what people look for in shidduch dating

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  • #604279
    Curiosity
    Participant

    Being new to “the parsha”, I would like to know if all young women who are frum enough to be shidduch dating are also the type that want a man who is in Yeshiva. I’ve yet to do my own research, but I get the hint that guys who decide that kollel isn’t their thing have a much tougher time finding a nice frum girl. Are there shidduch dating girls out there that want a frum working/college bochur, or does seminary brainwash everyone to desire a “shtarka masmid”?

    #888348
    Curiosity
    Participant

    …..I didn’t mean to say sem girls are brainwashed, but you know what I mean.

    #888349

    “Are there shidduch dating girls out there that want a frum working/college bochur?”

    Um, Yes. Me and every single one of my friends.

    Bit of advice: Don’t date girls straight out’ve seminary….they all still think they are Rachel Ameinu..

    #888350
    candy613
    Member

    I think you have a very valid concern, but I do believe that everything is so min hashamayim that there is so no need to let it eat you up, which trust me i know is easier said then done.

    Now I do not think anyone from my seminary was brainwashed at all especially with a mindset like that! But I really could only talk for myself. I went to a very frum Bais Yaakov Seminary, and The number one stressed point was TORAH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD! from this we were taught that it is something you truly need to build your life upon. My seminary was a mix though, and so there was no cookie cutter command saying you are bad if you do not marry a full time learner! We were shown the importance of marrying someone who has chashivus hatorah and who loves torah more then anything else! THIS DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN A FULL TIME LEARNER! I believe it is a mentality and mindset. There are girls who are not ready or built to give up enough to have a full time learning husband, but are still amazing great girls. They also may not have support from their parents, which is a whole other story…. My point is that I think it is important to marry someone who considers torah most important, but that can mean learning in the morning seriously before work and having a set shiur and chavrusah at night. It’s not how much time they are spending doing each task, but which is more important and which they are living their life upon! I feel like I am really not clear, but I think you have nothing to worry about as long as you are someone who loves learning and understands that your torah is your main job and that your physical work is just a side and part of olam hazeh… it is not which is receiving more time, it is which is more loved by you? Which is your focus in life? Good luck in all you do!

    #888351
    interjection
    Participant

    Some Modern Orthdox also use shadchanim.

    #888352
    Csar
    Member

    When they are straight out of high school or sem, they ARE Rochel Ameinu. Best time to marry them is then.

    As time progresses, and high school sem becomes more of a memory than a lifestyle, they become more distant from the Torah ideals.

    Catch them while they are young and full of love of Torah.

    #888353
    candy613
    Member

    There are many girls who come home from seminary with their feet rooted firmly on the ground. They are in a great place. Some girls are less grounded as time goes on. But then again you are right there are times where girls come back from seminary kind of floaty, but just keep in mind it really is not all!

    Just reminded me my teacher in seminary always said You all want your husbands to be a Rabbi Akiva, but are you willing to be his wife Rachel? I think that is just brillian!!!! but not ness. the point here just had to mention it! 😉

    #888354
    Curiosity
    Participant

    Thanks for the responses…NOMTWicked, thanks, that’s very encouraging. But interjection, I’m not sure whether to laugh or cry at yours Haha.

    What Czar said kinda leads into my next question. I had this discussion with a friend of mine who also posts on CR sometimes. It seems like when we are young and still in the Torah education system we are on a much higher level than a few years after we leave. By that point we kind of reach our “equilibrium”, where we aren’t what we used to be when we were in our specific Torah system, but we are at our natural independent madrega, and hopefully growing.

    What are your opinions on trying to date someone who is on a slightly “higher level” than you, to help you bring out your best side? Not someone who’s too far ahead, but just enough to tip you over your equilibrium state, to a point where you are still comfortable. I mean this as opposed to dating someone who makes you feel comfortable doing things or acting in ways that you want to grow out of. Not necessarily grossly terrible things, but just areas that you want to grow in. Do you think its fair to the other person? Is it honest to be “on your best behavior”? How do we ever know if our shidduch isn’t a totally different personality than what we are seeing?

    #888355
    Csar
    Member

    I think that’s a great idea.

    #888356
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Don’t date girls straight out’ve seminary….they all still think they are Rachel Ameinu..

    Yes, that would be inappropriate. Since I think I am Avraham.

