October 6, 2008 12:19 am at 12:19 am #588399yeellow101Member
Why is it that pple are supporting the desicration of a De’oraysa of tzar ba’le chaim in order to fulfill the minhag of kaparos?!?!?!???
I’m no animal Lover, but keeping chickens cooped for days in small crates and depriving them of their basic needs(such as: food, water, and beng kept away from the sun) goes under the category of tzat ba’le chaim.
This past shabbos, i passed by one of these kaporos sites a few times. These chickens were kept in their tiny crates the intire shabbos, and not once did i see anyone giving them food or water.(i didn’t see any remainder of food on the floor either). On motzei shabbos i asked the owner when was the last time the chickens were fed, and he honestly answered “i fed them before shabbos”.
In every other crate there is a dead chicken. The rest of the chickens are stuck with the dead ones until someone discovers it. This attracts plenty of diseases, and causes the chickens to be unhealthy. These unhealthy, starved chickens, who haven’t stretcked their limbs for days are then fed to the needy of our community. How very Kind!
There is no reason why the pple that organize the kaparos, cant do it properly. They’re making a mint off pple by charging 9 dollars!!! per a chicken- they can use some of that $ to set up an enclosed area where the chickens can walk around in and have them properly fed.
until then i will be making my kaparos on money.October 6, 2008 2:15 am at 2:15 am #623205shindyMember
I agree with you. This mass marketing of capporos chickens should be abolished.October 6, 2008 5:04 am at 5:04 am #623206labochurMember
Doesn’t it say in shulchan aruch that it’s better to not use chickens?October 6, 2008 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #623207
At least SOMEBODY agrees with me!October 6, 2008 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #623208JewessMember
So true…which is why I use money instead of chickens. The money goes to charity and I’m not contributing to chicken abuse.October 6, 2008 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #623209Mayan_DvashParticipant
What about the neighbors who have to deal with the noise and smell?October 6, 2008 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #623210
I agree. The Kaparah centers are missing SUPERVISION! I passed a Kaparah site and they were crates lined up and little boys were poking the Kaparahs with big wooden sticks.
I gave them such a look and they ran off. But who knows if they came right back as I left?October 6, 2008 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #623211
Gimme a break- It’s not that pple disagree with your points. Some of them are very valid. It just depends how you state things….October 6, 2008 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #623213
“What Kind of a Kapora is This??”
It most certainly ISN’T.October 7, 2008 12:48 am at 12:48 am #623214shindyMember
My children used to insist on bringing along food and water for the chickens when we went to do kapporos. Then they refused to go. I have seen children chase and abuse kittens and dogs, my daughter once saved a kitten from being attacked by a crowd of boys.
My husband just does it for us with money. The only way I could do it is if I raise my own chickens and bring them to the shochet. Just chickens are so noisy and MESSY.October 7, 2008 9:17 am at 9:17 am #623215
I was very happy to come across this thread. As a vegetarian, I am often criticized in the Orthodox world, the standard argument being that animals were created for our use. I am not going to get into that discussion here, but whether they are here for us or not, we are in no way free to do what we like with them. If we do use them, for purposes either mundane or holy, we must set certain boundaries for ourselves and always remember that animals have nervous systems and can and do experience pain and suffering. As another member stated, this concept is found d’oraita and is known as tsa’ar ba’alei chayim.
Yom Kippur is approaching, a day when we may not wear leather shoes. This is because we must have mercy on animals if we expect Hashem to have mercy on us. It is also said that having compassion toward animals makes one better able to have compassion toward humans. These are all reasons to avoid the unnecessary cruelty that comes of using chickens rather than money for kaparot.
I was in the Old City last night for Selichot and passed by a group of people doing Kaparot on the street. The chickens were small, pitiful creatures literally piled on top of one another in a tiny enclosed crate. The one that was currently circling a woman’s head (the man at least moved it gently rather than swinging it violently, as I’ve heard happens in some places) clucked pathetically in protest.
***DELETED BY MODERATOR*** PLEASE NOTE WILL WILL NOT TOLERATE THE, MAKING FUN OF ANY PART OF JUDAISM WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAPPEN TO AGREE WITH IT.October 7, 2008 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #623216jphoneMember
“Let’s do away with this barbaric custom!”
Huh? Is the custom barbaric? Seems to me it is how some people go about fulfilling this custom that needs changing, not the actual custom itself.
