at 3:25 am #638459yossieaParticipant
Isn’t going to an ayin harah lady pure 100% avodah zorah?February 15, 2009 6:49 am at 6:49 am #638460
When is says in the navi (yishaya) ??????? ????? one of the miforshim (I think rashi)says that it means winking, the DRASH is that it’s a VERY dark color BLUE!
Also it’s totally ASSUR to go to school wearing make up!February 15, 2009 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #638461
H2: please explain to me WHY its assur to wear makeup to school?? I think its pointless to wear to school, but not assur!!!February 15, 2009 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #638462
syriansephardi: when I said assur I meant it’s a real big no-no!
ames: I’m not sure what school you’re referring to but in my school they never let you wear make up. A few weeks ago my grade had a Shabbos together and teacher gave a whole speech on how we may not wear evena drop of make up that Shabbos. She said we shouldn’t wear make up ’till we’re 25 (OK, she did exaggerate)! Another teacher (the one who taught us that pasuk in yishaya) said that the only reason someone should wear make up is for her husband or when dating so a girl my age should never put on make up. In short they do tell you not to wear even out of school.February 15, 2009 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #638463
syrian, you realize its pointless to wear makeup to school, since your not trying to attract anyone at an all-girls school. That reasoning should explain why a Jewish schoolgirl (or anyone not in shidduchim yet) should not wear makeup outside of school either.
Tanchuma Vayishlach Piskah Hey says that makeup and perfume is intended to beautify a wife for her husband, and that beyond that it should be used scarcely if at all.February 15, 2009 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #638464
ames- I’m talking about all bais yacovs in general and they strongly discourage make up really until 12th grade graduation pics (that’s already for shidduchim). Even then they onlt let certain stuff like lip gloss, light eye shadow… And you can’t wear lipstick, base, blush, eye liner…February 15, 2009 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #638465
Zalman: I don’t mean this in a mean wat at all I just don’t understand- wat r u trying to say?February 15, 2009 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #638466
Zalman: I re-read what u wrote a few times and now I understand what u mean, I agree that a girl whose not married or up do shidduchim shouldn’t really wear makeup (they can wear lip gloss and mascara, that’s not a big deal but they shouldn’t be wearing the other stuff) I personally don’t like make up at all, I think natural is much prettier but if ur going out u gotta wear! (And don’t over fo it)February 15, 2009 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #638467
ames, not everyone does things correctly. That is no raya (proof).
Did you see my reference to the Tanchuma Vayishlach above, regarding makeup and perfume?February 15, 2009 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #638468
How is it tznius for you to be engaging in a discussion with young women regarding makeup?February 15, 2009 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #638469
The letzanim ask questions like that. The Rabbonim and the Seforim discuss these halachic issues, and they are discussed in the Beis Medrash as well.
And who is a young girl here? I’m not aware of most posters age or gender, unless they use an obvious name. (I have no idea what you are.)February 15, 2009 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #638470
Ames: not all girls can live up to their schools standardsFebruary 15, 2009 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #638471
Ames, I didn’t mean they disobey rules, I meant their not up to thatFebruary 15, 2009 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #638472oomisParticipant
Girls should wear makeup if they feel they need it. Not everyone is blessed with clear skin, attractive features, and natural blush. Many girls are pale and washed out and very plain, some even homely, without makeup. Should they not feel better about themselves? There is no question that wearing makeup makes most normal, healthy girls feel and look better. It makes pretty girls stunning, and makes mousy girls prettier. Maybe we should all wear burlap sacks as well, since clothing really only needs to be functional to cover up the body. it would be wonderful if no one was attracted to a partner based on looks, but ther eality is that we are, and if a little makeup helps, so be it, and B”H we have many very natural makeup approaches.February 15, 2009 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #638473
Using an insulting name does not lend credibility to your stance. Yes, the Rabbonim and Seforim discuss these halachik issues. Frum men don’t discuss these issue with young women they meet on the street and on the internet. These issues are discussed in the Bais Medrash as well, not on the streetcorner or on blogs.
