What if I don't want to buy back the chometz from the goy?

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  • #617653

    Joseph
    Participant

    We hear the stories of the goy who decided to keep some (or all) of the chometz sold to him before Pesach. So he gets an appraisal of the fair market value of the chometz and/or chometzdik keilim, pays for it and takes it.

    As is his right.

    What if I don’t want to buy back the chometz from the goy. Let’s get an appraisal, he has to pay me the fair market value and it’s his goods.

    I should be able to force him to keep it, and pay, just as he has the right to elect to keep it even if that wasn’t my expectation.

    #1150342

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is usually a contract that forces you to take the chometz back or there are penalties

    #1150343

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    Ive watched them sell Chametz at MTJ many times (though not in past few years) The way I remember it they sell him the chametz, he puts a down payment and he has x number of days to decide if he want to go through with the sale. Once those days are up he can keep everything forever (and pay the rest of money for it) or the stuff returns to original owners.

    There is no “buying back” the chometz from the goy.

    Though I am not sure if everybody does it this way. Since I often hear peple refer to waiting for the Rabbi to “but the chametz back from the goy” after PEsach.

    #1150344

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Ubiquitin – According to the way you present the deal, it would seem (to me) that when the Goy decides not to keep the Chametz, it turns out never to have been his in the first place. How does this circumvent the ??????? of ?? ???? ??? ????, and why isn’t this ??? ???? ???? ?????

    #1150345

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The way I think it works:

    You sell the chametz to the goy on loan, so to speak, and the money he gives you initially is collateral (nowhere near as much as the actual value of chametz). After pesach, you “forgive the debt” and give back the collateral for the chametz. It’s pretty much as Ubiquitin explained. The chametz really is the goy’s just like a house really is your’s if you buy it with a loan. If you don’t pay back the loan, the bank takes the house as is probably stipulated in the contract. The same is true here (I think).

    #1150346

    Joseph
    Participant

    Since the goy bought and owns the chometz, I am within my rights to tell him I’m not buying or taking it back from him (and collect from him its fair value.)

    #1150347

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    He’s also in his rights not to pay you the fair value, which I think automatically returns it to you. I might have a few inaccuracies in my explanation, but, suffice it to say, it really isn’t as simple as the chametz just being sold to the goy and then bought back. That’s how we talk about, that’s probably how it was once done, but I there’s definitely more to it than that.

    #1150348

    Joseph
    Participant

    Why would he be within his rights to pay me less than fair value?

    #1150349

    Joseph
    Participant

    If he doesn’t have to pay fair value, the goy has an incentive to come collect all the chometz he bought, by his own election, and take it all for himself from all the Yidden he bought it from.

    #1150350

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I am not familiar with the details of the transaction, but one rav told me that we want the transaction to be in the goy’s favor. I assume it’s because we want him to be sincere.

    #1150351

    crispandrefreshing
    Participant

    zahavasdad,Neville ChaimBerlin, ur all wrong watch rai willigs video 4 example. joseph – who will u sell ur chamets to next year? also its not nice hes doing u a favor.

    #1150352

    apushatayid
    Participant

    You don’t have much of a choice. You appointed the Rav your shliach to conduct the transaction for you and unless you stop his shlichus whatever the Rav does you will have to live with. Unless of course you don’t appoint a shliach in which case I wish you happy negotiating. The way it was explained to me, specific terms of the sale are not finalized before Yom Tov only the framework of the sale.

    #1150353

    Joseph
    Participant

    Motzei Pesach immediately after Maariv I tell the Rov I don’t want the chometz back and he isn’t an authorized shliach to purchase it back on my behalf.

    #1150354

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I believe that a Rav I used to use to sell my chametz structured it as a down payment, with a balloon payment due after Pesach ended. If the balloon payment wasn’t made, the chametz would revert back to the original owners – not retroactively, as that would be a problem.

    Since this was the contract, the Rav isn’t buying it back for you, it’s going back because the contract stipulates that. Since you authorized the original contract, you can’t change it.

    A bigger question might be if you found chametz over Pesach. Let’s say you sold all chametz in your home to a non-Jew. Then, you find something that you missed while cleaning – let’s say a cookie was found inside a cabinet. How can you burn it? It doesn’t belong to you, it belongs to the non-Jew that you sold it to!