Personally, I go to a slaughterhouse that brings in a shochet and do my kapparos right there. (For what it’s worth – According to the signs on the wall, the facility meets governmental standards for animal health and safety.)October 7, 2008 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #623217
Just curious – why is everyone, with the unfortunate exception of “jphone,” being understanding towards “yeellow101,” While in my “Kapparos: Chickens, Fish, or Money?” thread, nearly EVERYONE was bashing me.
I particularly would tend to agree “jewishfeminist02” on this point.October 7, 2008 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #623218feivelParticipant
“always remember that animals have nervous systems and can and do experience pain and suffering.”
pain and suffering is a function of consciousness not a nervous system. animals can make motions which appear to as as pain and suffering. perhaps it is, perhaps its not. you can program a robot (ala steven spielbergs creations) to appear to experience pain.
“Yom Kippur is approaching, a day when we may not wear leather shoes. This is because we must have mercy on animals if we expect Hashem to have mercy on us.”
that’s a nice thought but it has nothing to do with why we dont wear leather shoes.
its perfectly fine to wear a leather belt or hat or skirt on Yom Kippur. you can also wear a full mink coat if you like.October 8, 2008 1:41 am at 1:41 am #623221talMember
Thanks you Feivel. Someone finally said it.October 8, 2008 5:27 am at 5:27 am #623222marinerMember
feivel, maybe you can get one of these animal lovers to answer me finally!
how about the azazel. we chuck a goat of a cliff, and it gets shredded to death!October 8, 2008 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #623223ThinkingMember
And shtayt in the mishnah that it was shredded bef. halfway down.
I do not think it really experienced too much pain dying so quickly.October 10, 2008 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #623224
GIVE ME A BREAK- as i said before- depends how you state it. If it’s full of hatred and ridicule, pple get angry at first glance. If it’s put down in a nice way- pple listen.
The problem is that u ruined your reputation. Why dont you change your user name and start new threads on calm and kind notes. Stop bashing everyone. You will see pple will acknowledge you.
Good luck!October 10, 2008 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #623225jphoneMember
“And shtayt in the mishnah that it was shredded bef. halfway down.
I do not think it really experienced too much pain dying so quickly.”
And if it did experience pain, we wouldnt do it? It is a gezeiras hakasuv. Since “dracheah darchei noam” I will assume that the animal was not subject to suffering.October 12, 2008 2:14 am at 2:14 am #623227
Just glancing through the Mishnah Brurah, this was a minhag that was favored by the Arizal. It is a symbolic gesture done to the chicken to help us understand what is stake this time of the year (and chas v’shalom something that we may deserve). The mishnah brurah also goes on to explain that in cases where there is a question where people will push to get the mitzvah done or that due to the mass shechitah that is taking place the shochet will not properly check his knife then money could be used instead. (So it suggested that the shochet should come to the house to avoid these problems something that I doubt to many of out wives would allow…lol)
There was also a suggestion of using money so that the poor person on the receiving end should not feel inferior or bad for getting the “sinner” chicken. So in these cases the value of the chicken should be given to the poor) However, if it is known that he/she would not care, giving the chicken is better so that there is less work for the poor person.
On an interesting side note, it also mentions that after the shechitah is done the entrails should be thrown on the roof (or similar place, of which we could not do today anyway due to saftey and health concerns) as a form of compassion to Hashem’s creatures/ birds who will eat the remains which is a good thing to do before the onset of Yom Kippur.
However, this doesn’t make all the kapporus centers get off the hook. (We have to separate the minhag which is a good thing according to the Arizal and many achronim and the way that we set up the practice) Once they are organized the agency/party involved must take responsibility and accountability that the chickens are treated fairly and that the neighbors are not affected by the smell, noise, and remains of the chickens. If a person feels that there is a Tzar Ba’ali Chaim issue then don’t use them and advocate for a better system. In our neighborhoods the chickens are brought in shifts. Once used for Kapporus, they are taken back to the farm or place where they will shect them and the time in the crates are kept to a very minimum.October 19, 2008 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #623228
First of all, I want to apologize for the way I worded the last part of my post. I see that it was perceived, at least by the moderator, as “making fun” of certain sects of Judaism. I certainly did not mean to mock or ridicule and I hope I did not offend anyone in the expression of my personal opinion.
@jphone- Governmental standards, sadly, are nowhere near where they should be. And hypothetically, if optimal “health and safety” standards were met, that still would not ensure that the chickens were comfortable and did not suffer prior to their death. Too often, advocates of shechitah point to the sharpness of the knives without considering the actual lives of the animals. Perhaps the moment of slaughter is pain-free or virtually so, but what about the unnaturally cramped living conditions the animals must endure before they are large enough to be killed? (Re your first point, I agree. It is the manner of fulfilling the custom and not the custom itself to which I object. Thanks for catching my poorly worded sentence.)
