June 7, 2023 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #2197646amiricanyeshivishParticipant
And same with Palestinians and PalestineJune 7, 2023 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #2197645ywnjudyParticipant
Generic Yid vs. Genetic Yid.June 7, 2023 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #2197754Neville Chaim BerlinParticipant
“The point mentioned in this debate was not knowing toras hachasidus. That is not a factor anymore.”
Why not?June 8, 2023 10:36 am at 10:36 am #2197892
Because the lines of Chabad, Yeshivish, and Chassidush, have been redrawn. Learning Chassidus shouldn’t cause a radical shift in a yeshivaman’s thinking.June 8, 2023 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #2198161ujmParticipant
“All “Litvishe” today are either full blooded Hungarians, Romanians, Yekkes or a mix. Almost all minus the Yekkes and Oberlanders shtam from Chassidim. They just learned in “Litvish” yeshivos.
But real blue blooded “Litivise” barely exist. Same with the Poilisher. Almost the whole Ger Chassidus hails from Hungary etc.”
The Yekkes seem to have almost/mostly disappeared over the last 35 years. You barely see any Yekke bochorim wearing a Talis, whereas in ’80s and even in the ’90s you saw a lot of them in shuls all over the place. They seem to have mostly merged into the Litvish/Yeshivish world.
As far as Oberlanders, a huge portion (perhaps most) of prewar Hungarian Yidden WERE Oberlander. Over the last 35 years a huge portion (most?) Oberlanders started identifying as Chasidish. Look at Vien (where their Williamsburg Beis Medrash switched from Nusach Ashkenaz to Nusach Sefard just in the last 15 years or so) where their Rov now is referred to as a Rebbe and wears a Shtreimal, as do the vast majority of Vieners. Also look at Matersdorf/Yeshiva Ch’san Sofer. But a significant portion of Oberlanders also started identifying as Litvish. There are still a few who still identify as Oberlanders proper.June 9, 2023 12:29 am at 12:29 am #2198197Neville Chaim BerlinParticipant
“Because the lines of Chabad, Yeshivish, and Chassidush, have been redrawn. Learning Chassidus shouldn’t cause a radical shift in a yeshivaman’s thinking.”
That doesn’t mean Litvishers don’t exist. I don’t understand your point. Most of the frum velt is Litvish (and for these purposes I’m including yeshivish Sphardim), and Chassidus has very little impact on their day to day lives. I’m not debating whether that’s good or bad; this is just more of a census dispute in my mind.June 9, 2023 10:56 am at 10:56 am #2198287
My point is that telling a Litvish/Yeshivish fellow to learn Chassidus to change his understanding is not true anymore. If he thinks against Chabad before, he’ll think the same after becoming an expert on Chassidus too.June 9, 2023 10:56 am at 10:56 am #2198300ujmParticipant
Neville: Population statistics wise there are more Chasidim than all non-Chasidish frum combined. This is even true individually in the United States, in Israel and in Europe. Twenty five years ago this wasn’t the case. But mainly as a result of the comparatively much larger Chasidish birth rate, at this time the stats are what they are.
Even Lakewood is becoming more and more Chasidish. (Certainlly not a majority in Lakewood — yet.) And I don’t mean BMG bochorim who “shtam” from Hungarian type families. I’m referring to actual Shtreimal wearing Yidden.June 12, 2023 12:37 am at 12:37 am #2198750
This comes down to where both the lines of ‘frum’ and ‘chassidish’ is drawn. Instead of debating that, there should be a mathematical formula for this. I just don’t have the data to solve it.
The problem is, is the rate of X getting closer to extreme X- as time goes on and the population of X and X+ grows. X = Chassidish +/- more or less
The assumption is that one can’t be Chassidish while being not Frum. 🤔
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