What is the true "state" of Israel

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    Rabbi of Crawley

    I just wanted to see if people agree on the fact that the Israeli government and Israelis in general is.. It is, basically a very, very sad story.

    They wanted to build a “state” where jews can live safely, in peace and prosperity together.

    They have Done none of that at all. In fact, they have created

    ,well you don’t even have to look at an Israeli taxi driver to see what they have created.

    Just take the average Israeli person. He doesn’t feel relaxed, he is stressed, tense, nervous. Nervous about who is around the corner, nervous about how he will feed his family.

    The Israelis built up a country where rights were given to the enemy, rights that make it simple to kill, attack and tear the moral of the country to pieces.

    The governments who call themselves jewish, fund and endorse the preservation of churches, which are avodah zorah 100 percent.

    Their police force is so lax when it comes to arabs, for fear of what other countries think of this “prosperous nation” but when it comes to jews,,, REAL jews, chareidim, they hate them with a passion and beat them cruelly, ive seen it many times myself.

    They are so Twisted. They built their country up in a way that it is considered a developed country by the international community yet more than half its citizens are living in serious poverty.

    They saw the results of assimilation in Germany, yet they foolishly decided to make their country assimilate just like the germans but,without the non jews. They assimilate in the cinema, TV and going to Thailand.

    …And yet the religious growth rate is so high that in just a couple of years, secular and “traditional”(a special word for secular)” jews will be a minority in the country.


    I heard someone in LA speaking ivirit to his children i asked him why he speaks ivrit to them, so he said I t makes his children proud to be Israeli. SO I said to him that by leaving a country that is lacking financial stability and moving to the US , you are making them feel embarrassed to be Israeli. He had no answer

    What are/were they thinking. netanyahu, rabin, Shamir,begin how do you think going chukas hagoy in eretz yisrAael is going to work. I understand that chukas hagoy is always forbidden.

    Perhaps even pikuach nefesh.

    I don’t know, maybe they had a heter from the chief rabbi, like heter mechirah, there is heter hanhogoh


    The governments who call themselves jewish, fund and endorse the preservation of churches, which are avodah zorah 100 percent.

    Many of the churches are owned by someone else especially the Armenian church who owns alot of the land in israel (and interesting enough the land where the Knesset is built on)

    The christian tourists provide alot of jobs, like it or not, its needed income especially for Jerusalem which is a poor city and not many economic opportunities outside of tourism (Tel Aviv has alot more economic opportunity)


    The zionists (defined as the majority in the 1947-1949 period, as demonstrated by the vote in the first elections) wanted a place where Jews could live in peace and be as totally goyish as they wanted. For the most part they have been successful. While most of the zionists are disappointed that there are so many shuls and yeshivos (what they were trying to be free of), they find nothing objectionable to “avodah zara” – heck that’s a feature to them, not a bug. How the zionists will react to the “demographic crisis” (frum Jews becoming a majority) is unknown – but remember they control the economy, the military and the criminal justice system

    Avi K

    Crawley, Actually, an OECD poll showed that Israelis are among the happiest in the world (#5 after Denmark, Iceland, Switzerland and Finland). Israel is one of the best places to raise children (#4 after Austria, Sweden and Finland according to the Family Life Index). It has one of the best medical systems(#28 on the WHO list). You are over on the sin of the spies. Or you are overcompensating for guilt feeling at not living here.


    You know, it’s pretty funny how people mention “facts” about life in Israel that have no basis in reality. The OP, for example, describes an Israeli as someone who “doesn’t feel relaxed, he is stressed, tense, nervous”. In fact, Israel ranked 11th in the world in the 2016 “happiness index” – ahead of the US, which ranked 13th.

    Poverty is another made-up statistic – the OP says that “more than half its citizens are living in serious poverty”. In fact, the poverty rate in Israel is just under 21% – admittedly too high (the OECD average is 11%, while the US is at about 17%), but far from “more than half”.

