December 13, 2015 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #616824Shopping613 🌠Participant
Can you be a frum feminist?
What is your opinion on this?December 13, 2015 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1116221Bookworm120Participant
Hey, Shopping! Thanks for bringing this subject up.
While I believe that women and men have different roles in Judaism, I also believe that women and men should have equal social and employment opportunities in the secular world. (Whether they should take full advantage of these opportunities is another story entirely. Maybe a girl doesn’t want to work in a STEM field, and really would rather be a stay-at-home mom – but I digress….) In that sense, I think it’s possible to support [at least some] feminist values and live a frum Jewish lifestyle without conflict.
Not everyone defines “frum feminism” this way; the majority of people I see calling themselves “frum feminists” on the Web tend to support things that seem to conflict with Orthodox Jewish values. Many appear to be feminists advocating for pro-feminist changes within Judaism, not feminists who happen to be frum Jews. I have my reasons for not openly associated with others who call themselves “frum feminists” … and the feminist movement as a whole.December 13, 2015 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1116222
I know many.December 13, 2015 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #1116223
“frum feminist” is an oxymoron and misnomer.December 13, 2015 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1116224Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
I clicked on the link to comment on this, but Joseph beat me to it. It’s an oxymoron.December 13, 2015 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1116225nishtdayngesheftParticipant
I suspect that there are those who do not know what “frum” means.
There is no designation open frum. So that should clarify some misnomers.December 13, 2015 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1116226
A frum feminist is not the same thing as a feminist. A frum feminist is frum and believes that women are people with rights, not objects.December 13, 2015 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1116227
Who gave them rights?December 13, 2015 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1116228
Women and men were created with rights and obligations.December 13, 2015 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1116229
The same right and obligations, or different ones?December 13, 2015 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1116230skripkaParticipant
different obligations definitely. men have an obligation to daven with a minyan, woman don’t. woman have an obligation to keep other mitzvos which don’t apply to men . my only question is, what do you mean by “rights”?
do you mean on the socio-political level? or on the judaism-halacha-hashkafa level?December 13, 2015 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #1116231
Skripka, of course. The problem with “frum” feminists (the type Charlie knows) is that they want equal rights and obligations in the realm of Judaism whether or not it is what the Torah actually wants (being careful to have a teirutz for how it doesn’t technically violate halacha).December 13, 2015 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #1116232gavra_at_workParticipant
The Catholic Church does not allow women to be priests, so no, a woman feminist can’t be frum.
Frum is a Galach, a Yid is erlich!
Now if you ask “can a woman be an erlich yid”, if the model is Rebbetzen Chava Bachrach, Jungreis, or Liebowitz, then the answer is certainly yes. If the model is Rabbi Sally Priesand or Hillary Rodham, then the answer is certainly no.December 14, 2015 12:24 am at 12:24 am #1116233
Examples of ehrliche women are motherly, support their husband and sons Torah learning, have a dinner prepared for their mishpacha and cry with tefilos when lighting Shabbos neiros.December 14, 2015 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1116234
“they want equal rights and obligations in the realm of Judaism whether or not it is what the Torah actually wants “
Not true.December 14, 2015 12:38 am at 12:38 am #1116235
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-is-a-frum-feminist#post-591237 is wrong because feminists don’t want gender equality. Gender equality activists want gender equality. Feminists care about rights for women. It’s not the same thing.December 14, 2015 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1116236
Of course it’s true. What do you think women being rabbis is all about?December 14, 2015 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1116237
You haven’t defined or given examples of “rights”.December 14, 2015 12:47 am at 12:47 am #1116238
Women being rabbis has more to do with gender equality movement than feminism.December 14, 2015 12:49 am at 12:49 am #1116239
I am not a dictionary.December 14, 2015 1:09 am at 1:09 am #1116240
It’s not only dictionaries that give definitions.December 14, 2015 1:40 am at 1:40 am #1116241TheGoqParticipant
Just because women have different roles in yiddishkeit than men does not mean they need to be subserviant a marriage dominated by one party is not healthy for anyone involved.December 14, 2015 2:04 am at 2:04 am #1116242
+1. I agree wholeheartedly. Being a frum woman does not mean you are relegated to being stay at home or working at a dead end low paying job just because she’s female. And being a feminist doesn’t necessarily mean a desire to destroy all role differences between men and women especially in the realm of religion.December 14, 2015 2:28 am at 2:28 am #1116243
Goq: The Torah prescribes a subservient role.
