What Is Your Ideal Endgame In Israel?
- This topic has 129 replies, 30 voices, and was last updated 10 years ago by mdd.
March 12, 2013 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #608567
I wanted to post what my (personal, not the Gedolim’s) thoughts on what the best endgame would be for all sides in Israel:
1: End the draft. There is no need to have a full fledged draft, as the manpower is not needed. Incentives can be given to those who join (such as housing & education after they leave the army), but no specific draft.
2: Separate Church & State. It is not worth the cost to Halacha. Included in that would be to end all funding to all non-public schools and all Rabbanate Kashrus. Use that funding to incentivize the army.
3: Change the Kenesset: The Kenesset would based on geography. Initially set this up geographically so that the expected MK pattern is similar to the current MK pattern in the Kenesset. This will make MK’s responsible to the voters so that people like Bennett know they would be voted out next election.
This set up would be better for the Charaidim (as the draft is abolished), and better for the rest of the country. The only losers would be the “Mamlachtim”, who think the state is the new “halacha” and they can override actual halacha (silly, I know).March 12, 2013 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #937888
2: See 1 above.March 12, 2013 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #937889
2: See 1 above.
What is your plan if he doesnt come tommorrow?
One shouldnt quit their job, Sell their house and all their belongings because Moshaich MIGHT come today. One can belive Moshaich will come and still live normallyMarch 12, 2013 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #937890shnitzyMember
Interesting, gavra…March 12, 2013 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #937891
phrum: Of course. However, That might not be what the Chilonim think is best. It would be interesting to see what their faces look like when they see what they have been fighting.
Besides, who says Moshiach will be Charaidi? Perhaps he will be Dati? What will the Gedolim say then?March 12, 2013 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #937892
If you are talkng about plans for Israelbefore Moshiach, then that isn’t called “endgame”!March 12, 2013 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #937893
(I was only responding to the question in the title heading and referenced the structure on your post body but not it’s content.)March 12, 2013 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #937894
The end game involves restoration of the monarchy, a sanhedrin and an kohen gadol. It’s the middle game that’s problematic. In such a state, all military units would resemble hesder units, and hilonim would be in charge of nothing more important than cleaning latrines.
In the interim, and realizing that it is probably impossible for a zionist state to ever make peace with the goyim (a major factor in our gedolim having opposed the zionists), they should switch to a professional army. Based on the percentage of volunteers for combat units, they shouldn’t have a problem. If they want frum recruits, they’ll have to offer them terms and conditions of service that are attractive.March 12, 2013 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #937895Yserbius123Participant
Agree on (1) and (2). I see no reason that the Knesset should be geographical based, I think the current system is fine.
Real peace with the Palestinians. Let them have Gaza and declare it a Palestinian State. It’s not like Israel wants it anyways. Come up with some sort of plan to give them the West Bank and Natzeret but keep Gush Etzion and Beitar. (We don’t need the rest. Set everyone up with cheap housing in the Negev.) Get the US to agree to send troops over to keep the peace for the at least next decade until all terrorists are dead or in jail and there has been no violence for three years. Put the Old City and surrounding area under UN control.
I have a weird degree of confidence in a Chareidi Knesset. Once there is no longer the need to have a “Jewish State” due to the unpopularity of religious and secular Zionism in the Knesset there should be less of a problem giving up settlements.March 12, 2013 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #937896
akuperma: See, we can agree. 🙂March 12, 2013 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #937897
As an American, I think the British parliamentary system is too indirect and doesn’t give the people enough of a voice. Of course I’d like to see a constitutional monarchy but in the meantime I believe Israel has enough citizens and regions for a small republic. The Haredi tzibur will simply not accept a non-Haredi king, so I think at some point they’re going to pack up and leave Israel to wait for their own Moshiach.March 12, 2013 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #937898SecularFrummyMember
Constitutional monarchy? Where to I submit my application to be the king?March 12, 2013 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #937899Geordie613Participant
I think moshiach will be chareidi, but will arrive wearing a srugi, just to test our ahavas yisroel.March 12, 2013 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #937900popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I think moshiach will be chareidi, but will arrive wearing a srugi, just to test our ahavas yisroel.
