November 30, 2021 7:50 am at 7:50 am #2035997tunaisafishParticipant
Im not saying there is or isnt an issur im presuming there is and asking what they would be and what about a case when they are forced like the case of the south africansNovember 30, 2021 9:47 am at 9:47 am #2036060☕️coffee addictParticipant
Causing the plane to burn more fuel?November 30, 2021 9:53 am at 9:53 am #2036045
The Chasam Sofer says that traveling on a steam boat on shabbos is forbidden because of its movement and being ovar on shabbosan not resting on shabbos.November 30, 2021 9:53 am at 9:53 am #2036048Shimon NodelParticipant
Techum, hotzaah, muktza. Even if it was 100% mutar (which it isn’t), this particular scenario was שעת השמד.
It’s יהרג ואל יעבור.
It’s also allowed to kill those forcing them (not practical though)November 30, 2021 9:54 am at 9:54 am #2036050Shimon NodelParticipant
An interesting shaalah would be if it’s allowed to kill them on shabbosNovember 30, 2021 9:54 am at 9:54 am #2036052
Multiple potential issues regarding various formulations of “work” assur on shabbos including, but not limited to your incremental weight/baggage requiring additional kerosene consumption/thrust by engines, techum shabbos, electronic tools used for check-in and onboard, etc. If you must travel, consider using a shabbos compliant “transporter” as per Captain Kirk and Scotty on StarTrek.November 30, 2021 11:50 am at 11:50 am #2036077ujmParticipant
Reb Eliezer, how do people travel by ship on weeks-long journeys?November 30, 2021 11:51 am at 11:51 am #2036080
What about when in the air before shabbos and landing after shabbos? Flying at makom pitur.November 30, 2021 11:52 am at 11:52 am #2036089BenephraimParticipant
So you would have no shayla on the subway? Would you allow it for a mitzvah like…. on Shabbat?November 30, 2021 11:53 am at 11:53 am #2036090Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
> Techum, hotzaah, muktza.
They are not doing anything and not benefitting from any of these. All they did was – got back into the plane upon a lawful government order. They do not care whether the plane will stand on tarmac for a day or fly over the whole world. So, there is surely no issur mdeuraita. And concern for the health of other Jews should surely overrride any other concerns they have.November 30, 2021 11:54 am at 11:54 am #2036103ymribiatParticipant
@ Shimon Nodel. I’m sure you are a very thoughtful. It’s important to state that your post was not.. At the very least, provide sources that a government action broadly applied regardless of religous observance qualified as a שמ”ד. I’m also curious how you reconcile your suggestion that a religious person should shoot his way out of Ben Gurien Airport with the diction that one should be מחלל שבת to save a life.November 30, 2021 11:55 am at 11:55 am #2036142
– No techum in the air, though if takes off on shabbos is a problem on the runway. Even if argue that are 10 tefachuim off the ground, if plane sitting on ground may be a problem
Causing the plane to burn more fuel?
– not sure what melacha that would be? Mavir is it mavir if more fuel gets consumed to do the same “work”? (obviously the plane is doing more work from a scientific standpoint, but I don’t think halacha recognizes that.
for example if I have two cars one gets 30 mpg the other gets 20 mpg is it a bigger melacha to use the less fuel efficient car to drive the same distance? seems doubtful. And of course the amount is negligible
At any rate this has long been discussed regarding cars and busses and Poskim say it is not an issue, comes up with choleh going to hospital or accompanying a child (although are other issues with getting in car/bus on Shabbos)
– don’t carry outdoors, on the plane is not an issue a plane is not a reshus harabim nor a karmelis nor are you going between reshus hayahcids
– Put stuff in a bag that is bassis for heter and issur.
not sayign it is 100% muttar, it definitely isnt shabbosdig, but the issurim are not as great as made out.
It seems to be imore of an inconvenience (understatement) than issurNovember 30, 2021 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #2036167
Is there a generic heter to be mechalel shabbos if done so pursuant to a lawful order of a government agency? While the purported intent of the travel ban was pikuach nefesh, its hard to make the case here that there was a real or imminent public health threat. As a practical matter, I agree that short of being detained or arrested, these individuals had no choice.November 30, 2021 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2036169
“No techum in the air, though if takes off on shabbos is a problem on the runway. Even if argue that are 10 tefachuim off the ground, if plane sitting on ground may be a problem”
The actual flying might not be a techum issue. However, they do have a tchum issue once they arrive, as they are coming from out of the tchum and may need to remain in place.
“Causing the plane to burn more fuel?”
This would be “marbe B’shiurim”. However, its unlikely that any one person would cause a commercial airliner to burn more fuel.November 30, 2021 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2036170
“As a practical matter, I agree that short of being detained or arrested, these individuals had no choice.”
That in its own is a choice, either being detained or flying on shabbos.November 30, 2021 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2036171
I think a ship is different as you don’t feel its movement.November 30, 2021 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2036176Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
> purported intent of the travel ban was pikuach nefesh
Dutch just warehoused two planes from SA. 60 out of 600 people were infected. 13 with new variant.
