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Can you be a frum feminist?
What is your opinion on this?
Hey, Shopping! Thanks for bringing this subject up.
While I believe that women and men have different roles in Judaism, I also believe that women and men should have equal social and employment opportunities in the secular world. (Whether they should take full advantage of these opportunities is another story entirely. Maybe a girl doesn’t want to work in a STEM field, and really would rather be a stay-at-home mom – but I digress….) In that sense, I think it’s possible to support [at least some] feminist values and live a frum Jewish lifestyle without conflict.
Not everyone defines “frum feminism” this way; the majority of people I see calling themselves “frum feminists” on the Web tend to support things that seem to conflict with Orthodox Jewish values. Many appear to be feminists advocating for pro-feminist changes within Judaism, not feminists who happen to be frum Jews. I have my reasons for not openly associated with others who call themselves “frum feminists” … and the feminist movement as a whole.
I know many.
“frum feminist” is an oxymoron and misnomer.
I clicked on the link to comment on this, but Joseph beat me to it. It’s an oxymoron.
I suspect that there are those who do not know what “frum” means.
There is no designation open frum. So that should clarify some misnomers.
A frum feminist is not the same thing as a feminist. A frum feminist is frum and believes that women are people with rights, not objects.
Who gave them rights?
Women and men were created with rights and obligations.
The same right and obligations, or different ones?
different obligations definitely. men have an obligation to daven with a minyan, woman don’t. woman have an obligation to keep other mitzvos which don’t apply to men . my only question is, what do you mean by “rights”?
do you mean on the socio-political level? or on the judaism-halacha-hashkafa level?
Skripka, of course. The problem with “frum” feminists (the type Charlie knows) is that they want equal rights and obligations in the realm of Judaism whether or not it is what the Torah actually wants (being careful to have a teirutz for how it doesn’t technically violate halacha).
The Catholic Church does not allow women to be priests, so no, a woman feminist can’t be frum.
Frum is a Galach, a Yid is erlich!
Now if you ask “can a woman be an erlich yid”, if the model is Rebbetzen Chava Bachrach, Jungreis, or Liebowitz, then the answer is certainly yes. If the model is Rabbi Sally Priesand or Hillary Rodham, then the answer is certainly no.
Examples of ehrliche women are motherly, support their husband and sons Torah learning, have a dinner prepared for their mishpacha and cry with tefilos when lighting Shabbos neiros.
“they want equal rights and obligations in the realm of Judaism whether or not it is what the Torah actually wants “
Not true.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-is-a-frum-feminist#post-591237 is wrong because feminists don’t want gender equality. Gender equality activists want gender equality. Feminists care about rights for women. It’s not the same thing.
Charlie,
Of course it’s true. What do you think women being rabbis is all about?
RY23,
You haven’t defined or given examples of “rights”.
Women being rabbis has more to do with gender equality movement than feminism.
I am not a dictionary.
It’s not only dictionaries that give definitions.
Just because women have different roles in yiddishkeit than men does not mean they need to be subserviant a marriage dominated by one party is not healthy for anyone involved.
Bookworm120
+1. I agree wholeheartedly. Being a frum woman does not mean you are relegated to being stay at home or working at a dead end low paying job just because she’s female. And being a feminist doesn’t necessarily mean a desire to destroy all role differences between men and women especially in the realm of religion.
Goq: The Torah prescribes a subservient role.
Simcha: If being stay-at-home is something you consider to be a matter of “relegated”, you ought to reconsider. The Shulchan Aruch prescribes, as a matter of halacha, that the role is stay-at-home.
Feminism also goes by its other name of Women’s Liberation (women’s lib), which it is synanamous with, and gender equality is one of the movements core theologies.
Ask yourself what they are trying to “liberate” themselves from and what that has to do with Hashem and Judaism.
Joseph- if it’s against halacha for a woman to work, why is a woman allowed to break this halacha to support her husband in learning? Usually the husband could probably find another source of income other than kollel that would allow his wife to not break this halacha.
And, I would like to apologize for using the term “relegated.” There are many women that find much fulfillment and menuchas hanefesh as a full time wife and mother. But not all women fit that mold. Are there contemporary poskim that say that it is assur for a woman to have a career if not completely necessary for financial reasons? I would love to see contemporary sources that say that explicitly (other than the S”A that you mention).
Joseph- where does the Torah prescribe a subservient role? In Parshas Bereishis for Chava’s curse? It also curses Chava with difficult childbirth. Does that mean a woman is not allowed an epidural to ease the pain? It also curses Adam to work for a living. Does that mean it is assur for a man to rely on the financial support of others?