    #1150355

    Meno
    Participant

    It would be a tremendous chilul Hashem. Very bad news for Jews everywhere.

    #1150356

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    Again the way it works (at least in one place I know of) there is no “buying back” the chometz is sold to the guy forever but with a built in clause that allows him to opt out after x number days which would return the chometz for now on to original owners. There is no clause that allows for the seller to force the goy to keep the chometz if he chooses not to go through with it.

    #1150357

    simcha613
    Participant

    I think what happens is that the chameitz is sold to the Goy, he puts down a small down payment, and the contract says he has x amount of days to pay back the rest. However, the contract also has a clause allowing the Goy to sell back the chameitz by a certain date instead of making the payment. That is the Goy’s choice and the Jew cannot force him to keep the Chameitz as per the contract.

    #1150358

    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: He doesn’t purchase it back. That’s not how it works. The analogy to a mortgage on a house is accurate. If you default, the bank takes the house back. All the bank can tell you is “pay up or give back the house”. They can’t force you to keep the house and pay for it. The same thing is here. It’s the Goy’s Chametz and he owes you money. You can’t force him to pay that money. What you can do, though, which is what we all do, is to tell him “either pay full price or give back the Chametz”.

    #1150359

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Get the specifics of the contract between your Shliach to sell the chametz and the person he sold it to and share that info with us. Perhaps those familiar with choshen mishpat and lihavdil secular contract law will be able to guide you. Until then, take it back, and if you dont want it, put it out with the trash, or donate it to Masbia.

    #1150360

    mik5
    Participant

    A bigger question might be if you found chametz over Pesach. Let’s say you sold all chametz in your home to a non-Jew. Then, you find something that you missed while cleaning – let’s say a cookie was found inside a cabinet. How can you burn it? It doesn’t belong to you, it belongs to the non-Jew that you sold it to!

    The goy is not makpid (doesn’t mind) if I burn one of his cookies. If a person doesn’t mind if you eat his food (and you know this for certain), the halacha says you are allowed to eat it. The same would apply here.

    But some say you cannot burn the cookie, but rather take a stick and push it into the goy’s section.

    #1150361

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Assuming you said kul chamira, perhaps the unknown cookie is hefker and not sold, in which case you can burn it.

    #1150362

    ari-free
    Participant

    I assume the OP doesn’t have any single malts 🙂

    #1254877

    Joseph
    Participant

    I told my goy he can keep the chometz this year and pay me the fair market value.

    #1254886

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    What is kul chamira, please?

    Also… Unless it’s chol hamoed (and even then I still don’t know if it is permissible), isn’t is assur to start a fire on Pesach to burn food in general?

    #1254910

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Joseph I don’t believe you. What is the fair market value for your chametz?

    Isn’t the average chametz lot filled with half-full boxes of cereal, frozen foods, baking mixes, I don’t know. But that is also assuming that the person of whom you sold the food to actually wants to keep and eat it.

    So he can maybe keep the food and get a refund. Oui?

    Granted I am not saying that your chametz food is half-full boxes of cereal. You may own stockpiles of artisan bagels and desserts. Wedding cakes and gourmet lolipops. All worth beyond the six figures.

    #1254911

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB, good question.

    If you find the chometz on Yomtov, you are supposed to cover it and wait until Chol hamoed to burn it. That is, if you hold that you are supposed to burn it. There may be opinions that you are not allowed to (since it was sold to the goy).

    There are definitely opinions that you do burn it even though it was sold to a goy. I was at someone’s house on Pesach who found chometz. He looked up the halacha and reached the conclusion that he was supposed to burn it. I believe this was based on a psak from Rav Elyashiv. And this was despite the fact that it was chometz that had been in a cupboard that was sold to a goy (someone accidentally took a magazine out of the cupboard and there was chometz in it).

    However, there may be different opinions, so you should probably ask a sheilah if it happens to you, c”v.

    #1255043

    Joseph
    Participant

    LB, “Isn’t the average chametz lot filled with half-full boxes of cereal, frozen foods, baking mixes”

    Exactly! Which is why I told him he can have the Cheerios, etc and give me the cash.

    “But that is also assuming that the person of whom you sold the food to actually wants to keep and eat it.”

    What do I care what he wants? A contract is a contract. I’m simply holding him up to keeping his end of our bargain.

