What is the issur in flying on shabbos

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  • #2035997
    tunaisafish
    Participant

    Im not saying there is or isnt an issur im presuming there is and asking what they would be and what about a case when they are forced like the case of the south africans

    #2036060
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Techum?
    Causing the plane to burn more fuel?

    #2036045
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer says that traveling on a steam boat on shabbos is forbidden because of its movement and being ovar on shabbosan not resting on shabbos.

    #2036048
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    Techum, hotzaah, muktza. Even if it was 100% mutar (which it isn’t), this particular scenario was שעת השמד.
    It’s יהרג ואל יעבור.
    It’s also allowed to kill those forcing them (not practical though)

    #2036050
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    An interesting shaalah would be if it’s allowed to kill them on shabbos

    #2036052
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Multiple potential issues regarding various formulations of “work” assur on shabbos including, but not limited to your incremental weight/baggage requiring additional kerosene consumption/thrust by engines, techum shabbos, electronic tools used for check-in and onboard, etc. If you must travel, consider using a shabbos compliant “transporter” as per Captain Kirk and Scotty on StarTrek.

    #2036077
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, how do people travel by ship on weeks-long journeys?

    #2036080
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    What about when in the air before shabbos and landing after shabbos? Flying at makom pitur.

    #2036089
    Benephraim
    Participant

    So you would have no shayla on the subway? Would you allow it for a mitzvah like…. on Shabbat?

    #2036090

    > Techum, hotzaah, muktza.

    They are not doing anything and not benefitting from any of these. All they did was – got back into the plane upon a lawful government order. They do not care whether the plane will stand on tarmac for a day or fly over the whole world. So, there is surely no issur mdeuraita. And concern for the health of other Jews should surely overrride any other concerns they have.

    #2036103
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ Shimon Nodel. I’m sure you are a very thoughtful. It’s important to state that your post was not.. At the very least, provide sources that a government action broadly applied regardless of religous observance qualified as a שמ”ד. I’m also curious how you reconcile your suggestion that a religious person should shoot his way out of Ben Gurien Airport with the diction that one should be מחלל שבת to save a life.

    #2036142
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Techum?
    – No techum in the air, though if takes off on shabbos is a problem on the runway. Even if argue that are 10 tefachuim off the ground, if plane sitting on ground may be a problem

    Causing the plane to burn more fuel?
    – not sure what melacha that would be? Mavir is it mavir if more fuel gets consumed to do the same “work”? (obviously the plane is doing more work from a scientific standpoint, but I don’t think halacha recognizes that.
    for example if I have two cars one gets 30 mpg the other gets 20 mpg is it a bigger melacha to use the less fuel efficient car to drive the same distance? seems doubtful. And of course the amount is negligible
    At any rate this has long been discussed regarding cars and busses and Poskim say it is not an issue, comes up with choleh going to hospital or accompanying a child (although are other issues with getting in car/bus on Shabbos)

    hotzaah,
    – don’t carry outdoors, on the plane is not an issue a plane is not a reshus harabim nor a karmelis nor are you going between reshus hayahcids

    Muktze
    – Put stuff in a bag that is bassis for heter and issur.

    not sayign it is 100% muttar, it definitely isnt shabbosdig, but the issurim are not as great as made out.
    It seems to be imore of an inconvenience (understatement) than issur

    #2036167
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Is there a generic heter to be mechalel shabbos if done so pursuant to a lawful order of a government agency? While the purported intent of the travel ban was pikuach nefesh, its hard to make the case here that there was a real or imminent public health threat. As a practical matter, I agree that short of being detained or arrested, these individuals had no choice.

    #2036169
    2scents
    Participant

    ubiq,

    “No techum in the air, though if takes off on shabbos is a problem on the runway. Even if argue that are 10 tefachuim off the ground, if plane sitting on ground may be a problem”

    The actual flying might not be a techum issue. However, they do have a tchum issue once they arrive, as they are coming from out of the tchum and may need to remain in place.

    “Causing the plane to burn more fuel?”
    This would be “marbe B’shiurim”. However, its unlikely that any one person would cause a commercial airliner to burn more fuel.

    #2036170
    2scents
    Participant

    GH

    “As a practical matter, I agree that short of being detained or arrested, these individuals had no choice.”
    That in its own is a choice, either being detained or flying on shabbos.

    #2036171
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I think a ship is different as you don’t feel its movement.

    #2036176

    > purported intent of the travel ban was pikuach nefesh

    Dutch just warehoused two planes from SA. 60 out of 600 people were infected. 13 with new variant.