Or maybe to test our convictions.March 12, 2013 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #937901Mobe613Member
I really don’t think there is going to be a monarchy. Its unclear if a monarchy was ever intended for Israel in the first place, and it is clear from Navi (gasp, i read the rest of the torah other than the first five books) that all monarchies ended in disaster.
No reason the new moshiach state can’t be a democracy. Sure the sources don’t mention a democracy, but since the concept didnt exist at the time you would hardly expect it to be talked about.
I would just read all references to kings as references to government powers which could be a democracy as well.March 12, 2013 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #937902
Mobe613: You really think moshiach will want to be a mere prime minister?
Actually, if a Jewish state were establised in accordance with Torah’s constitutional principles, the head of state would be either a “Melech Yisrael” or perhaps a Regent (Malei makom or perhaps an “Apitropus” similar in theory to the English “Lord protector”). However it isn’t likely the zionists would ever go along with having a Jewish state. Meaning we are stuck with the current regime and need to muddle through (like we always have done in the past) until they go away, which is the nature of all effemeral goyish governments.March 12, 2013 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #937903
Mobe613, it is openly stated in many places that a real Jewish state must be a Torah-based monarchy.March 12, 2013 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #937904
“I think moshiach will be chareidi, but will arrive wearing a srugi, just to test our ahavas yisroel. “
So he will be breslov?March 12, 2013 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #937905
In the ancient world he idea of a Democracy was generally foreign an unknown to many. While Rome (Before Julius Ceaser) and Athens were republics for the most part the of an elected government was unknown until at least the 1600’s in England.
Nobody knew of anything other than a monarchyMarch 12, 2013 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #937906Mobe613Member
MDD- but those sources date back to before democracy existed. The only governments in those times were monarchies, so there was no hava amina the other way.March 12, 2013 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #937907
I believe in separating school from state. End the public school system, end direct funding to yeshivas and just give people vouchers. If people want chiloni schools, let them have their own private chiloni schools.March 12, 2013 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #937908
Reminded me of the old joke that of course Moshiach will be a Haredi Ashkenaz, because if he wasn’t the Haredei Ashkenaziim would never accept him, and Sephardim and Dattim and MO’s and Mizrachim and Ethiopians and Hippies Jews and NeoHasids and Punk Jews all the other Yidden will accept and fllow Moshiach not mater who he is! (but of course that’s just a joke and not true…).
But remeber, a lot of references to Moshiach are actually to Ben Yosef. B”H the Abisher is sending us two Moshiachs – Ben Yosef and Ben Dovid – so we could have a Haredi Mosiach and a Srugi Moshiach, an Ashkenaz and a Sephardi, a Litzak and a Chasid, a Mizrach and an Ethiopian, and Punk and a Hippie.
But of course this is all bitul zman and the only we have time for is WHO CARES WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE AS LONG AS THEY COME NOW!!!!!!!!!
(But actually my bet is Hippie Haredi – just like Dovid HaMelech – a frum nature loving ecstatic dancing musician!)March 12, 2013 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #937909
I believe in separating school from state. End the public school system, end direct funding to yeshivas and just give people vouchers. If people want chiloni schools, let them have their own private chiloni schools.
This post deserves its own thread regarding the merits of a voucher system. All I will say here is that the Charaidim would not want the strings that the government would attach to such vouchers if there is separation between church & state. If you wish to discuss further I would be happy to do so in a new thread.March 12, 2013 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #937910
A monarchy can have an elected king. The Resh Galusa was one, so were Polish kings, so is the Pope. You can also have someone filling in for a king (equivalent to the British concepts of a Regent or a Lord Protector).
There are many ways to argue that a frum government needs consent of the governed. A Jewish king could always agree to a constitution with elected representative – and presumably would be bound by his promise (or oath) to respect it.
A Sanhedrin would require all the gedolim to agree (Ashkenazi and Sefardi, Satmar and Lubavitch, Hasidim and Young Israel). When that happens, you’ll know the revolution has arrived.March 12, 2013 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #937911
ZD and Mobe, The Torah is timeless and was given from All-Knowing HaShem. What you wrote is completely beyond the pale!March 12, 2013 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #937912charliehallParticipant
“it is openly stated in many places that a real Jewish state must be a Torah-based monarchy”
That is not a unanimous opinion. See Abarbanel for a contrary pov, one that is hard to dispute.
“for the most part the of an elected government was unknown until at least the 1600’s in England.”