    #1255044

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “I told my goy he can keep the chometz this year and pay me the fair market value. ”

    He is usually told that every year. The question is what did he say.

    #1255064

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The contracts are structured so that none of these shenanigans make sense for either side.

    #1255099

    Joseph
    Participant

    Paying fair market value for the chometz, whether at the goy’s initiative or whether at the Yid’s initiative, isn’t a shenanigan.

    To say otherwise would make a mockery of the entire transaction and raise questions as to the legitimacy of the original sale before Pesach to the goy.

    #1255155

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, from what I’ve heard of the halachos, it might not be so simple (as others such as DY have pointed out here). You are raising a good point, but I think the halachos are more complicated than that, and you should look into them.

    And anyhow, the sale is done through the Rav, so you couldn’t have made a direct deal with the goy after Pesach. Do you even know who he is?

    I actually met him once. I got to the Rav’s house to do mechiras chometz so last-minute that the goy was already there!

    #1255203

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “You are raising a good point”

    He isnt. Multiple people explained why it doesnt work that way.

    Joseph
    Again,
    “Exactly! Which is why I told him he can have the Cheerios, etc and give me the cash.”

    This isnt your chiduish, he is generally told that. However if he doesnt want to go through with it you cant force him, see Sam2’s detailed explanation above

    “A contract is a contract. I’m simply holding him up to keeping his end of our bargain.”

    Have you read the contract?

    #1255422

    smerel
    Participant

    If you don’t buy back the chometz how are you going to make sure to give all the chometz you bought back to him? This includes chometz attached to utensils and even chometz absorbed in them. Have fun getting this all together to give to him.

    #1255829

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Smerel

    for themost part the blios arent sold as they arent worth a shava perutah. (Where Ive sold my chometz theyve given as a matona)

    Youre comment though raises the Misplaced concern Joseph has.

    “Have fun getting this all together to give to him.”
    Im not sure what you eman by that. when the Goy is offered to (As joseph said, and is in fact done) “he can keep the chometz this year and pay me the fair market value.”
    If the Goy accepts Im certain (or at least hope) youd be happy to gathter up your chometz and give it to him in echange for the fair market value.

    #1256124

    smerel
    Participant

    I don’t share Jospehs concern. Based on my (mis?)understanding The blios and stuff like it are sold with a kinyan agav because no one would ever buy a bunch of crumbs. In fact some botey din require something with real value to be sold because of that concern. But the crumbs are in fact sold so if you want the goy to pay for your chometz make sure to give them to him.

    #1256141

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “You are raising a good point”

    “He isnt. Multiple people explained why it doesnt work that way.”

    The fact that there are answers doesn’t mean it’s not a good question.

    And it doesn’t hurt to be polite.

    #1257770

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Smerel
    Im sure many botei dinim do it differently. Where Ive ben they gave it as a present (OF course the Goy still needs to perform a kinyan

    LU
    “The fact that there are answers doesn’t mean it’s not a good question.”

    It depends on the sequence. IF the question is asked after it was already answered then it isnt a good question.

    joseph knows it. Youve been around a while Im surprised you dont know it yet too.

    #1257779

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Ubiquitin – he might not consider the opinions of anonymous posters in the CR to be valid answers to his question. Which is why I suggested he look into the matter himself.

    In any case, the main issue is what I wrote above: “It doesn’t hurt to be polite”. This is especially true when you are disagreeing with someone. You should always try to do it in a nice way. If you can make a point in a nice way or in a mean way, why not do it in a nice way?

    Don’t you think the CR would be a much nicer place if people tried harder to be polite to each other?

    #1257795

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    LU

    look up Troll
    He isnt asking a real question. He is trying to confuse people. OF course there is no reason to take it from anonymours posters on the internet. He can ask anybody involved in a sale and they would tell him the same thing I and others have told him.
    And is delibrate misleading isnt benign. He has you confused. you identfiy his question as a “good one”

    Of course there is nothing wrong with raising questions,, but sometimes there are answers. When people dont care about the answers and just want to mock a legitimate Yiddishe Hanahga it is important to call it out such even in a non-polite way.

    and I know you dont realize what Joseph is doing, partly becasue you are new here and partly because of your naivete (which isnt a bad thing per se)
    Also note: I wasnt rude to him. It was only after you thought it was a good question after5 people already answered it. That I simply pointed out it wasnt a good question

    #1257786

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Everything else aside… Isn’t it a blessing of its own that Joseph is even in a position to claim that he can manage perfectly fine without getting the chometz back after Pesach?

