October 27, 2016 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #618577
All us guys have been told in our yeshivos that the ultimate schar in gan eden, is that we will sit and learn in beis medrash shel maalah for all eternity. OK. But what about the women? Do they learn too? Do they continue working to support their husbands? 🙂October 27, 2016 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #1189811theprof1Participant
They enjoy the spiritual feeling of being with the shechina.October 27, 2016 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #1189812
They support their husbands and sons in the Bais Medrash shel Gan Eden and listen to the Kol Torah and shiurim emanating from the men’s Talmud Torah.October 27, 2016 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1189813
They learn Torah of course! And when they get there, they have all the Torah knowledge that their husbands learned in their zchus.October 27, 2016 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1189814
theprof1: “They enjoy the spiritual feeling of being with the shechina.”
+1October 27, 2016 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1189815
And Joseph, I suppose you think that before girl babies are born, instead of learning Torah, they learn how to make potato kugel?October 27, 2016 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #1189816ubiquitinParticipant
This question is silly
Obviously she does housework so that her husband and sons can learnOctober 27, 2016 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #1189817
Theprof1, I was told many times that the meaning of that is learning.October 28, 2016 12:03 am at 12:03 am #1189818
Big Golem: “Theprof1, I was told many times that the meaning of that is learning.”
If that is the case, then clearly the women learn in Gan Eden.October 28, 2016 12:07 am at 12:07 am #1189819Abba_SParticipant
Sit next to their husbandOctober 28, 2016 12:35 am at 12:35 am #1189820
What if they don’t have a husband? They can’t go to Gan Eden?October 28, 2016 1:01 am at 1:01 am #1189821
If she had multiple gilguls, did she go to her husband from her first lifetime or her last lifetime?October 28, 2016 1:10 am at 1:10 am #1189822
Rav Leff talks about that in the recording I mentioned in another thread. Actually, he talks about that in terms of Techiyas Hamaisim.
In terms of gilgulim, can the same person be both a man and a woman? I don’t see why not. I don’t think Neshamas have genders.October 28, 2016 1:22 am at 1:22 am #1189823
Those of you who say the women learn as well, what if they don’t know how? It is only in the last century or so, that, thanks to bais yakov, frum girls can learn something. For many centuries prior, the vast majority of women were totally ignorant, many, despite being extremely pious couldn’t read a siddur. And we know that the bais yakov was met with great opposition.
So, for all those centuries, what did these women do in gan eden?October 28, 2016 3:47 am at 3:47 am #1189824yehudayonaParticipant
Abba_S, mixed seating in Gan Eden?! Chas v’sholom! Look what happened last time man and woman interacted in Gan Eden. I think it’s in this week’s parsha.October 28, 2016 4:57 am at 4:57 am #1189825Avi KParticipant
Joseph, that question very much bothered a man who had a lousy first marriage but a great second marriage. He asked Rav Avraham Twersky for a pesak but I do not remember the answer. I suppose it would depend on which was the actual zivug rishon (according to the Zohar it could be the second). I would also imagine that she would not go to a man who divorced her as he gave a get keritut.October 28, 2016 5:03 am at 5:03 am #1189826
So maybe it IS a good idea to get divorced if you have a bad marriage so you don’t have to get stuck with the person for eternity! 🙂October 28, 2016 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1189827Avi KParticipant
Lilmod, instead of tow people being miserable four can be happy.October 28, 2016 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1189828
What do goyim do in gan eden? (Those that get in.)October 28, 2016 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1189829
Goyim go to gan eden?October 29, 2016 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1189830Person1Member
Humour and interesting theories aside for a moment, I just want to point out that the idea of getting Sachar (reward) for every good deed is much more importnat and prevalent in the Torah than the idea of learning Torah in Gan Eden. So everyone who reads this please remember that Hashem will give you everything you deserve for every mitzvah you’ve ever done in ways that you couldn’t possibly fathom now.October 29, 2016 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #1189831
Goyim who keep the 7 Mitzvos b’nei Noach have a portion in Olam Haba. I don’t know if that is the same as Gan Eden.