Actually a few places — including England — had had elected parliaments before then. Many Italian city-states were Republics. And Switzerland has been a Republic for 700 years.March 12, 2013 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #937913
There shouldn’t be any strings. Trust the parents with their own children. Not some journalist who doesn’t have a high school diploma.March 12, 2013 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #937914
There shouldn’t be any strings.
Then why should the government pay for anyone’s education? What is the point? If anything, they should abolish universal schooling (which is Stam not a bad idea. Parents should be responsible for their children, not the state).March 12, 2013 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #937915
England did have a Parliment and France had an Estates General before the 1600’s but it really wasnt until Cromwell overthrew the king and made Parliment ruler did it really stick, Before that the Monarch was more powerful and could disolve parliment
The Florentine states in Italy did have enlightend rules like the Medicis, but in the the The Medicis had the real power.
And a Republic is not exactly a DemocracyMarch 12, 2013 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #937916
mdd: In defense of ZD, the Torah says that Monarchy is a poor form of government. What he is saying (IMHO) is that Chazal could not discribe what Zman Moshiach will be (if it would be a democracy) since the concept of a democracy did not exist yet.
Let it be said though that Pashtus Moshiach will be the Melech, and the Gemorah uses the term “Nasi”, or Prince.March 12, 2013 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #937917
GAW, where does the Torah say it? Anyhow, it is pretty much apikorsus what they are saying. HaShem knew of democracy! It is mefurash in Gemorah and the Rambam that it is a mitsvah to appoint a king. And the Moshiach is going to be a desendant of Dovid ha’melech. And, yes, chazir is ossur.March 12, 2013 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #937918
Charliehall, stop with this outrageous Modernishe practice of pulling out shvere das yechids abd building whole binyanim based on it!March 12, 2013 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #937919
I expect the Haredim to fight Moshiach because he may not recognize their way of life. What if he shows up wearing a baseball cap? What the Haredim are waiting for is someone who will essentially stomp out all competing streams of Judiasm.
A republic is a form of democracy but is not a direct democracy where every citizen makes every choice. There has to be a constitution to protect the minority from being marginalized. The king doesn’t have to be a mere figurehead, either. The Torah provides for a bicameral leadership structure where the power is divided between Moshe and Aaron but that doesn’t necessarily mean absolute monarchy. It’s just that what the king says, goes.March 13, 2013 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #937920danielaParticipant
I agree with GAW at least on the first two points, actually, in regards to #2 I would support getting rid of all strings and obligations along with funding and reduce taxation proportionally: Jews always have been literate throughout history and even when life was very difficult, we sure can trust Jewish families of all persuasions to educate their children, can’t we?
I am not sure about #3 because it seems to me Israel is a geographically small country, perhaps you can explain why you suggested it?
The main problem I see with this plan is that it won’t be implemented 🙁March 13, 2013 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #937921
daniela: At this point, the MKs are not responsible to the voters, but to the parties and where they are placed on the list. Geographic representation would make them responsible to specific voters.
For example, Netanyahu does not have to concern himself with being re-elected, since his party will certainly win seats and he is on top of the list (same for Yachmovitch of Labor, etc.). The MKs have no reason to be responsive to the voters over the needs of the party.March 13, 2013 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #937922NaftushMember
My ideal endgame begins with Jewish unity and ahavat Yisrael that persuades Mashiah that it’s time to come. It continues with the reconstruction of the Mikdash and the restoration of the Red Heifer procedure to cleanse us of tum’at met. It ends (???? ????) with visiting a supermarket to buy Red Heifer powder and having to choose among forty different hechshers, none of which is considered totally reliable for Pessah.March 13, 2013 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #937923haifagirlParticipant
At this point, the MKs are not responsible to the voters, but to the parties and where they are placed on the list. Geographic representation would make them responsible to specific voters.
I happen to disagree.
If I live in an area that is heavily Sephardi, Shas would win. They don’t represent me.
With the current system, Yahadut HaTorah is responsible to the Ashkenazi Charedim. ALL the Ashkenazi Charedim–not just the ones in a particular geographic location that is heavily Ashkenazi Charedi.March 13, 2013 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #937924
Fully agree with ending the draft, but I think that separating religion and state will only result in more chillul shabbos, greater acceptance of homosexuality, etc. It would also rob the Jewish Identity of the State of Israel of whatever connection it maintains to the actual Halachic observance of Judaism. What we have now is far from perfect, but it’s also far better than nothing.