@feivel- R’ Samson Raphael Hirsh stated, “Here you are faced with God’s teaching, which obliges you not only to refrain from inflicting unnecessary pain on any animal, but to help and, when you can, to lessen the pain whenever you see an animal suffering, even through no fault of yours.” If you don’t believe me, take it from the esteemed R’ Hirsh, who uses the very words “pain” and “suffering”. Additionally, have you ever noticed that when babies reach a certain age (usually not before eight months or so) they begin to fixate on mirrors? I’ve done a good bit of babysitting, and it’s a trick I used a lot. When the babies started to fuss, I would hold them in front of a mirror, and they would be fascinated. That’s because they are learning the concept of consciousness. A baby moves his hand and discovers that the baby in the mirror moves his hand too- at the exact same time! What does this mean? The baby is becoming self-aware. Would you therefore say that until this self-awareness occurs, the baby does not experience pain or suffering? Would you therefore say that when a baby begins to wail after being given a shot, he is simply “appearing” to experience pain as if programmed like a robot?
Re your point on leather shoes: if compassion for animals “has nothing to do with” the reason we may not wear leather shoes on Yom Kippur, what then is the reason? It’s true that there are multiple opinions. Compassion for animals happens to be one of them, and is held by the Rama himself, who quotes Psalms. “How can a man put on shoes, a piece of clothing for which it is necessary to kill a living thing, on Yom Kippur, which is a day of grace and compassion, when it is written ‘His tender mercies are over all His works’?” he asks. However, another popular opinion is that we don’t wear leather shoes because we are supposed to afflict ourselves and leather shoes are a sign of comfort. From this perspective, I find it very hard to believe that a person who wears canvas sneakers with a full mink coat is not transgressing halacha.
@mariner- You got your wish. I, a proud animal lover, have an answer for you about the Azazel. The truth is that you could have asked about the Para Adumah or any other animal sacrifice and my answer would have been the same. First, look around you- we don’t perform these sacrifices anymore, and many respected halachic authorities believe that we will not perform them, or at least not the majority of them, even when the third Beit Hamikdash is built. Maimonides says that God only instituted the sacrifices in the first place because the Jewish people were on such a low level that they were greatly influenced by the pagan worshippers, whose core belief systems included animal sacrifice. Without the familiarity of the sacrifices, he posits, the nation might have rejected all of Judaism. Abarbanel, too, quotes a Midrash which states that the Jews learned the concept of animal sacrifice in Egypt and were unwilling to give it up. In order to accommodate their needs at that time while preventing idolatry from creeping into the service, God allowed them to bring sacrifices, but only in one central sanctuary.October 23, 2008 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #623229
I’d suggest you change your screen name. Feminism, among this crowd (but not me), seems to mean that you’re not properly Jewish.October 23, 2008 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #623230eric55Participant
jewishfeminist02 just your screen name itself says everything about you there is no use for anyone to answer your questions it will just fall on deaf ears your a misguided soul p.s are you voting for obama also!?October 24, 2008 3:57 am at 3:57 am #623231
gmab, indeed feminism is antithetical to Judaism.October 24, 2008 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #623232feivelParticipant
what you say about a human baby, whom Hashem breathed life into, as relates to animals makes no sense, however i wont argue it now because:
IF your quotes from R’SRH and the Rama are correct, then i stand corrected.October 24, 2008 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #623233Feif UnParticipant
jewishfeminist02: Your point about wearing canvas shoes on Yom Kippur is a good one. I was talking to my uncle on Sukkos. He learned in Emek Halachah, under R’ Tuvia Goldstein zt”l, and he said that R’ Tuvia used to forbid wearing any shoes or sneakers on Yom Kippur, because the Torah says to afflict yourself, and he held they don’t do that. My uncle told me R’ Tuvia and the students in the yeshiva used to wear galoshes on Yom Kippur!October 25, 2008 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #623236
I’ll be honest; I’m shocked and saddened by some of these responses. What did I do to merit such attack? This is supposed to be an open forum, where we can all feel free to express our opinions, so long as they are politely and respectfully worded.