    #888357
    Curiosity
    Participant

    Candy, you took a lot of time to write all of that and I didn’t even address you. Sorry, it’s because I had to go back and re-read it. I think I understand what you are saying. I think it’s true that we have to be machshiv Torah and make that the focus of our lives. In terms of love.. I think loving the Torah is just an expression of loving Hashem, it’s not the end goal. Some people love learning, and some don’t, that’s why some people go into harbotzas haTorah and others aren’t cut out for it. It’s not just a matter of intellectual capacity. Not trying to be gaivadic (I’m still anonymous), I was one of the top guys in my shiurim and I just didn’t see myself becoming a lifelong rebbe or kiruv person. I wasn’t happy sitting in a beis medrash all day, so I went to college where b”H, I feel accomplished. I still enjoy learning, but not 13 hours a day. I want to run my life with Torah hashkofa and all, but it just seemed like all shidduch dating girls are taught in seminary that in order to have their cheilik in Torah they need to support a husband who is sitting and learning all day. Thanks for the response.

    #888358
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    If all the girls you are looking for are looking for something else, change some of the search criteria. I am not meaning change your priorities etc, I mean you must be looking in the wrong box. No doubt there is another one with girls that would interest you who are looking for someone like you. For instance, pick a different shadchan, or a different seminary, or a different neighborhood. As NOMTW pointed out, what you are asking for sounds great, you just haven’t spoken in the right ears yet.

    Hatzlacha!

    #888359
    princess17
    Member

    curiosty-I think most boys out there SHOULD have ur point of view in learning.the world was made for men to work to support there wife and family and NOT the other way around!!! the boys who realize this should not be considered more modern or less frum for doing what hashem wants from them (as it even says in the kesuva that a man is supposed to support his wife). of course learning is important and all boys should learn everyday of their lives but they dont have to do it 24/7 every hour of the day . That should only be reserved for a select few people in this world who are on that madrega(level)to really learn and breathe torah. because torah does support the world, but living a kollel life is NOT for everyone and people have to wake up and realize that!!!! hashem gave the ladies a curse to have a hard time having children with pain… betzev teldi banim … and men- bzaos apecha tochal lechem(with the sweat of ur brow….work …to get bread . so why are girls taking both curses on themselves???? Its a mixed up world!! and u are one of those people who are not mixed up so dont worry ! hopefully ull find ur bashert soon! at the the right time to the right perosn – someone who will appreciate ur values and not wish u were learning full time! hatzlacha

    #888360

    As an addendum (As princess17 pointed out): Women were not made to support their husbands. You say you have a good mind and chose to pursue a college education while maintaining a shuir? You’re the gold standard.

    (Ok all the kollel couples, bring it on lol)

    #888361
    MCP
    Member

    Princess/NOMTW – I agree with you 100%. A select few belong in Kollel, the rest of the boys should be working to support their families.

    Curiosity – I’m was working before I was dating, had a chavrusa every night, and never had a problem getting dates. I was engaged within a year after I started dating, which isn’t bad considering my wife and I dated for 3 months. You just need to look in the right places. Maybe you could go out with NOMTW or one of her friends – ask the mods to set you up.

    #888362
    Curiosity
    Participant

    Haha, thanks MCP. It’s probably cus I’m from “oot”, and wouldn’t ever agree to live the big city life. My gut tells me living somewhere that actually has girls to date is very conducive to dating… May you and your family be mevorach.

    #888363
    TheGoq
    Participant

    “Bit of advice: Don’t date girls straight out’ve seminary….they all still think they are Rachel Ameinu..”

    Great line NOMTW!!!!!

    #888364
    interjection
    Participant

    “I’m not sure whether to laugh or cry at yours Haha”

    I was commenting on this “young women who are frum enough to be shidduch dating”.

    I know some very solid Bais Yaakov girls in the parsha who have the ideals of a life of Torah but they want a husband who will go out to work.

    #888365
    LIVEandLEARN
    Member

    Curiosity.. My single friends and I your concerns too. As girls we want a guy who is solid in his foundation hashkafically and has a plan for his future. While theoretically we all would love to support learning husbands, its not always realistic. I think you want a girl who is also very frum, dedicated to yiddishkeit and is always perfecting her middos. Newsflash- Girls want the same thing! While most of us want a guy with a solid yeshiva background, but many girls aren’t looking for the next rosh yeshiva. BTW most of my friends and i are from out of town too. It sounds like you’re a real ben torah with his priorities straight. So just have bitachon:)

    #888366
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    It’s probably cus I’m from “oot”, and wouldn’t ever agree to live the big city life. My gut tells me living somewhere that actually has girls to date is very conducive to dating… May you and your family be mevorach.