I’m not sure who you refer to by “young girl”, but I referred to young women, and you know very well who these are. Is discussing makeup with strange older women any more tznius?
I think some frum men are already past the slippery slope stage, engaging in conversations which are an astounding breach of our Mesorah of separation. The informal and highly personal dialogue found here between the genders on such a topic evidences the compromised state of tznius that is unfortunately seen with increasing frequency, particularly on the internet.
If you can handle the constructive criticism without resorting to insults, Zalman, you are definitely on the road up.February 15, 2009 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #638474BogenParticipant
Oz VeHadar Levushah
Items of other cultures/highly fashionable items:
1. It is ossur min HaTorah for a man or woman to conduct themselves in a way that is typical of the cultures of the Umos HaOlam.
2. The issur applies to three types of garments:
(a) Strange looking garments
(b) Garments that project a feeling of superiority
(c) A garment that is pritzusdik:
The poskim write that a garment for females that onlooker to gaze at the wearer is subject to the issur of b’cholkoseihem. Being a pritzusdik garment, it belongs to other cultures and is foreign to Yiddishkeit (mekoros in appendex 46:7 and Responsa Divrei Chaim 1:30.)
It follows that all forms of alluring dress, jewlery, makeup, and perfume are doubly forbidden (except when a woman is alone with her husband.) Firstly, it is pritzus to go around in such a way, and one who does so transgresses the issurim of “And your camp shall be holy” Devarim 23:15 AND Lifnei Ivur “Not to cause others to sin.” Secondly she transgresses the issur of b’chulkoseihem – the issur of dressing in garments that are distictly designed to fit in with the pursuits of other societies.
Chazal say (Sanhedrin 37a) that the word “Beged” could also be read as “Boged” (traitor). With a garment a woman can either adorn herself, or chas v’shalom turn traitor to her people. See Yeshaya 24:16 where this tragic misuse of garments is spelt out in no uncertain terms.February 16, 2009 12:27 am at 12:27 am #638475
Your comments fulfill the prototypical definition of letzanus. I don’t know why you need to advertise your age or gender online, but no one would or needed to know it.
If you are opposed to certain halachos, so be it. Don’t slyly project that rejection on others.
This too is said as constructive criticism that you can hopefully take to heart.February 16, 2009 1:45 am at 1:45 am #638476kiruvwifeMember
To doubly clarify what R’ Bogen posted (I’m assuming a male title) the key adjective here is alluring.
So, don’t wear alluring clothes/makeup on a date. Do be nice looking, clean, put together, and tznius–that is dignified as all Bnos Yisroel should be.February 16, 2009 3:43 am at 3:43 am #638477
I’m sorry that the mussar you were given did not have the positive effect intended. But continual letzanus is not an appropriate response and I truly believe you are better than that.
There isn’t any reason you or any poster needs to identify their age or gender as it is better left unstated. And unless someone is blogging on yw day and night, the likelihood is they will not know most others biographical data.
Again, I say this with the utmost respect and hope that you can do better in the future. Everyone makes mistakes and no one is holding a grudge against you.February 16, 2009 3:58 am at 3:58 am #638478Hill of BeansMember
In the Sefer that Bogen quoted, the alluring is referring only to the clothing (“alluring clothing”), while the rest of the items (jewlery, makeup, and perfume) are said to be assur unless used when a woman is alone with her husband.February 16, 2009 4:06 am at 4:06 am #638479
I am truly sorry that you deflect sincere and constructive criticism by pretending your assertions for your defense are “Mussar”. I give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are in your twenties or thirties and have difficulty with introspection. That comes with time.