I won’t be changing my screen name anytime soon. I refuse to hide part of my identity just because it may not be so popular among “this crowd”. I am an observant Jew, and I’m also a feminist, hence the name “jewishfeminist” (the 02 comes from my birthday, February 2.) Whether or not others view me as “properly Jewish” is no concern of mine. I understand that some people see inherent contradictions in the idea of feminism coexisting with Judaism, but I am not one of them. If anybody would like to discuss this further, I’m perfectly willing to create a new discussion thread. Or, if you are interested in learning more about the subject, go to http://www.jofa.org, which is the website of the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance, of which I am a proud member. However, let’s try to stay on topic here.
I’d also like to make it clear that while I am a feminist, I am not only a feminist. That is, there is more to who I am than just feminism. That’s why I described it above as “part of my identity”. Unfortunately, there is limited room in a screen name, so I chose arbitrarily. To say that the sixteen characters of my screen name can describe everything about me is completely untrue and even offensive. To those who believe that there is no use answering my questions- fine! Don’t answer them. But it seems to me that the purpose of this Coffee Room is to provide a space for open discussion, for asking and answering questions, not for leveling unfounded accusations. I am happy to engage in dialogue with those who disagree with me; there would be nothing to talk about if we shared identical opinions! But, please, let’s take care to ensure that it remains a respectful dialogue and not a flame-throwing campaign.
As a matter of fact, I am voting for Obama. I will be delivering my absentee ballot to the post office tomorrow. However, I fail to see what relevance this has to kaporot, which is supposed to be the topic of this thread, or even to feminism, which seems to have become the topic of this thread. Again, I’ll create a new discussion thread if anyone would like to discuss the American elections, but let’s leave politics out of this thread.
As a side note, I sincerely hope that nobody in this forum suspects me of fabricating quotes. I looked them up online (on websites known for their reliability, I might add, not Wikipedia or any such site) and copy/pasted directly onto this thread.October 26, 2008 12:41 am at 12:41 am #623237
jofa ought to drop the “o” in its acronym.October 26, 2008 12:43 am at 12:43 am #623238
anyone can put anything on any website. did those websites happen to be animal rights (or the like) sites?October 26, 2008 1:17 am at 1:17 am #623239lesschumrasParticipant
As you have learned the hard way, open forum on this site is limited to those whose definition of Yiddishkeit matches theirs. Be prepared to be subject to namecalling or worseOctober 26, 2008 2:26 am at 2:26 am #623240
I dont know why everyone is attacking you. What is wrong with having compassion? These days with all the medical knowledge we have about how bad it is for your health to eat animals, why would anyone do it? Its just as unhealthy as smoking. I, myself am a vegetarian. I have been one for 7 years. These days, there really is no need to eat animals. Our bodies are not even designed to digest it. I like your point you bring up about the sacrifices in the `bais hamikdosh. At that point the jews were so entrenched in the culture of idolatry in would have been impossible for them to accept the Torah if they couldn’t do sacrifices. Good post and there is nothing wrong with your screen name. is just fine
zevOctober 26, 2008 2:34 am at 2:34 am #623241
Fine Lady Feminist- although i may grant you that this website provides a forum to discuss and debate issues, it is also true that the overall membership of this site has already(at least to some extent) accepted in their mind that g-d created everything, commanded us in right and wrong and they attempt to do his wishes. For the most part no one here is interested in arguing with the denial of G-D and his torah. WE have already accepted the falsity of that. We’re not interested in arguing with missionaries. WE have already accepted the falsity of that. We’re not interested in defending chazal against the likes of you. WE are secure and steadfast in our knowledge that hashem wrote the torah and commanded us to emulate his middos and gave us other commandments to help us reach that goal. We’re not interested in debating that. We know that already, we have already accepted that truth and it is not necessary for us to debate with the goyim to make us feel secure.
It seems to me that the majority of the posts regarding right and wrong are focused on what is right meaning what does G-D want me to do as opposed to what is right meaning is G-D right.
I apologize (feeling confident that I represent the general membership of “Yeshivaworld”) that we cannot help you to quiet your yetzer tov who is screaming at you, but we have batter things to do than trying to answer the questions of an irrational mind.October 26, 2008 4:39 am at 4:39 am #623242oomisParticipant
I haven’t read every single post on this topic, so if I am being repetitious, I apologize in advance. While it’s true that Man was created to be vegetarian, the Dor Hamabul altered that state and HaShem permitted us to eat meat (probably because it was due to Noach’s care that they survived the flood), and that permission comes with specific restrictions (only KOSHER meat from non-carnivorous animals, no mixing of meat and milk, etc).
