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  • #618025

    Sparkly
    Member

    what is your definition of OTD, MO, Yeshivish, chasidish,regular (frum yid)? Since most peoples opinions vary.

    #1163917

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    what is your definition of OTD, MO, Yeshivish, chasidish,regular (frum yid)?

    So, MO, Yeshivish or Chassidic people aren’t “regular, frum yidden?”

    The Wolf

    #1163918

    Abba_S
    Participant

    OTD doesn’t believe in g-d and throws of the whole religion.

    MO, Yeshivish & Chassidic are all regular frum yidden they just have different outlooks. With the merger of the OU and agudah I think MO is coming back to be similiar to Yeshivish & Chassidish.

    #1163919

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Abba I don’t think otd = atheist many of them were harmed by parents/teachers/society and rejected those people not g-d.

    #1163920

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    OTD is people who are PUSHED OUT , not people who have left.

    #1163921

    akuperma
    Participant

    The terms are all subjective and often depends on context.

    #1163922

    Sparkly
    Member

    The Goq – as someone who almost went otd because of reasons like that the only reason why im religious today is because i believe in G-d nothing can make a person go off if they truly believe.

    Abbas-S – as someone who is mo we like to just stay to ourselves so no we dont plan on becoming yeshivish and chasidish and no offense many mo people really dislike chasidim i happen to love chasdidim but many mo people dislike them.

    #1163923

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Did I miss something? When did the OU and the Agudah merge?

    #1163924

    Joseph
    Participant

    lc: You didn’t hear? It’s now the Union of Agudas Yisroel Orthodoxy.

    #1163925

    Abba_S: You’ve never heard of someone who left Orthodoxy for Conservative or Reform Judaism? Someone who is no longer “on the derech” of frumkeit, but still believes in God and practices Judaism?

    #1163926

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Regular frum Yid: You. Everyone imagines themselves as centre of the spectrum, and everyone else is left or right of him.

    #1163927

    Jf: Thats not OTD that’s just delusion.

    #1163928

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    OTD doesn’t believe in g-d and throws of the whole religion.

    Nonsense. I know many people who are OTD, not atheists, and don’t throw out the “whole religion.”

    The Wolf

    #1163929

    Subtitle please: Why is it not OTD?

    #1163930

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “OTD is people who are PUSHED OUT , not people who have left.”

    Doesnt the “O” = Off? Since when did it signify a specific reason why one was off. One could have fallen off, walked off or have been pushed off. Off is off. The why might determine how you deal with that person and help put them back on the proper path.

    #1163931

    Joseph
    Participant

    jf02, Subtitle’s telling you that it is delusionary to think one could practice a form of non-Orthodoxy while imagining that he “practices Judaism”.

    #1163933

    First of all, that doesn’t negate the fact that he is still OTD. As apushatayid pointed out, if he’s off, he’s off. Could be any circumstance why or how.

    Second of all– guess what, a Jew who does some mitzvos but not others is still a Jew and still practicing Judaism. Perhaps not perfectly, but he’s still doing it. It boggles my mind how people can have so much hatred in their hearts toward our non-frum brethren that they would go so far as to think that the Torah is all or nothing. It’s not. Once again, Chabad is way ahead of the rest of the frum world on this.

    I once heard a beautiful story about a lesbian couple that one of the women had been raised as a Jew and the other as a Catholic. The Catholic Church (obviously) rejected them, they tried out Buddhism, and eventually made their way to Judaism. Their local Chabad rebbetzin welcomed them warmly, with no judgment, and provided them with Shabbos candles every week. Unfortunately, the Jewish woman was diagnosed with cancer and died at a very young age, and her partner wrote a wonderful letter to the rebbetzin thanking her for all of her warmth and support over the years (what a tremendous Kiddush Hashem!)

    This rebbetzin was interviewed for a Jewish radio station and the interviewer asked her why she got involved with these women, knowing that they were romantic partners.

    The rebbetzin responded, “I’ve never heard of a halacha that says that if someone doesn’t keep one mitzvah, that means that she’s exempt from all the others.”