One can argue that a curse is not the same thing as a command. One is not required to make sure that that curse comes true. Maybe a curse is just a statement that a new reality exists but it does not impose any new active restrictions. Like if man used to have the ability to fly and God cursed man by saying “you shall not fly” and took away the ability… that just means there’s a new reality that man can no longer fly. That doesn’t forbid man from building a balloon or an airplane.
The new reality is that it will be much more difficult for man to earn a living, but it does not forbid one man from making it easier on another man. The new reality is, is that childbirth will be much more difficult, but it doesn’t forbid a woman from making it as easy as possible. The new reality is that there is a new natural dominant relationship between man and woman, but it doesn’t forbid a man and a woman from having a different dynamic if they choose to.
Feminism does not believe in gender equality. Gender equality activists fight for women to be allowed to be female rabbis and for men to be allowed to be male rebbitzens or whatever the word is. Feminism is about women, not equality.
You can’t be frum and a feminist.
I know some people who are frum and call themselves feminist, but I have spoken with them and they are not feminist. Some are not frum.
You can’t be butter and a fly.
I know some insects who fly and call themselves butter, but I have attempted to spread them on bread and they are not butter.
Well done rebyidd
Not sure what the problem is.
If women aren’t Jewish then why does it matter if they’re frum?
According to Wikipedia,
“Feminism is a range of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women.
This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.”
You can be a frum feminist, just as you can be a frum
environmentalist*, but the thing is that when feminism
and the Torah or contemporary chareidi/Orthodox practice
conflict, those who are frum and feminists often think
that it is not feminism but Judaism which should yield,
which is obviously not acceptable.
*I don’t know how appropriate “isms” that aren’t Judaism are for a Jew.
“The Torah prescribes a subservient role.”
The origin of that belief is from the Tanna Shaul HaTarsi, the famous (infamous) talmid of Rabban Gamliel HaZakein who became a min. It is probably asur to follow his heresies.
Charlie, is your Rambam missing the page for Hilchos Ishus 15:20 and your Shulchan Aruch YD 240:17? Did you miss Bereishis 3:16 and 18:12 or Tehilim 45:12?
Tell that to Rav Avigdor Miller.
Unfortunately, girls / women in the frum world who want to be guys have no one to discuss it with because it’s considered ‘not normal’ and most frum females Ik say they’re very happy being a girl. Why is it considered ‘not normal’? Is someone who is depressed ‘not normal’? We can’t help being mentally ill!
a girl 613: When you say “girls/women who want to be guys”, do you mean they have gender dysphoria?
In the frum world, you’re right, it’s a tough situation, because many people will automatically label you as crazy. That’s a real shame, and it should be addressed with sensitivity.
That said, when you ask if it’s “not normal” – it all depends on how you define what “normal” means. Would you say a person getting sick with cancer is “normal”? I think we can all agree that while it’s unfortunately not uncommon, it definitely deviates from the state of normalcy.
Mental illness also deviates from the state of “normalcy”. That doesn’t mean the individual should be blamed for it, or treated badly. They deserve respect, just like all others do. They should get the help they need, to get them back on track.
So if a girl/woman wants to be a guy, ignore what the world at large says about it. Get the help you need, from a therapist who deals with these cases, without pushing you to accept it and “transition”.Feminists claim they want equality, but in truth,
they want superiority, the more superiority the better.More than 90% of homeless people in are men.
More than 90% of people who die on-the-job are men.
More than 90% of people in jail are men.
More than 75% of violent crime victims (including murder) are men.In most countries, only men are obligated by the military draft.
Every year, Affirmative Action laws and DEI
take countless thousands of jobs and promotions
away from men, and give those jobs and promotions to women.The Feminist Movement is allied with Hamas.
“Feminists claim they want equality, but in truth, they want superiority, the more superiority the better.