The only true reward is being close to Hashem. So presumably anyone who goes to Olam Haba gets to be close to Hashem. I would think that being close to Hashem = learning Torah and that would mean that goyim learn Torah too, but I don’t know. After all, goyim also have a mark above their lips, so maybe they also learned Torah before they were born. They do have a Neshama after all.October 29, 2016 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #1189832
AVi K.: “Lilmod, instead of tow people being miserable four can be happy.”
I agree. But I’m still trying to convince some others around here.October 30, 2016 3:43 am at 3:43 am #1189833It is Time for TruthParticipant
And Males who worked all their life, what do they do?October 30, 2016 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #1189834
“Those of you who say the women learn as well, what if they don’t know how? It is only in the last century or so, that, thanks to bais yakov, frum girls can learn something. For many centuries prior, the vast majority of women were totally ignorant, many, despite being extremely pious couldn’t read a siddur.”
We can say the same of all the many, many men in previous generation who did not know how to read or learn. The ameratzim, the poshute yidden who served Hashem with full hearts but very little knowledge. What about them?October 30, 2016 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1189835
Sorry Joseph, women are not just passive players in Judaism who live vicariously through their husbands and sons.
Imagine if you were a woman. Would you really want to live such a life? Where your whole worth and olam haba depended on your husband and you needed to be a meek obedient puppet to the men in your life, where your opinions and needs were worth less than theirs?
Not everything in a woman’s life is about her husband and sons. And neither is her afterlife.Women have deep, intimate connection with Hashem too, very possibly more than men.October 30, 2016 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1189836
Gofish – I really think Joseph was thinking. Obviously, the men don’t need to be supported in Olam Haba.
Also, I am wondering if Neshamas even have genders in which case the whole question is irrelevant. (Actually, it’s irrelevant anyhow, but that would make it more so.)October 30, 2016 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1189837
gofish, Jewish men have been (by necessity) literate throughout the ages of Jewish history.
Regarding the rest of your comment, see:October 30, 2016 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1189838
“Also, I am wondering if Neshamas even have genders in which case the whole question is irrelevant. (Actually, it’s irrelevant anyhow, but that would make it more so.)”
I’ve learned that Yitzchok had a feminine neshama, and during akeidas Yitzchok it was switched for a masculine one… So apparently that may be so.October 30, 2016 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1189839
Joseph, why do you so fiercely feel the need to assert male supremacy? Why do you feel threatened by women and feel like you always need to always be in control of women, prove some contrived superiority of men, and constantly write leading questions like this? Why?October 30, 2016 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1189840
“Joseph, why do you so fiercely feel the need to assert male supremacy? Why do you feel threatened by women and feel like you always need to always be in control of women, prove some contrived superiority of men, and constantly write leading questions like this? Why?”
Ditto. I’ve been wondering the same myself. I can debate your sources with you and the accuracy/inaccuracy of your comments (when I have time to actually look up all the sources), but I think that Gofish’s question may be a better one.October 30, 2016 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1189841
I’ll note that that is a comment from someone who just days ago questioned the need to be frum because she disagreed with Chazal’s statements, gofish.October 30, 2016 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1189842
Hey gofish, you ask, imagine if you were a woman would you want such a life. No need to ask. Aren’t the girls told in bais yakov that their greatest aspiration should be to support the husband in kollel and be mother to many kids? The thousands of girls who go through bais yaakov and seminary wanting the learning boy and kollel wife lifestyle, see themselves exactly as you’ve described they don’t.
To add, the chafetz chaim in his intro to mishna brura, says goyim have no afterlife. When they die they simply cease to exist.October 30, 2016 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1189843
“I’ll note that that is a comment from someone who just days ago questioned the need to be frum because she disagreed with Chazal’s statements, gofish.”