    Bottom line: mitzvah observance and Torah study is precious to Hashem, regardless of the quantity or context. If a person decides not to be Orthodox, that’s not a signal for us to give up on them completely, shun them from the community, and all but spit in their faces. On the contrary, we must meet them at their level, treat them with utmost compassion and respect (but not condescension) and, to the best of our ability, enable them to perform whatever mitzvos they DO want to do.

    If Torah observance was all or nothing, literally zero people would be “practicing Judaism” according to you, Joseph. Because literally nobody in the world does it perfectly.

    #1163934

    Joseph
    Participant

    jf02, Conservative and Reform, which is what you raised in your earlier comment, is heresy.

    #1163935

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “literally nobody in the world does it perfectly.”

    There is a difference between not doing something perfectly and making a conscious decision to simply ignore something, or worse, publicly flaunt what one chooses to ignore. Performing 612 out of 613 mitzvos perfectly, but deliberately ignoring that last one does not make one a .9983686 tzadik, it makes someone a 100% sinner.

    #1163936

    JF: I was referring solely to reform and conservative. Someone who doesn’t believe in torah misinai or believes the torah is divinely inspired (whatever that’s supposed to mean) can keep every one of the

    613 commandments but they still won’t be keeping the torah.

    Not really sure where hatred comes in……

    #1163937

    Sparkly
    Member

    jewishfeminist – i like that definition of what the new off the derech your reform or conservative. it is true they are reform or conservative because you can never stop being jewish. very good point you should try keeping as much of the torah as possible for G-d.

    apushatayid – you cant be “kicked off the derech” if you believe in G-d you do what G-d says they didnt believe in G-d and went against G-d and went off the derech. they werent really frum from the beginning. they grew up and had no choice besides to be frum because their parents raised them that way. they didnt believe in G-d to begin with. they did it for their parents. once the school did that they wanted to find a way to get back at them and choice something that goes against G-d.

    Any idea of how to do kiruv in a college setting. Its kind of weird to just walk up to someone and be like i want you to come to my house or wherever and that way youll get a chance to do kiruv on them.

    #1163938

    Abba_S
    Participant

    I think some of you may have misunderstood what I meant. I am not saying that MO will adapt the Hasidic garb. What I am seeing is MO are starting to take learning and davening more seriously.

    As far as OTD meaning someone going to Reform Conservative or Reconstruction, I don’t know anyone that did that. I do know back 40 years ago Orthodox Rabbi were taking position in Conservative synagogues.

    While the O in OTD stands for off, in my opinion the OTD is rebelling against society due to a grievance and is taking it out against g-d. They are putting their parents in a position of choosing between keeping them at home and having their other children go OTD or asking the child to leave. Blaming society for his action I think is wrong. If he can’t get along with his parents or sibling he could live with a relative. But no Orthodox Jew wants a goy living in their house. After they are kicked out they stay with friends or sleeping in shuls that have combination locks. I know this because I open up, i tell them I got no problem with the arrangement but when people come to daven they have to look like they come to daven. somebody broke into the charity box and they were banished.

    #1163939

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Any idea of how to do kiruv in a college setting. Its kind of weird to just walk up to someone and be like i want you to come to my house or wherever and that way youll get a chance to do kiruv on them.

    You dont walk up to people on a college setting, you have to run events that people would want to go to. It has to be some combination of Judaism and social setting

    #1163940

    Sparkly
    Member

    Abba -s – you cant stop being jewish. i dont know about them (mo people) starting to take learning more seriously i mean there not that religious. they do whatever they want. they dont care what other people say about them. i think their their usual selves.

    zahavasdad- but its depressing to see so many lost souls at school. i wanna help them.

    #1163941

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Exactly opposite Abba they take it out on the people who ruined it for them their grievance is not with HKBH the Torah lifestyle is wonderful but if the people who are supposed to instill love for HKBH do hateful things that message is lost.

    #1163942

    Sparkly
    Member

    The Goq – thats what the OTDers claim to get themselves out of having to keep the Torah.

    #1163943

    Abba_S
    Participant

    Goq: While they may think they are hurting their parents, teachers, friends or others, the OTD are only hurting themselves. While they think they are the center of attention, the friends and family ignore them resulting in suicide and other antisocial behavior. I am not a social worker but I think early intervention might solve these problems at a lower cost to society.