Simcha: If being stay-at-home is something you consider to be a matter of “relegated”, you ought to reconsider. The Shulchan Aruch prescribes, as a matter of halacha, that the role is stay-at-home.December 14, 2015 3:18 am at 3:18 am #1116244
Feminism also goes by its other name of Women’s Liberation (women’s lib), which it is synanamous with, and gender equality is one of the movements core theologies.
Ask yourself what they are trying to “liberate” themselves from and what that has to do with Hashem and Judaism.December 14, 2015 3:46 am at 3:46 am #1116245
Joseph- if it’s against halacha for a woman to work, why is a woman allowed to break this halacha to support her husband in learning? Usually the husband could probably find another source of income other than kollel that would allow his wife to not break this halacha.
And, I would like to apologize for using the term “relegated.” There are many women that find much fulfillment and menuchas hanefesh as a full time wife and mother. But not all women fit that mold. Are there contemporary poskim that say that it is assur for a woman to have a career if not completely necessary for financial reasons? I would love to see contemporary sources that say that explicitly (other than the S”A that you mention).December 14, 2015 4:12 am at 4:12 am #1116246
Joseph- where does the Torah prescribe a subservient role? In Parshas Bereishis for Chava’s curse? It also curses Chava with difficult childbirth. Does that mean a woman is not allowed an epidural to ease the pain? It also curses Adam to work for a living. Does that mean it is assur for a man to rely on the financial support of others?
One can argue that a curse is not the same thing as a command. One is not required to make sure that that curse comes true. Maybe a curse is just a statement that a new reality exists but it does not impose any new active restrictions. Like if man used to have the ability to fly and God cursed man by saying “you shall not fly” and took away the ability… that just means there’s a new reality that man can no longer fly. That doesn’t forbid man from building a balloon or an airplane.
The new reality is that it will be much more difficult for man to earn a living, but it does not forbid one man from making it easier on another man. The new reality is, is that childbirth will be much more difficult, but it doesn’t forbid a woman from making it as easy as possible. The new reality is that there is a new natural dominant relationship between man and woman, but it doesn’t forbid a man and a woman from having a different dynamic if they choose to.December 14, 2015 4:24 am at 4:24 am #1116247
Feminism does not believe in gender equality. Gender equality activists fight for women to be allowed to be female rabbis and for men to be allowed to be male rebbitzens or whatever the word is. Feminism is about women, not equality.December 14, 2015 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #1116248popa_bar_abbaParticipant
You can’t be frum and a feminist.
I know some people who are frum and call themselves feminist, but I have spoken with them and they are not feminist. Some are not frum.December 14, 2015 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #1116249
You can’t be butter and a fly.
I know some insects who fly and call themselves butter, but I have attempted to spread them on bread and they are not butter.December 14, 2015 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #1116250
simcha613:December 14, 2015 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1116251popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Well done rebyiddDecember 14, 2015 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1116252adocsParticipant
Not sure what the problem is.
If women aren’t Jewish then why does it matter if they’re frum?December 14, 2015 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #1116253☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
According to Wikipedia,
“Feminism is a range of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women.
This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.”
You can be a frum feminist, just as you can be a frum
environmentalist*, but the thing is that when feminism
and the Torah or contemporary chareidi/Orthodox practice
conflict, those who are frum and feminists often think
that it is not feminism but Judaism which should yield,
which is obviously not acceptable.
*I don’t know how appropriate “isms” that aren’t Judaism are for a Jew.December 14, 2015 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1116254
“The Torah prescribes a subservient role.”
The origin of that belief is from the Tanna Shaul HaTarsi, the famous (infamous) talmid of Rabban Gamliel HaZakein who became a min. It is probably asur to follow his heresies.December 14, 2015 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #1116256
Charlie, is your Rambam missing the page for Hilchos Ishus 15:20 and your Shulchan Aruch YD 240:17? Did you miss Bereishis 3:16 and 18:12 or Tehilim 45:12?December 15, 2015 12:17 am at 12:17 am #1116257☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
Tell that to Rav Avigdor Miller.
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