    There is a chain of command during emergency. There is no expectation that every case will be adjudicated to the full degree of lomdus.

    #2036197
    2scents
    Participant

    Reb E,

    “I think a ship is different as you don’t feel its movement.”

    Why would that matter?

    #2036203
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Complying with government rules is hardly a heter for chilul shabbos; there would have to be a pikuach nefesh issue vis a vis other Jews.

    #2036205
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    2scents

    “This would be “marbe B’shiurim””

    what is the melacha that he is being marbe? bishul on the fuel? The Thrust is the same, just needs (negligibly) more fuel to achieve it

    Agree on deplaning

    #2036219

    @Red Eliezer Crossing the Atlantic from Western Europe to NYC took 7-14 days on a steamship and anywhere from 40 to 90 days under a sail. Many observant Jews undertook this journey. How was that allowed?

    #2036227
    akuperma
    Participant

    As long as you stayed with the tehum (roughly a kilometer) it would probably be okay as long as you don’t use any sort of engine (assuming you could manage to grow powerful wings, but that might raise the problem of mixed breeding with other species). The major problem is that Ha-Shem created gravity, and gave us relative heavy bodies, and those whose bodies are designed for flight have very small brains. This might be a shailoh if Yidden ever manage to get into space or on other planets.

    #2036230
    2scents
    Participant

    NonImpeditiRationeCogitationis

    These halachos are brought down in Shulchan Aruch,

    #2036231
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer is in Shut Likutei Chasam Sofer 97.

    #2036232
    2scents
    Participant

    ubiq,

    Apparently, the increased fuel consumption is bishul, but as I wrote, I do not think there is an increase in fuel consumption with commercial airliners caused by an individual.

    #2036242
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    2scents, the Chasam Sofer does not like the movement of one’s body by the steamship which disturbs his rest on shabbos, so I don’t know what the answer to your question is.

    #2036297
    2scents
    Participant

    Reb E,

    Thanks for explaining.

    #2036298
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer and the end of the above teshuva differentiates between a ship and a steamship where the ship rests and the water carries it, so it does not affect the person traveling whereas the steamship moves affecting the person traveling.

    #2036293
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I don’t know if a plane is like a steamship or a ship carried by the wind.

    #2036332
    2scents
    Participant

    If we were to compare flying to sailing, one might have to board the airplane at least 3 days prior to the flight.

    #2036342
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “I do not think there is an increase in fuel consumption with commercial airliners caused by an individual”

    Sorry, but there is an increase in fuel consumption based on the weight of the aircraft. Some of you may recall episodes where the pilot came on the PA system and advised of a delay while they “took on more fuel” because the flight ended up carrying more passengers than forecast or more baggage.
    Obviously, one or even five additional passengers on a wide-body aircraft won’t materially affect fuel consumption BUT unless they are in a zero gravity bubble within the fuselage, they will cause some very small increase in fuel consumption.

    #2037264
    Romain
    Participant

    The zionists must pay the price for forcing frum jews
    To become secular

    #2037294
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ Romain Every head of lettuce needs to be checked for bugs.
    That level of שנאה for an entire class of people can only come from זערעו של אמלק.

    #2037324
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    GH
    “Obviously, one or even five additional passengers on a wide-body aircraft won’t materially affect fuel consumption”

    fantastic so you agree

    #2037423
    ujm
    Participant

    “materially”? Even one shred is a problem.

    #2037445
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Ubiq: As Bill Clinton would say, it depends on what you mean by “material” and whether there is an explicit de minimis waiver in halacha for “very small” (aka non-material) amounts of fuel combustion on shabbos needed to produce the incremental thrust for the additional weight of several yidden who are very unhappy about potentially being mechallel shabbos for this (or possibly one of several other malachos).

    #2037479
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    GH

    “there is an explicit de minimis waiver in halacha”

    Of course there is. Lo nitna Torah L’malachei hashres. an imperceptible change isnt a change
    If it was you couldn’t enter a house with air conditioning on Shabbos, your body gives of heat, causing the air conditioner to work harder.

    none of this is new, this has been discussed with riding in a car or bus on Shabbos

    #2037558
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    This is the topic being discussed and does not mention what the chilul shabbos is.
    See https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/2037067/south-african-chief-rabbi-protests-forced-chillul-shabbos-in-letter-to-pm.html

    #2037575
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    As by closing a door and a deer gets caught, when done to protect the house it is not a pesik reishe.
    The Rashba explains that if only an issur happens then even if not mechaven for it is a pesik reishe but if a heter can also happen and you are mechaven for the heter then if the issur happens it is not a pesik reishe.

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