    Sparkly: While legally once you are born a Jew you are always a Jew. People who act like they are a ” Goy” are called a goy. What I mean by taking learning seriously is that more and more MO are learning the Daf Yomi. The only MO I deal with are those who come to the Mincha Minyan, which is why I think they are taking learning and davening more seriously, so this may not be indicative of MO as a whole.

    #1163944

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Ive repeated this before

    MO is a broader spectrum that charedism, Basically people who are charedi do not differ much in relgious observance from each other. and if you veer from that, you either leave, or are kicked out.

    MO is alot more of a broader range of relgious observance, They use Shabbos and Kashruth as the baseline. If you keep those 2 things, they consider you orthodox and from there the observance varies from women who wear pants and do not cover their hair to people who basically are charedi, but might wear a kippah seruga during the week and wear more western dress

    #1163945

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Sparkly

    Yeshivas and Seminiaries do not teach you this, however prostelizing is not really acceptable in the greater world and can get you into trouble if done incorrectly.

    College Campuses and even more so work place environments, you have to be real careful what you say and do. You can be punished for prostelizing. A simple example. You are in an office with a co-worker who is not religous and you hear them over the phone discussing their friday night plans which includes going to McDonalds and Having a cheeseburger and then driving elsewhere. You are not allowed to say anything.

    On a college campus you might see a table for Zen Budaism and someone you know is going over for that table. you cannot stand near that table and block people from going to the Buddiast table with the statue of the Buddah. The dean can reprimand or expel you for doing so.

    Groups that do kiruv on college campuses and workplace environments know how to maze through these things (Regardless of what might have been heard, Hillels, Chabads etc are welcome on college campuses, just as long as they follow the rules..which isnt as hard as you think)

    #1163946

    Sparkly
    Member

    Abba -s – you shouldnt be calling a jew a goy thats a perfect way to make sure theyll stay off the derech. your labeling someone and theyll keep that label and one day they couldve become frum but they didnt because of you. What do you consider mo? Its true OTD people are only hurting themselves because their trying to rebel to show that someone did something wrong to them while you keep the Torah for G-d not for another person.

    zahavasdad – most mo dont wear a kippah. they dont cover their hair or theyll barely cover their hair. i dont need to cover my hair when i get married but i choose to because im more religious than mo. I know you cant proselytize in college thats why we dont talk about religion and no matter how much they talk about yeshkah imach shemo i just ignore them.

    #1163947

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Sparkly:

    1: I did not write kicked off, I wrote pushed off, by circumstances and lifes experiences.

    2: “most mo dont wear a kippah.”

    How do you know this? Do you personally know a majority of “MO” people, or have you polled them? I think you are wrong because the overwhelming majority of people I know who claim to be MO do in fact where a kippah. Still, I can not, and will not make a blanket statement that “most MO do or dont do X since I dont know the majority of MO adherents to make such a statement”.

    “they dont cover their hair or theyll barely cover their hair.”

    Again, how do you know this? My personaly experience says you are wrong, but my personal experience is not enough to make blanket statements about a large group of people.

    “i dont need to cover my hair when i get married”

    I will assume you are a male then? If you are a female, you DO need to cover your hair, in public because the Halacha mandates that you do.

    “but i choose to because im more religious than mo.”

    This is a mistaken statement, you do it because you choose to? Thats nice and all, but where is Hashem in the equation? doing it because Hashem said to is why you should, not because you choose to. Doing something because you choose to (or not doing something for similar reason)removes Hashem completely from the equation and your religiousness hardly matters.

    #1163948

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    A regular Yid is a Chiloni (as per Onkelos).

    #1163949

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    “but i choose to because im more religious than mo.”

    I’m frummer than you are, I’m frummer than you are

    🙂

    #1163950

    Joseph: And if it is heresy? Therefore what?

    apushatayid: Yes, there are some people who choose not to do mitzvos and others who simply don’t know how to do them well, or don’t know that they should be doing them in the first place, etc. But again: what is the nafka minah? We should be supporting and encouraging people who want to take things on, not rejecting and demeaning them because they aren’t all the way there yet.