Is that your answer? An ad hominem attack? Smooth way to try to evade my question, but my question remains unanswered.
For the record, I did not question the need to be frum. When you posted a bunch of unconnected lines which seem to degrade, objectify, and shame women, I agreed with lilmod that there must be a deeper meaning (or it was taken completely out of context), because which woman would want to be part of a culture that literally thinks that she is an urn filled with excrement, or that she was created solely for jewelry, or that her husband falls into gehenom if he ever listens to her advice?October 30, 2016 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1189844
Joseph – I don’t think that’s what Gofish meant by her comments. She was simply pointing out that there clearly has to be a deeper meaning to Chazal’s comments. She only said this because the truth of Yiddishkeit is so obvious to her that she realized there must be something deeper going on here.
I am also interested in hearing the answer to Gofish’s question. I don’t mean it in an attacking way – I just think it’s interesting that you are always quoting certain types of sources to make certain types of points- and I am curious as to why that is. I wonder if you have stopped to think about why that is. (and again I’m not attacking – just questioning).October 30, 2016 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1189845
How I wish we could all get along.
HaShem, in His wisdom, made both versions. Both TOGETHER bring something to the table. And make HaShem’s world a better place. Is a man “Better”?!? Is a woman?!? How silly. Anyone who has to keep harping on this topic…. shows ….
And I would suspect that Torah learning, Torah idea, etc, ought to be lishmah, not c”v ?????, to debate, to prove someone’s a fool. That’s not why we learn HaShem’s holy Torah.October 30, 2016 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1189846
Big Golem – in the Bais Yaakovs they don’t describe it in the same terms as Joseph is. In fact, in the Bais Yaakovs, they very much empower and uplift girls.
Yes, they teach that a woman’s main tafkid is to be a wife and mother but they explain that this is because of her high level that she was chosen for this very important tafkid, and they explain how it is part of her Avodas Hashem.
They also teach that even though this is her main tafkid, it is not her only tafkid.October 30, 2016 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1189847
LF – well-said, as always!October 30, 2016 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #1189848
Joseph, I don’t have time to go through all your sources now, but one very important point that should be made is that all these sources are talking about women’s role in this world. It should be clear that this has nothing to do with her reward in Gan Eden or her worth as a person and as an Eved Hashem.
At the end of the day, each person’s tafkid is to serve Hashem. We each have different ways of doing that, but we are all partners in serving Hashem period. That is the only thing that matters. And anyone who is overly interested in proving whose tafkid is “more important” is missing the point.October 30, 2016 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #1189849
lilmod, her question is based on a false premise and is a canard. Additionally, today’s society in the secular world, and to an extent it has creeped in among some who call themselves frum, operates under the false assumption that there is little or no differences between the abilities and natural functions and duties of men and women. Quoting the various citations from Tanach, Mamrei Chazal, Rishonim and Achronim disabuses that popular notion.October 30, 2016 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1189850
Thank you, lilmod. I think it would be a bizayon to insinuate, as one poster constantly does, that Chazal were so disrespectful to and callous of women. There obviously must be deeper meanings, because taken at face value it is very disturbing and contradicts what BY girls everywhere I taught. And if men really believed that, I can’t imagine any happy, healthy marriages based on such beliefs.October 30, 2016 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #1189851
Joseph, I know I’ve said this before, but I think it’s important to point it out again. I think that sometimes you say things that can be misunderstood and taken out of context. It is important to think about who you are speaking to and how they are likely to hear what you are saying.
I know that personally, the things you are saying don’t bother me now at this stage of my life, because I am hearing them within a certain context and worldview that I did not have when I was younger. However, if I had heard your words when I was younger, I would have heard them very differently and been much more upset than Gofish is.
I think the same ideas can be given over differently.
Why do you assume he doesn’t know that?October 30, 2016 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1189852
gofish: There’s no DEEP meaning. Plain Rashi suffices. And nothing, nothing whatsoever C”V derogatory about women. At all.October 30, 2016 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1189853
Well, Little Froggie, what does Rashi say?October 30, 2016 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1189854
Joseph, I just saw your last comment after I wrote my last comment.