    In other words, whereas some Jews in certain areas may need and want their chometz back, because finding kosher foods is difficult, Joseph would be able to take the money and go buy new food without further ado.

    So that is pretty cool, in my humble opinion, that Joseph is living in a kosher foods abundant community. From what I have read and heard about some out of town places, people have to drive far out just to find a kosher aisle somewhere, and sometimes rely on buying food online.

    So yay.

    Okay now back to your regular programming 🙂

    #1257780

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Youve been around a while”

    Now that’s nice to hear 🙂 I was getting tired of being told that I’m a newcomer. I was wondering when my newbie status would be over.

    #1258143

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I just saw somewhere else a Non Jew who purchased the Chametz in Williamsburg showed up at someone’s house with a van wanted to take his Chametz that he purchased. he had to be persuaded not to do so

    #1258145

    Meno
    Participant

    ZD,

    In that case the goy would probably have to pay for it if he wanted to take it. I wonder how they persuaded him, and if that would even be acceptable.

    #1258277

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The rule is well known, שוה כסף ככסף. He has Chametz in your domain and says you should keep it. In Bava Kama 46b we find the Gemara quoting the saying that if someone owes you money take whatever he offers for soon even that won’t be available.

    As the Rishonim there point out, usually we don’t allow payment in such form since you received money and should therefore be courteous enough to return money. In this case however, obviously accepting the Chametz as value is part of the deal.

    #1258287

    Meno
    Participant

    HaLeivi,

    Is that how the sale works?

    If he is paying with chometz as שוה כסף, wouldn’t we have to know the value (or at least an approximate value) of the chometz?

    #1258347

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ZD
    Just saw that story. Now that makes me very uncomfortable (although note it is the exact opposite of Joseph’s point).

    I dont understand why they stopped him from taking his chometz. The only reason I cna think of is they were concerned that he wouldnt actually be able/willing to pay the potentially thousands of dollars he’d owe. Though that makes me more uncomfortable.

    Though it should be noted I imagine the sale is binding (halachicly and legally) even if there is no conceivable way the guy could pay for it.

    #1258415

    miamilawyer
    Participant

    PS It used to be that you could see what you wrote and edit it prior to the comment being posted. Is this no longer possible?

    #1258413

    miamilawyer
    Participant

    First of all, I am not going to pretend to know the halacha, but a goy is obviously not bound by halacha. In Florida, and I suspect NY as well, a contract that says Person A will pay person B “fair market value” is not enforceable, unless it permits someone (besides a judge, for example an arbitrator) to set that value if the parties do not agree because price is a material term that cannot be left to a judge/jury to fill in. So even if the contract says that, you cannot enforce it. Perhaps the Goy can because maybe halacha recognizes such a deal, and the Jew is bound by halacha, but at least in Florida, it cannot be enforced.

    So the practical answer to Joseph’s question (at least in Florida) is that even if the contract said that, and a Jew had to comply with Halacha and honor such an election by the Goy, it is unenforceable in a Fl court.

    I do not know how rabbis structure these deals, but the common sense way would be similar to what is referenced above (ie a mortgage). You sell the Goy your chametz for 100,000 but he only makes monthly payments, and the first payment is due in 10 days (or 8). Upon failure to make the payment after pesach, there is a default, and the property goes back immediately to the Jew. The end. In that scenario, the jew cannot insist the Goy pay anything, as the contract provides that the sole remedy on default is a return of the property (collateral). On the other hand, the Goy has the right to pay and keep the property.

    There are many real loans that are handled in this way, so to say its a mockery because the jews only remedy is the collateral is not accurate.

    #1258458

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “unless it permits someone (besides a judge, for example an arbitrator) to set that value if the parties do not agree ”

    It does. It says a panel of “three experts” though the experts are not usually specified

    “but the common sense way…”

    As mentioned by a few posters above, that is basically how it is handled (though he puts up a down payment up front as well)

    #1258467

    Joseph
    Participant

    miamilawyer: A goy *is* bound by halacha. (Despite us having no means to enforce it these days, yet.)

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