    Subtitle please: A) Not all Conservative and Reform folks deny the existence of God or the divinity of the Torah, and B) Even for those that do, it is still better for them to keep some mitzvos than none. Even if they are doing them for the wrong reasons, like if they don’t believe that they are specifically commanded by God to do them, that doesn’t negate the fact that they are doing them. Where does hatred come in? Seriously, look around you. Try searching “reform” in the Coffee Room search box and see what you get. There is zero compassion, there is zero understanding, just hateful criticism and gleeful superiority.

    Abba_S: I’m surprised that you have never heard of anyone leaving Orthodoxy for Reform or Conservative Judaism. They are all over the place. Organizations like Footsteps are full of people who still feel an attachment to Torah and to Judaism, they just need a new environment to practice. You seem to have a lot of misconceptions…not all OTD are rebellious and angry. And OTD is NOT a contagious disease, that their siblings will go OTD also if the OTD child is not removed from the house. And OTD is not “a goy”. I personally would be delighted to welcome an OTD child into my house, but I would be very saddened that he really had nowhere else to go.

    The Goq: 100%

    zahavasdad: If not constrained by university policies, what would you ideally do in the situations you mention? McDonalds and the Zen Buddhism table. I’d really like to know.

    Sparkly: I don’t think you understand what MO is. I live in an MO community and 90-95% of the married women cover their hair, 100% of the men wear a yarmulke while not at work and 98% at work.

    #1163951

    Joseph
    Participant

    Joseph: And if it is heresy? Therefore what?

    Therefore you cannot state that their adherents “practices Judaism”.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/condemnation-of-jerusalem-parade/page/2#post-616562

    #1163952

    Sure I can. Judaism isn’t all or nothing. They may not be practicing Judaism in the best way, or the most consistent way, or the most halachically ideal way (or whatever other epithet you like), but Judaism is still Judaism and even if they reject parts of it, that doesn’t negate the fact that they’re still practicing in some way. What are they, Mormons?

    The only people who call themselves practicing Jews who really, truly aren’t, are Hebrew Christians (so-called “Messianic Jews”).

    #1163953

    Joseph
    Participant

    A heretical denomination cannot be described as practicing Judaism.

    #1163954

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Judaism isn’t all or nothing.”

    It IS when someone says, I pick this, but wont do that, and this I will do every other week. when one does this they are not practicing judaism, they are practicing certain things that jews do because they like doing them for whatever reason. this is very different than someone who knows little to nothing and is sincerely trying to learn something.

    #1163955

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “but Judaism is still Judaism and even if they reject parts of it, that doesn’t negate the fact that they’re still practicing in some way.”

    “The only people who call themselves practicing Jews who really, truly aren’t, are Hebrew Christians (so-called “Messianic Jews”).”

    These 2 statements of yours are contradictory. The so called messianics also practice in “some way”. According to you, whats the difference what the person rejects, so long as they practice in some way you should consider them pacticing judaism”.

    #1163956

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Sparkly, can I ask what region of the country you live in? I have a suggestion for you depending on where.

    #1163957

    The difference is that belief in Yoshke is 100% incompatible with Judaism. Even a Jewish atheist can be said to be practicing Judaism in some way, but an idol worshipper, absolutely not.

    Reform and Conservative Jews who don’t keep the entire Torah aren’t just keeping what they do keep because “they like doing it for whatever reason”. It’s not just for fun. Many of them believe that they are mandated by halacha, some do it because it helps them feel a connection to HKBH, and others do it to connect with the heritage. All of those are valid reasons and are very much connected to Judaism. Even if you believe that there is only one right way to practice, that doesn’t mean you have to deny your brethren a place at the table. You might strongly disagree with their lifestyle, but that doesn’t warrant denying that they’re a part of the tribe. Reform rabbis wake up every morning and put on tefillin, daven, learn, officiate at funerals, teach Torah, and promote chessed. If that isn’t “practicing Judaism,” I don’t know what is.

    #1163958

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The messianics are just as sincere and feel the same connection.

    #1163959

    miamilawyer
    Participant

    The standard at my MO high school to be considered frum was Shabbos, Kashrus and Taharat hamishpacha. Now obviously, Shabbos and Kashrus have wide variances in observance, but basically, if your intent was to observe, you were considered in.