I thought that was probably your reasoning and where you were coming from. I know from other things you have written that that seems to be one of your main objectives in the things that you write – that you feel (correctly so) that most people are too influenced by modern society and their hashkafos are coming from western society as opposed to the Torah. And your objective is that everyone’s hashakafos should come from the Torah. Which is a very important objective one (probably the most important objective that a person can have).
However, I am not sure that that relevant here. I think you should read my last post and think about it. I don’t think that Gofish is coming from a messed-up goyish hashkafa that there are no differences between men and women.
The reason why Feminism is less of an issue in the Bais Yaakov/Yeshivish world is because in the Bais Yaakov world they teach girls about the importance of their tafkid, and they don’t make them feel that it is a negative thing to have a different tafkid, so Bais Yaakov girls generally don’t have a problem with the fact that men and women have different tafkidim.
Feminism is a bigger problem amongst the more liberal Modern Orthodox because no one has ever explained to them the greatness of women’s role so they look at it as “less” and “bad” and to them all differences between men and women are something bad. If they understood the gadlus of women’s role, they would not feel that way.
I remember once when I was working in a very modern feminist seminary, and a girl asked me why in Aishes Chayil, it talks about the husband (“noda bashearim b’aalah”). I thought that she was probably coming from a feminist perspective and I was a bit nervous about what her reaction to my answer would be, but she actually was very impressed and thought it was beautiful.She had no problem with it – it was just a perspective she had never heard before.
A lot of times it’s about presenting things the right way. I’m not talking about apologetics -the Bais Yaakovs have no problem explaining to girls about the gadlus of their tafkid, and helping them to feel uplifted by it and not the opposite.October 30, 2016 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1189855
btw, what is a canard?October 30, 2016 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1189856
(how should I know, I only know the regular ksav)
I think Rashi says ‘A woman is for ornaments’, that her husband should buy her jewelry to bedeck herself. Derogatory?!? I’d say lucky her!!! (p.s don’t show this to Frogette… I’m still happily married)October 30, 2016 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #1189857
“Why do you assume he doesn’t know that?”
Because he obviously would have phrased things differently if he realized that he would be able to give his message over more effectively that way.
He had a message he is trying to get across as he wrote in his last post. If he thought/knew there is a better way to get it across, he obviously would have done so.
The belief is that he is giving over the message he wants to give very effectively, unfortunately.October 30, 2016 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1189858
Yes, lilmod, I do think men and women have different strengths.
And if someone believes that women’s tafkid in life is to support their husbands in kollel (which goes against the kesubah, but yes I accept that different communities have different values), I accept that as their right to live whatever lifestyle they feel brings meaning to them. I think differently, but that’s okay, there’s beauty in diversity.
But please, Joseph that is not what I am objecting to, for goodness sake! You know good and well what I am objecting to. You can’t just call women urns of excrement and constantly put them down, and then call any woman who objects to being told that she was merely created for jewelry, etc etc, that she has secular notions!
Because you’re not just saying that men and women are different, and you know it. You keep putting women down, and taking divrei chazal out of context. You’re presenting a very biased and unbalanced picture, cherry picking meforshim and providing a most unfortunate prejudiced perspective. I don’t know what your point is, but you know as well as I do that you are debasing women and not providing the full, true Torah perspective on women.October 30, 2016 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #1189859
“The belief is that he is giving over the message he wants to give very effectively, unfortunately.”
Not according to what he wrote in his last post:
“Additionally, today’s society in the secular world, and to an extent it has creeped in among some who call themselves frum, operates under the false assumption that there is little or no differences between the abilities and natural functions and duties of men and women. Quoting the various citations from Tanach, Mamrei Chazal, Rishonim and Achronim disabuses that popular notion.”
Joseph, care to comment? (so we can stop talking about you).
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