AS frum Jews we accept the concept that Ha-Shem would never give us a mitzvah that would cause harm to us. The Mitzvah of Korban Pesach is VERY specific as a chiyuv to all Jews, who must eat of it and finish the meat before the morning. If we were really supposed to remain vegetarian, Ha-Shem would have made a proviso for that. It is not a suggestion that we eat this meat – it is law. Liekwise there are many korbonos that are mitzvahs to be eaten in a certain place (i.e. Yerushalayim), or for a specific reason, or by a specific person (the kohein or levi). Do vegetarians honestly believe that Ha-Shem meant everyone to follow these mitzvos except for them? We were also created to live forever, but Adam HaRishon and Chava caused us to lose that privilege. We were created to live our lives in Gan Eden, but that too was taken away. Just because Man was created a certain way, does not mean that his own actions could not cause Ha-Shem to modify the original plan.October 26, 2008 4:54 am at 4:54 am #623243
Zevi: Where did you get this fact about meat being as bad for you as smoking? It’s funny that the medical world hasn’t caught onto it yet.
We have Korbonos because we wouldn’t have been able to accept the Torah without having a sacrifice? Where do you get this stuff from? I would like to see where your sources are from and some sort of proof to the things that you try to pass off as fact.October 26, 2008 7:15 am at 7:15 am #623244
When hashem finished creation he looked at everything and said it was very good. According to all opinions, this was the state of the world that was perfect in the eyes of god and eventually when moshiach comes, this is how it will be. Which means we will all be vegetarian. According to many sources including navi, man will be vegetarian once again. All the sacrifices were a means for the people of the time to offer to hashem as opposed to offering them to pagan gods. When the third bais hamikdosh is built, there wont be animal sacrifices. This wont be the same world. I know you may attack me for saying this but look in navi (Isaiah is my source) for this. Who said every mitzvah is based on good health? The kohanim were given many a mitzvah that was not good for their health. For example, if you learn mishnah you will see that they had many ailments from the fact that they had to walk around barefoot in the bais hamikdosh. Dont think that every mitzvah hashem gave is good for your health or not bad for your health. The torah isnt a nutrition guide. This doesnt detract from it, but it belittles it if you think that way. Eating meat is proven bad for your health. Thats undeniable. Its scientific fact. the human body would do well not to eat meat, ever. You belittle Hashem when you say that he would not give a mitzvah that is bad for our health. he gave commandments because he wanted people to follow it. Hashem knows that he designed the body for vegetation. he makes concessions to man. Man has the desire to eat meat.In hashems original world, meat eating would have never existed and in moshiachs days, it wont exist.October 26, 2008 7:50 am at 7:50 am #623245
I see no reason for JOfA to drop the “O” in its acronym. If you don’t believe that feminism has a place in Orthodoxy, perhaps you are understanding the concept of feminism incorrectly. I suggest that you do check the JOFA website to see what its founders have to say on the subject before you attack its right to exist. After I post this, I will be creating a new thread for anyone who would like to discuss feminism, but please leave it out of here.
I see that the right to an open forum to express one’s opinion does seem to be limited to those who have mainstream opinions. How can this be so? Don’t you see that name-calling and the like is juvenile and doesn’t accomplish anything? Do you really think that insulting me like this will cause me to change my mind? It is a tremendous aveirah to embarrass a human being. Just because we have not met in person does not mean that you are exempt from this. In my eyes, this discussion thread has become a chilul Hashem. Why was the Beit Hamikdash destroyed? Because we couldn’t get along with each other. I take no offense if you disagree with me, but if you don’t want to leave an intelligent comment explaining your viewpoint, please don’t resort to insults and name-calling. This type of behavior is what divides the community of Am Yisrael and takes us further and further away from the Geulah.
For those who are still in doubt about my sources, I’ll provide the links. However, I see that no one else here has been challenged about where they got their information. The R’Hirsh quote comes from the website of the Jewish Virtual Library, a respected source. According to JVL, the quote comes from Horeb, Chapter 60, #416, if anyone would like to look it up for yourself. By the way, the quote I provided was partial; R’Hirsh continues on the subject to say:
“There are probably no creatures that require more the protective Divine word against the presumption of man than the animals, which like man have sensations and instincts, but whose body and powers are nevertheless subservient to man. In relation to them man so easily forgets that injured animal muscle twitches just like human muscle, that the maltreated nerves of an animal sicken just like human nerves, that the animal being is just as sensitive to cuts, blows, and beating as man. Thus man becomes the torturer of the animal soul. which has been subjected to him only for the fulfillment of humane and wise purposes…”
The Rama quote actually comes from a book, The Jewish Dietary Laws: Their Meaning for Our Time by Samuel H. Dresner, pages 33-34 if anyone would like to check it. I have not read the book, but as far as I know, it is an objective look at kashrut and Dresner himself is not a vegetarian. If he was, however, I would not suspect him of fabricating quotes to support his beliefs, particularly since he quoted the Rama in a published book which was read by countless editors rather than a simple post on a website.