    Conservative is basically its own halachic movement that uses halacha as a guide, and claims to adhere to it, but they accept every lenience and make their own if they feel like it (driving to shul on Shabbos ok).

    The chatam soffers reform is NOT the reform of today. The reform of today believes that halacha is valuable, and you should do as much of it as you can, but its an individual choice. This is much different than the views of the past that many of the laws were ridiculous, etc… Todays reform recognizes the value of all halacha, they just “pasken” that its not mandatory (but it is still aspirational) and they also change things to be egalitarian.

    #1163961

    Sparkly
    Member

    apushtayid – i am mo myself just more religious than most mo people so i know a lot of mo people. my rabbi is mo. some of the mo people wear yarmulkas and take them off sometimes and so on. it depends on the person. but most wear colorful ones. if you disagree with that statement than we obviously think of mo differently. Also i didnt mean they ALL dont wear yarmulkas i meant some dont and some wear them and take them off sometimes and the others war colorful ones. Tznius depends on where you live. According to my rabbi who is mo you dont need to wear a sheitel. You can ask my rabbi why he says that but im not him so cant answer for him. I know plenty of mo people who dont wear sheitels. In fact the ones who weaer pants and wear sheitels just makes me think they dont like their hair and thats why their covering it because its more important to wear tznius clothing than a sheitel.

    #1163962

    Sparkly
    Member

    jewish feminist – what do you mean i dont understand what mo is? im mo myself and so is my rabbi. so how do you define mo than? and many mo people dont wear sheitels consider this situation this girl wears skirts right above her knees and short sleeves and keeps shabbos and kosher and some other stuff but she doesnt cover her hair. That girl is considered mo. Also consider this guy he doesnt wear a yarmulka, wears jeans, etc…. he keeps shabbos and kosher and some other stuff. His considered mo. If your referring to jews who werent born frum or went OTD chasvichallila and started keeping christian things and their god imach shemo its still better that they celebrate chaunkah than nothing maybe one chanukah will bring them back on?

    apushtayid – so they shouldnt do anything? Just give it all up? Go all the way OTD? If his not wearing a yarmulka why doesnt he stop keeping shabbos and kosher as well? No he should keep however much he can.

    yichusdik – i will not be saying where i live on here sorry. it happens to be a bit more mo community but their are still very religious people living here including chasidim.

    #1163963

    jewishfeminist02

    The difference is that belief in Yoshke is 100% incompatible with Judaism

    So is reform (Judaism).

    A reform temple has the same halachic status as a church, as a matter of fact one may sooner enter a mosque than a reform temple.

    Contrary to what you think this has nothing to do with hatred or intolerance.

    The simple fact is, that any form of JUDAISM that runs counter to the principles of our faith, is not JUDAISM and it’s adherents cannot be considered to be practising Jews (70 paths but only 1 torah).

    So by all means, reach out to your reform brothers and sisters, help when they’re in need, daven for them and btomg them close, but by no means can we give any legitimacy or semi-legitimacy to their religion.

    #1163964

    ” Judaism isn’t all or nothing.”

    In Belief, IT SURE is

    In Practice,far from it

    #1163965

    cont..

    Practice takes a lifetime and even that is too much for some

    BUT,

    Rav Aharon Kotler, warned that the greatest threat facing Jewry is

    [not inter-marriage or assimilation, but rather] perversion of the Torah,

    (Mishnas Reb Aharon 1:2,3:6).

    #1163966

    Joseph
    Participant

    A large portion of the members of the Reform and Conservative religions are complete gentiles and not Jewish. This is a result of over a century of intermarriages, invalid conversions, children/grandchildren/etc. of intermarriages and invalid conversions, and half a century of paternal descent.

    #1163967

    ptcha
    Member

    MO : anyone who you perceive as being less religious than you.

    Yeshivish : anyone who went to a better yeshiva than you.

    Chassidic : anyone with bigger payos and a furrier hat than you.

    Frum Yid : Your chavrusa, maybe… but he stopped keeping chalav yisroel after getting food poisoning, so he’s pretty much OTD.

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