Also, I do think that pursuing peace with the Palestinians is important; fighting a war every two or three years is not a very good long-term plan. That said, we obviously should not be making concessions that will undermine our security (freeing terrorists, giving up East Jerusalem, etc) as long as there is a realistic threat of terrorism.
“I think moshiach will be chareidi, but will arrive wearing a srugi, just to test our ahavas yisroel.”
Lol 🙂March 13, 2013 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #937925
Likud and Bayit Yehudi might reconsider how much they want to permanently antagonize the Hareidim, and limit the sanctions for not serving in the army to loss of yeshiva stipends (rather than fines, loss of welfare state benefits, restrictions on civil rights, etc.). The fact that Likud always has an option to substitute the Hareidim for Lapid will serve to limit Lapid’s options.
Or- the you know what hits the fan and the next year will be very “interesting” (as in the proverbial curse, ‘may you live in interesting times’)March 13, 2013 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #937926
SpiderJerusalem: what if Moshiach turned out to be chareidi? Would you fight him? What if he is Satmar?
Also, there’s no rule he has to be popular. What the masses want is usually not according to the Torah.March 13, 2013 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #937927
ari-free: If people start worshipping him as Haredim are wont to do, then yes I might. Moshiach won’t let anyone worship him, but will guide klal yisroel to return to Hashem. As selfless as Moshe Rabbeinu himself. His kingdom will be known as the kingdom of truth, remember? He has to be someone that the kohen gadol is willing to anoint.March 13, 2013 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #937928
“I expect the Haredim to fight Moshiach because he may not recognize their way of life. What if he shows up wearing a baseball cap?”
What will the D”L do if Moshiach is Neturai Karta?March 13, 2013 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #937929
Moshiach isn’t NK. He isn’t Satmar either. He will not sit with those who would kill his people. He is supposed to be the lowest of the low, hated of men, dead at birth. Certainly not someone who would appear on television shaking hands with a wannabe Hitler like Achmadinejad.March 13, 2013 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #937930ohr chodeshMember
What if Moshiach is Reform? What if Moshiach is chiloni? That makes as much sense.
Of course Moshiach will be “Chareidi”, whatever that means. Chareidi is the term for default original Judaism.March 14, 2013 12:13 am at 12:13 am #937931writersoulParticipant
I don’t get it. If we’re not supposed to have a Jewish state until Moshiach comes, and at the same time people blast Israel for not being one, isn’t that a catch-22? Why is it so important what Israel does, if it’s not even a legitimate Jewish state according to the Torah?
No antagonism meant, just something I’ve wondered for a while.
Anyway, I love the idea of a “hippie haredi” Moshiach. Don’t ask me why.March 14, 2013 12:33 am at 12:33 am #937932
Whether Haredi is default for “original Judaism” is dependent upon your willingness to accept the Baal Shem Tov as a prophet or not, isn’t it.
Does “hippie” mean a pothead attending Phish shows? Just curious.March 14, 2013 1:06 am at 1:06 am #937933
Well, as I always like to say: if you took Rav Shimshon Refael Hirsch’s views on Zionism and combined them with Rav Avraham Yitzchak Kook’s views on tznius, you’d end up with Neturei Karta.March 14, 2013 1:29 am at 1:29 am #937934
Says you. And Satmar will say there’s no way Moshaich will be a Zionist.March 14, 2013 1:34 am at 1:34 am #937935writersoulParticipant
SpiderJerusalem: No, not really- I took the terminology from an above poster, but I always pictured it as a playing-the-(acoustic, definitely)-guitar-in-the-Jerusalem-forest type. or the mountains by Tzfat. You know what I mean.
Chareidi means one who trembles (from Hashem). As long as we use this definition, this is probably what Moshiach will be like. As far as the societal grouping, I’m going to have to go with Yair Lapid on that one and admit that so many of these groupings are essentially modern in nature and thus i is very unlikely that one is the original.March 14, 2013 3:40 am at 3:40 am #937937OneOfManyParticipant
Or- the you know what hits the fan and the next year will be very “interesting” (as in the proverbial curse, ‘may you live in interesting times’)
Not a bad book, as far as the Rincewind ones go. ^_^
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