I have to go to work now, but I’ll respond to the rest of the posts when I get back.October 26, 2008 8:50 am at 8:50 am #623246eli levParticipant
while j feminist 02 may have issues…let the truth be told that many women who consider themselves part of the frum community have ideas/feelings about their duties in life that are NOT inline with Torah. Feminism has unfortunately infiltrated our torah community in many subtle ways, and have become accepted…
The Rabonim dont even bother speaking about it become its so far gone…October 26, 2008 11:43 am at 11:43 am #623247
re zevi8 and jewishfeminist: I have a question on this week’s parsha that you may be able to help me with. I just started a cursory review of Parshas Noach for Partners in Torah and came across this: that Noach was told to bring extra kosher animals for sacrificing after the mabul. I haven’t done further research yet but – and I am extrememly serious about this – I wonder if you have and what insights you may have.
Why was he told to bring sacrifices? It couldn’t have been because he was entrenched in animal sacrifice and this was something on his comfort level. Hashem was reworking the world and surely wouldn’t have encouraged something that wasn’t 100% to ensure getting off to a good start. Apparently there is something to all the other mefarshim besides Rambam in the concept of sacrifice, which has its etymological origin in the root karov, coming close. Or is there something else?October 26, 2008 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #623248
When Hashem gave man permission to eat meat, there was no difference in kosher and non-kosher. Noach and his sons and all the other people of that time ate everything. yes Hashem did make a distinction between clean and unclean animals but It doesnt state in the torah that more clean animals were brought onto the ark so that there would be more to sacrifice. Kosher animals are for the most part, the ones that helped man, working the fields and such. Nobody is going to have a pig or a lion help plow his field is he? It was more practical to have more kosher animals than non-kosher animals because they were more useful. Noach wasnt told to bring any sacrifice, he brought them on his own. It doesnt say anywhere that he was told to bring sacrifices. Although man did not eat meat up to this point, i am sure that they brought sacrifices, probably to the sun god and other such gods. When Noach brought a sacrifice to hashem, it says it was a pleasing aroma to god because he was doing it for Hashem and not another god. The sacrifice he brought was a burnt offering which is not eaten, but burnt because man wasnt yet given permission to eat meat. The whole concept of animal sacrifice is deeply rooted in paganism. It was impossible to ask people to give that up so instead god created the laws we have, to offer sacrifice to him and not to other pagan gods.October 26, 2008 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #623249ujmParticipant
Are you in Lakewood?October 26, 2008 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #623250
Zevi, first off, the first Korbonos offered were given by Kayin and Hevel, which is before any pagan sacrifice. Hashem accepted Hevel’s and tried to encourage Kayin to do better. So I have no idea where you came up with the concept that Korbonos were a consession from Hashem. Please give a reliable source to back up this claim.
Last time I checked donkey’s and horses were not Kosher and yet I don’t see any mention of having more than one pair. They are just as usefull as the kosher animals while the kosher birds, giraffe and goats are not such good use for farmers. So it’s time to rethink that logic or come up with a reliable source to this claim as well. While the Torah does not mention the reason for the 7 clean animals RASHI does and I don’t know about you, his word is good enough for me.
Now that Hashem was pleased “because it was offered to him and not another god” Lets see here, for the past 120 years Noach built a tevia because “Hashem” told him to. “Hashem” warned that he was going to destroy the world. Then “Hashem” brought all of the animals to him and then protected him from assault as the rain started. “Hashem” forced him in and when it was over Noach waited for “Hashem” to give him permission to leave to restart a world that “Hashem” destroyed. Then you want us to think that Noach would in any way shape or form offer a sacrifice to any other diety!?!? So please, enlighten me on your source since this logic is way off for me to comprehend.
I would love to know whom in Lakewood you go to for Da’as Torah since you seem to have a different way of learning Rashi and the meforshim.
By the way I deny the fact that meat is harmful. Our bodies were not ment to be vegetarian since Hashem is the creater of the world and gave us the right to eat meat. Any food that one eats in large quantites is bad for you. I would worry more about refined sugar (and fructose) and white flour which have very bad effects on the body. The key is a balanced diet of whole grains, vegetables, fruit and meat in moderation.