”
Wow spoken like a true bitter alter bucherYes, I mean gender dysphoria. My brother was asking my mother whether any girls want to be boys, and that he never heard of anyone who does. So my mother told him that people who do are not happy people, crazy, mentally ill, etc…
The Torah doesn’t believe in feminism, so no such thing as a ‘frum feminist.’ Like what does it even mean? What do they advocate for? The Torah says women are supposed to be different than men
Here is a frum feminist for you:
Devorah says that her going with Barak to a battle will be an insult to him. Why? Because Devorah was teaching Torah and, thus, as we all know, was exempt from mitzvos unless there was no one else to perform them. Thus, if she is seen going with Barak it is clear that she is not there to support, but she is doing it because the battle will not be won without her. And that is why she is singing the song, to show that she is there for a reason, and did not abandon her Torah learning for no reason. I’ll leave kol isha for another time.natural original feminism was very necessary talking like mary shelly sort of. To actually get more equal rights for women, like to allow them to vote blah blah. all other generations are just insane. In Judaism ofc women to this date kinda has more rights than men in marriage. In talmud is even simply stated that a jewish wife of a coal miner is free to divorce him in case if he became disguisting to her. thats it. but in christian societies it was way worse for women they needed to fight for her rigts. and then just take original mary shelly proud daughter of proper first gen feminist. and just read the text not for the story but how sophisticated the text is and as some english lady said mary shelly should have just fought for womens rights and she just decided to write a book.
so i touched that book and was slightly amazed that anyone would even be able to write in such manner at all. it took me 30min to read the first page. and it was enough for me to get some hope in life. knowing that this book was just written in high school as just some assignment. which allows to guess writters age. which gets even more fascinating because how she can possibly know so many different words if that is not accessible or thought in average schools its technically not even possible to force such vocabulary. So in arrogant british sens of humour reading first page you are sure, written not by a peasant. So finding such pearls of hope in solitary confinement in prison while serving a sentence not guilty but just on remand. gives entirely different perspective that there are interesting things in life that maybe it is worth not to become a criminal yet. just to see some more. alltogether while being tortured by strong and very valuable men while being filmed on occasions beware not criminals but officers you come to reflect. what ever any man actually achieved just by himself? literally nothing I say. Even moses traveling best he managed to do is to kill violent egyptian officer. and when does mosew success kicks in? thats right when he accidently gets married to zipporah for reasons unexplained. then he miraculously becomes successful. and everyone remembers him yet you never hear anyone mentioning zipporah. was she a feminist? who knows. how that poor wanderer even got married to begin with while to that point his greatest written achievment was just killing an officer. How does he get married to a doughter of a priest? Probably as Solomon said simply “prudent wife is fro l-rd” and best thing about zipporah in movie that she is displayed as literally not an israelite, facial tattoos that are only said in torah that it is israelites who doew not wear tattoes. so imagine current general tabboo about tattoes. And there you have zipporah some thousands of years ago fighting for womens rights by wearing facial tattoes, in a womenw rights fight that is still not won today it is still generally considered in west as not normal. So before you ask what is feminist define by what you mean by that. I for example not feminist. I will attempt to write another word which actually means equal rights that is egalitarianism or smth. I detest all 4th wave feminists just because they by themselves do not know anymore wtf they are fightig for.“Samson’s Struggle” by Rabbi Gershon Weiss refutes Feminism.
It was published in 1988 CE, so it may be an out-of-print book.
A frum feminist is often a deeply sensitive and perceptive woman.
She notices tone, subtext, and what goes unspoken.
She asked sincere questions and received shallow answers.
Or worse, she was shut down for asking at all.Her brother may have teased her “Sheloh asani isha”
She knows that the Torah itself carries deep respect for women.
She can feel it in the stories, the laws, the rhythm of Jewish life.
But she rarely heard that respect articulated aloud.
It wasn’t named.
It wasn’t taught with pride.
It wasn’t centered in how women were spoken to or about.She wants her inner experience to match the values she’s told exist.
She wants dignity that is felt, not just defended in abstract arguments.
She wants to belong without having to become smaller, quieter, or less curious.Look closely at the men who shape these frum feminists,
not only through what they say,
but through what they are unable or unwilling to hold when questions arise.nobody disagreed so far, so the feminist piece about Devorah teaching Torah v. going to war above – is from Ben Ish Chai.
Shalom simcha
No offense a feminist is usually someone delusional that doesn’t like being held accountableWoman have always been put on a pedestal by men and the whole equality thing is a hoax. There’s no “equality” but respect of differences. Feminism is a cover for female disrespect and control.
Very few men are treated properly by woman these days. And it’s very rare to see a woman humble enough to appreciate her husband and his lack of intuition. Woman can’t understand that men are not good at household things. But are very good at providing. Not good at childcare but very good at protecting. Generally woman use a feministic mindset to degrade men and consider their lack of intuition as incompetence when really men are different and have different strengths and deserve to be respected not humiliated.
Feminism is another word lack of desire to be held accountable by anyone especially men and also it is used as degradation of men
So feminist. Sit down. Know your place. Respect your husbands. And stop humiliating them
Another kinder way of saying shut up
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