There is a chain of command during emergency. There is no expectation that every case will be adjudicated to the full degree of lomdus.November 30, 2021 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #2036197
“I think a ship is different as you don’t feel its movement.”
Why would that matter?November 30, 2021 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2036203AviraDeArahParticipant
Complying with government rules is hardly a heter for chilul shabbos; there would have to be a pikuach nefesh issue vis a vis other Jews.November 30, 2021 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2036205
“This would be “marbe B’shiurim””
what is the melacha that he is being marbe? bishul on the fuel? The Thrust is the same, just needs (negligibly) more fuel to achieve it
Agree on deplaningNovember 30, 2021 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #2036219NonImpeditiRationeCogitationisParticipant
@Red Eliezer Crossing the Atlantic from Western Europe to NYC took 7-14 days on a steamship and anywhere from 40 to 90 days under a sail. Many observant Jews undertook this journey. How was that allowed?November 30, 2021 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #2036227akupermaParticipant
As long as you stayed with the tehum (roughly a kilometer) it would probably be okay as long as you don’t use any sort of engine (assuming you could manage to grow powerful wings, but that might raise the problem of mixed breeding with other species). The major problem is that Ha-Shem created gravity, and gave us relative heavy bodies, and those whose bodies are designed for flight have very small brains. This might be a shailoh if Yidden ever manage to get into space or on other planets.November 30, 2021 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #2036230
These halachos are brought down in Shulchan Aruch,November 30, 2021 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #2036231
The Chasam Sofer is in Shut Likutei Chasam Sofer 97.November 30, 2021 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #2036232
Apparently, the increased fuel consumption is bishul, but as I wrote, I do not think there is an increase in fuel consumption with commercial airliners caused by an individual.November 30, 2021 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #2036242
2scents, the Chasam Sofer does not like the movement of one’s body by the steamship which disturbs his rest on shabbos, so I don’t know what the answer to your question is.November 30, 2021 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #2036297
Thanks for explaining.November 30, 2021 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #2036298
The Chasam Sofer and the end of the above teshuva differentiates between a ship and a steamship where the ship rests and the water carries it, so it does not affect the person traveling whereas the steamship moves affecting the person traveling.November 30, 2021 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #2036293
I don’t know if a plane is like a steamship or a ship carried by the wind.November 30, 2021 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #2036332
If we were to compare flying to sailing, one might have to board the airplane at least 3 days prior to the flight.November 30, 2021 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #2036342
“I do not think there is an increase in fuel consumption with commercial airliners caused by an individual”
Sorry, but there is an increase in fuel consumption based on the weight of the aircraft. Some of you may recall episodes where the pilot came on the PA system and advised of a delay while they “took on more fuel” because the flight ended up carrying more passengers than forecast or more baggage.
Obviously, one or even five additional passengers on a wide-body aircraft won’t materially affect fuel consumption BUT unless they are in a zero gravity bubble within the fuselage, they will cause some very small increase in fuel consumption.December 2, 2021 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #2037264RomainParticipant
The zionists must pay the price for forcing frum jews
To become secularDecember 2, 2021 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #2037294ymribiatParticipant
@ Romain Every head of lettuce needs to be checked for bugs.
That level of שנאה for an entire class of people can only come from זערעו של אמלק.December 2, 2021 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #2037324
“Obviously, one or even five additional passengers on a wide-body aircraft won’t materially affect fuel consumption”
fantastic so you agreeDecember 2, 2021 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #2037423ujmParticipant
“materially”? Even one shred is a problem.December 2, 2021 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #2037445
Ubiq: As Bill Clinton would say, it depends on what you mean by “material” and whether there is an explicit de minimis waiver in halacha for “very small” (aka non-material) amounts of fuel combustion on shabbos needed to produce the incremental thrust for the additional weight of several yidden who are very unhappy about potentially being mechallel shabbos for this (or possibly one of several other malachos).December 2, 2021 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #2037479
“there is an explicit de minimis waiver in halacha”
Of course there is. Lo nitna Torah L’malachei hashres. an imperceptible change isnt a change
If it was you couldn’t enter a house with air conditioning on Shabbos, your body gives of heat, causing the air conditioner to work harder.
none of this is new, this has been discussed with riding in a car or bus on ShabbosDecember 2, 2021 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #2037558
This is the topic being discussed and does not mention what the chilul shabbos is.
See https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/2037067/south-african-chief-rabbi-protests-forced-chillul-shabbos-in-letter-to-pm.htmlDecember 3, 2021 1:00 am at 1:00 am #2037575
As by closing a door and a deer gets caught, when done to protect the house it is not a pesik reishe.
The Rashba explains that if only an issur happens then even if not mechaven for it is a pesik reishe but if a heter can also happen and you are mechaven for the heter then if the issur happens it is not a pesik reishe.
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