There are many meforshim that say that certain korbonos will still exist after Moshiach as well.October 26, 2008 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #623251
Again, this was a cursory review, and I don’t have the Stone Chumash with me to cite the source, but IIRC the commentary clearly says that Noach was commanded to bring the extra animals on deck for sacrifices after the mabul.October 26, 2008 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #623252
@torahls1- I too accept that God created everything and commands us in right and wrong. I too attempt to carry out His wishes. I too am secure and steadfast in the knowledge that God wrote the Torah and gave us commandments which help us emulate Him. I do not deny and have never denied the eternal truth of God and His Torah. I have never seen myself as a “missionary” and do not wish to be perceived as such. I’m sorry that you feel that Chazal needs defending against the “likes of me”. . Just what danger do you think I pose? Do you see me as one of the goyim? I believe in the rightness of God and in striving in all aspects of life to do what God wants me to do. I don’t understand where any of this comes from; what did I write that convinced you that I am an atheist? I sincerely hope that you do not represent the general membership of this website in wildly jumping to conclusions and making baseless assumptions about me and my yetzer tov. Everything that I have written here is completely rational; it is you who are irrational in believing that feminism + vegetarianism= lack of belief in God.
@Bentzy18- I wouldn’t necessarily say that eating meat is as bad as smoking, but it has been proven to be very unhealthy. Sarcasm aside, a large portion of the medical world has indeed “caught on” to this. It is proven fact that meat-eaters have far greater chances than vegetarians of contracting heart disease, stroke, and many types of cancer.
@eli lev- You don’t know me; how can you say so dismissively that I “have issues”? You seem to regard feminism as the enemy; I, on the other hand, think it good news, and not bad, that feminism has “infiltrated”, as you put it, the frum community. As I have now stated more than once, the belief that feminism and Torah observance/belief are incompatible often stems from a misconception of what feminism actually is. I suggest (and I say this quite seriously) that you do a little research into the matter, and you will find that feminism (except for the radical feminism branch) is fully consistent with Torah values, and even that the Torah encourages feminism. You seem to think that the rabbis have simply given up hope of stemming the tide of feminism, and that is why they don’t speak about it. This doesn’t seem very convincing to me; there are many inappropriate behaviors practiced by today’s Jews that are so widespread that it seems impossible to reverse them. Loshon hara, for example, is everywhere, even among the most respected Orthodox communities. It seems to be “so far gone” that a loshon hara- free world is nowhere in sight. Yet do rabbis cease to give shiurim on the topic of loshon hara? Do you see them refraining from rebuke since it is unlikely to change the situation? Of course not!
@zevi8- Thanks for coming to my defense and joining the discussion. You seem to have many intelligent ideas, some of which had never occurred to me before.October 26, 2008 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #623253
Yes. Probably one of the only jewish vegetarians in lakewood tooOctober 26, 2008 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #623255
Fine Young Lady Feminist- The mere definition of feminism or any such activist group is antithetical to Judaism. Judaism is not based on, but rather wholly IS the word of G-D transmitted through the generations by those are educated and trained in proving from the text of tanach information that I would not have otherwise seen regarding the entire world and including everything and everything. The individual does not get an “opinion” in the matter. They don’t even get a say in the facts. The rabbanan of the generation who were trained by their rabbeim and in turn train their talmidim are the only ones in the whole wide world who can tell you the truth about the world. The rishonim and acharonim most certainly fit into this category and their word IS law. I feel I have a right in this forum as one who is being trained to be able to lead the next generation of Yeshiva Orthodox jews(not saying thats the path I want in life) to merely say over the facts I have learned under the tutelage of the rabbanan of this generation. You have no say in the matter. Only G-d does. Zevi has no say in the matter. Only G-d does. Even I have no say in the matter. I- just because hashem as granted me the privilege to spend my days immersed in his torah- simply happen to know what G-d says on the matter and I don’t try to alter what he says to fit what I think proper morals SHOULD be.
Finally and most definitely some agenda driven, silly wackos on some silly website have no say in the matter. ONLY G-D DOES.