    The OP also refer to Chareidim as “REAL Jews”, implying that all other Jews are somehow less than “real”. I hate to break it to you, but that’s not the Halachic criteria for being Jewish – and in fact, not even the majority of Shomrei Torah uMitzvos in the world are Chareidi.

    As to the preservation of churches – there are several points that the OP ignores. Firstly, it is not clear at all that Christianity is Halachic Avoda Zara for a non-Jew. The problematic belief (which is absolute Avoda Zara for a Jew) is that there is a “partnership” – Shituf – with HKB”H. There are many poskim amongst the Rishonim who hold that for a non-Jew, such belief does not rise to the level of Avoda Zara. There’s also the fact that if Jews in Israel started demolishing churches there, they’d be endangering not only themselves, but Jews everywhere in the world. As such, there is firm Halachic grounding for the approach of the Israeli government on this issue.

    None of the above is to say that the State of Israel, in its current form, is perfect – there is clearly much to improve. That being said, the OP’s negative attitude is, in many ways, worse than that of the Meraglim – they at least first praised the land before reporting the negatives, and they did not make things up completely the way the OP did.

    Tova HaAretz Me’od Me’od – the land is a gift to us from HKB”H, and we should look at it that way. We accept the generous gift, and will continue to work to bring it to its full potential, unlike those who sit on the side and whine.

    an Israeli Yid


    and in fact, not even the majority of Shomrei Torah uMitzvos in the world are Chareidi.

    Actually a majority of Shomrei Torah uMitzvos in the world are Chareidi. In the U.S., 2/3 of Orthodox Jews are Chareidi (Pew Research, 2013). In Israel it is about the same number of Chareidim and Daati, with Chareidim increasing at a much higher rate. (Pew released a detailed demographic study on Israel a few months ago.) And the rest of the world’s Orthodox Jews combined don’t outweigh these demographics from the U.S. and Israel, which account for a large majority of Orthodox Jewry.


    Joseph – the majority of Orthodox Jews in the US would not be considered “Chareidi” by Israeli standards. Specifically, “American Yeshivish” is not the same as Israeli Chareidi by a long stretch – which would tip the balance. It’s all a matter of definition – and being in Israel, I use Israeli standards.

    In any case, you’ve chosen to focus on one side point I mentioned (which I believe you to be wrong on), rather than the main point of that section of my comment – which is that it is wrong to treat Chareidim as the only “real” Jews. Do you agree with me on that main point? You also ignore the bulk of what I said – is that, perhaps, a sign that you do not dispute it?

    an Israeli Yid

    Rabbi of Crawley

    an Israeli yid

    The surveys don’t always tell the truth .

    It is clear that Israel should not be considered a developed country. It has the highest rate of inequality in the OECD.


    the nice sport centres, parks promenades,hospitals and ambulances- they are sponsored either from american funded organisations such as jnf ,kkl, mda usa, mizrachi, wzo,

    or from mr peter goldberg, or sam goldstein from dallas, miami, la or wisconsin and many other conservative jews who love donating to impoverished palestinians and btselem and while they are at it will sponsor some parks in sderot and sports centre in holon

    the rest comes from the us government which sponsors a huge sum to israel -3billionusd annually and from various other countries

    mi kamcha yisrael – the jews are so generous to eretz yisrael- i am sure no other world country has so many kind donors chipping in to its coffers-otherwise india pakistan, somalia , afghanistan etc would all be in the oecd

    Go to amman and tell me if the city centre there looks different from Tel aviv, i don’t think so.


    To the OP:

    If you’re just going to reject reliable third-party reports on the status of Israel, there is no point in continuing this conversation.

    As one who has had the Zechus to live in Israel for just about the last 15 years, I can assure you that your “observations” are laguhable.

    Oh – and just FYI – the OECD stats measure things like GDP, which is a masure of economic output – not amounts remitted by expats or donors. Israel does pretty well by that standard too.

    I wish you a good life.

    an Israeli Yid


    Many of the churches are owned by someone else especially the Armenian church who owns alot of the land in israel (and interesting enough the land where the Knesset is built on)


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