I again suggest that you print out your post and its dialogue context, for this and other threads in which you have participated, and seek guidance from your Rosh Yeshiva. Perhaps your spiritual mentor will have hashpa’a over you, perhaps not. Regardless, I believe you understand my points fully, and look forward to posts from you that truly reflect a Ben Torah.
Hatzlacha Rabbah.February 16, 2009 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #638480yossieaParticipant
Oz Vehadar Levusha is not a halcha sefer and should not be used to pasken.February 16, 2009 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #638481
tiz a good this topic is directly followed by “A Humorous Item”… it’s getting kinda hot in here. Zalman & Bemused- stop stabbing at each other. This is just a general discussion- remember?February 16, 2009 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #638482
Good point :). And even if it’s hot, just make sure you’re all wearing appropriate attire… jk 🙂February 17, 2009 12:27 am at 12:27 am #638483The Big OneParticipant
Oz Vehadar Levusha is a Halacha Sefer with an appendix containing the mekoros.
Zalman was giving tochocho.February 17, 2009 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #638484anon for thisParticipant
I believe there was a story, perhaps mentioned in the gemara, about a man who lost his wealth & was forced to perform menial labor in order to earn a living. His wife used to dress in beautiful clothing & go out to meet her husband at the end of his workday, in order to help him feel better. If I remember correctly, she is praised for this behavior. Does anyone know the source for this anecdote?February 17, 2009 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #638485gavra_at_workParticipant
The Big One:
Welcome back! I didn’t expect you to say anything else. ROTFLOLFebruary 18, 2009 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #638486myshadowMember
My school held very strongly with the sefer oz vehadar levusha. What makes it not a halacha seferFebruary 18, 2009 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #638487RoshYeshivahMember
This thread reminds me of my wife saying” this outfit is chalemodi and that one is more brisi the third one is bar mitzva style” and so forth.February 18, 2009 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #638488myshadowMember
lol I love hearing, this outfit is good for chol hamoed! It’s so classic!February 18, 2009 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #638490TJMember
Sometimes, Oz Vehadar Levusha quotes sources that don’t clearly support what the sefer claims that they do. For example, the Gemara in Pesachim teaches that the Torah doesn’t mention the word “merkav” in connection with a zavah because it is indelicate to refer to a woman riding an animal in a straddled position under normal circumstances. This is because under normal circumstances it is only considered modest to ride sidesaddled. However, the gemara teaches that in cases where circumstances require even modest woman to ride straddled, such as when riding with children or riding on a mountainous trail or riding on a camel, it is fine to mention that they were riding straddled on the animal. The upshot of the gemara is that it is not lashon nekiya to reference behavior that is less than perfectly tzniyus. Derech agav, we see that it is considered untziyus for a woman to ride an animal straddled if she doesn’t have a reason to do so.
This is the source that Oz Vehadar Levusha uses for saying that it is assur for women to wear pants. It is one thing to assur women wearing pants, but it is another to cite a source that is tangentially relevant at best.
This was just an example, but there are a lot of things that the sefer tries to assur that are not properly supported. Like video conferencing, for example. I can understand some people wanting to assur it, but saying that it is unequivocally assur is a ridiculous stretch.
Five years ago, my Rosh Yeshiva told me that he was sent a copy of the sefer by the author for review. My RY had about 400 “he’aros” on the sefer, many of which were arguments against different things written in the sefer. The author responded that he hoped to address many of those points in a later edition of Oz Vehadar Levusha. Does anyone know if a new edition has been published since then?February 18, 2009 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #638491
RY- you live in willi??February 19, 2009 2:36 am at 2:36 am #638492The Big OneParticipant
Oz Vehadar Levusha is used in the Bais Yaakov’s. Today we suffer from a great machla of pritzus, that must be fought with all our might. You literally cannot walk in the streets of some of the frummest places, without running into “frum” pritzus. It is the Yetzer Hora of our generation.February 19, 2009 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #638494SJSinNYCMember
It is the Yetzer Hora of our generation.
I thought that was the internet :-/
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