To sum it all up, an activist group is based on the assumption that all people have a right to their opinions regarding morals and ethics and that if it appears that ones self given morals are not being observed, then one should go out and make the people aware of how THEY want the public to lead their lives. This most certainly has nothing to do with judaism. The fact that you are jewish has nothing to do with te fact that you claim to be a feminist. There are many slummy people out there who are jewish so you are not extraordinary in that regard.October 26, 2008 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #623256
I will not deny that it is not wise to eat red meat on a regular basis (dialy). However as part of a well balanced diet (alternating between chicken and fish as well) I don’t see the need to prohibit it’s use. The western diet is very unhealthy one and the amount of meat (as well as fried food, white flour, refined sugar, plus the fact most people don’t eat enough fruits and vegetables) lead to a very unhealthy lifestyle. The key is moderation and it’s a valuable lesson about most things we engage in our normal lifestyle and activities. As it is, my wife and I have done a lot of research into foods over our marriage and engage in a diet that accommodates all needs (health and religion). One thing I do notice is that research information is vague and they don’t tell you what else was eaten with the meat. (Most likely it was white flour). One thing I have noticed, is that vegetarians in general (by nature of thier lifestyle choice) pay more attention to what they eat than non-vegetarians. So I’m not surprised that their eating habits are better.
I also notice that a lot of the research is being provided by some group that is trying to enforce their philosophy.
In other research (and it took me a long time to believe this as well) Dr Atkins had various tests the showed that the fat that is in meat can only be broken down with carbohydrates. The less fiber in the bread the greater the risk of damage with the meat. When you serve the meat with high fiber, lots of vegetables and no sugar you reduce a lot of the risks that the studies have mentioned.October 27, 2008 2:18 am at 2:18 am #623257lesschumrasParticipant
“just because hashem as granted me the privilege to spend my days immersed in his torah- simply happen to know what G-d says on the matter and I don’t try to alter what he says to fit what I think proper morals SHOULD be.”
Next time you’re on the phone with Hashem, ask him when this economic crisis will be over. It is the height of gaiva to claim to have a pipeline to Hashem. Everything you say is, of course, your opinion, not fact. You base your opinion on the supposition that your world view of Yiddishkeit is the only one and that your view of ethics and moral is the only one. That, of course is only your opinion, which you have a right to.October 27, 2008 10:42 am at 10:42 am #623258
Thanks lesschumras, you took the words right out of my mouth. No human being in today’s world, no matter how much time he or she spends studying Torah, can possibly “happen to know what God says on the matter”. We were given the Torah, but the Torah is cryptic and unimaginably complex. Halacha is based on interpretations of passages in the Torah. In order to live a Torah-observant lifestyle, it is not only acceptable but absolutely necessary to have an opinion. Otherwise, how would one know what to do? The Torah is at times seemingly contradictory, and even the simplest pshat leaves plenty of room for disagreement. Elu V’Elu Divrei Elokim Chayim! (All this, of course, cannot justify murder or certain other extreme examples, but overall it is a working system.)
torahls1, you seem to have a mistaken impression of what it means to be a Jewish feminist. I do not take new morals from feminism and try to fit them into Judaism; rather, I believe that, far from being antithetical to it, the Torah itself advocates feminism. All I have done is to take basic Torah values and apply them under a different name. Feminism, after all, is a misnomer, and it is the name that scares most people off. They believe that feminism is about elevating the status of women above the status of men, which couldn’t be further from the truth. (If you would like a detailed explanation of what feminism actually is, please request it in the feminism thread, which can be found in the Beit Midrash forum.) I must ask you, however, to refrain from using derogatory terms in your posts. V’ahavta l’re’acha camocha- would you appreciate it if I called you a slummy, silly, agenda-driven wacko? (And by the way- where did I ever mention my age? How do you know that I am a “young lady?”)
Bentzy18, you have some good points. I will not deny that a great deal of the obesity epidemic in America is due to diets heavy in white flour and refined sugar just as much as red meat. However, there is no denying that chicken still contains a great deal of fat and cholesterol, and fish also contains high levels of mercury. While vegetarian diets are more difficult to maintain because they require one to consume several different types of food during the day to accumulate all of the essential amino acids, they are also healthier in this regard. One who consumes all of the amino acids from various sources is better off than one who consumes them all from one meal of chicken.October 27, 2008 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #623259
The Torah is Hashem’s word. Period. If one wants to know Hashem’s opinion on a matter, one should read the Torah. One must do as it says. And if there is any ambiguity, it is up to the Rabbonim to clarify, not ones own “opinion.”October 27, 2008 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #623260
Thanks for all the input.
I do have an appreciation for vegetarianism, such as the modern factories’ pollution, and avoiding red meat. But I have met people with physical conditions, such as rapid metabolism due to endocrine disorder, people on the specific carbohydrate diet for Crohn’s and other IBDs, and it’s very difficult to them to maintain health while avoiding all animal protein.
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