    Then a simple solution is to date OOT girls ONLY who want ot live OOT. They have a different mindset than in town (east coast north of DC), and are very practical (which by definition resists brainwashing).

    #888367
    Csar
    Member

    There’s more girls in shidduchim than guys. So the girl often has to accept whatever is available.

    #888368
    princess17
    Member

    There are plenty of girls that would date oot as u call it. unless ur really far out like a long plane ride away,then girls might not want to move that far away from their family. so date girls from ur town!.

    #888369
    a mamin
    Participant

    I definitely think it’s better to go out with someone a little frummer than you , rather than a little less. Believe me, I’ve heard from others what they have to go through, when they end up marrying someone who is really much less then them.

    #888370
    Bar Shattya
    Member

    I think what a mamin meant to say is that you should marry someone who appears more frum than you are just like you try to appear more frum than you are for if you were to prioritize marrying someone who is actually more frum than you are then we are forced to say that your spouse married someone less frum than they were thus rendering them stupid and why would you want to marry someone stupid

    #888371
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I definitely think it’s better to go out with someone a little frummer than you , rather than a little less. Believe me, I’ve heard from others what they have to go through, when they end up marrying someone who is really much less then them.

    Ummm. Doesn’t that mean you shouldn’t marry someone who is frummer than you also? Because otherwise they will be the one marrying someone less frum than them (you). And since I’ve never heard a marriage where one was happy and the other not…

    #888372
    Curiosity
    Participant

    Csar, I loled at your macroeconomic perspective of the shidduch “market”.

    Gavra_at_work, that’s what I hear also; that the mindset is very different. I’m still very new to this though, so I can’t speak with any experience.

    Live and Learn, what “oot” cities do you think have such girls (that I should ask a shadchan about)?

    Princess, the few girls from my city that are in the parsha go elsewhere to date bc we don’t have a big shidduch market here, yet. Besides, I would like to broaden my horizons and marry someone not from here. Visiting the in-laws is a great excuse to go on vacation. I’m thinking… Florida! Hmmm…Are there any frum Jews from Hawaii? Haha 😛

    #888373
    a mamin
    Participant

    Bar Shattya: You are being a drei Kup. I meant exactly what I said, the ramifications of marrying someone a little frummer than you does not cause the same turbulence as marrying someone less frum than you!

    #888374
    Curiosity
    Participant

    Bar Shattya, one flaw there… What happens three months after the chupah when one day they both discover that their spouse is not as frum as they each thought? They were both “putting on an act”, so to speak, and weren’t being their natural selves. I assumed that when only one of the spouses (spice?) is “appearing” frummer than natural – but within their comfort zone – then its sustainable, but if both of them are putting on an appearance then it’s a shaky foundation. Btw, I didn’t mean you should lie and give off the impression that you’re a shtarka yeshivish bochur when in reality you eat at KFC every shabbos- I just meant find someone whose level of frumkite brings out the better side of you.

    #888375
    LIVEandLEARN
    Member

    Curiosity- I’m from originally Florida so maybe your wish could come true.. Floridians, especially the girls are awesome and chilled! I think baltimore, LA and Detroit have some really amazing girls as well. Not that NYers aren’t awesome. ( my best friend is from flatbush).

    #888376
    bygirl93
    Member

    cr shidduch idea!!!!! curiosity and LiveandLearn!!!! (or one of her friends!)

    #888377
    bygirl93
    Member

    I don’t know about any other place but the sem I went to did not brainwash us at all. while they did say that someone learning for a long time is great and amazing- they also STRESSED that it is not for everyone, you have to know yourself. They constantly said that not everyone is cut out for that life, if you are that’s good for you if not that’s good for you too! as long as it’s what is right for you. they also stressed YOU ARE NOT HIS MASGIACH!!!a lot of girls expect their husbands to learn learn learn, they don’t realize that there is a time to chill- that they are not there to make sure he learns, but to encourage him, otherwise you end up with a lot of built up resentment on both sides. Also a lot of us want guys who WANT to learn, there are plenty of guys learning now that are just doing it for shidduchim, I personally would rather someone who is in school/but has a seder/ chavrusa at some point during the day rather then have someone who is just in yeshivah for shidduchim. but I’m just one girl….. but i know quite a few of my friends feel the same way…..

    #888378

    “.the world was made for men to work to support there wife and family and NOT the other way around!!!”

    Actually, originally there was no b’zeias apecha.

    Furthermore, a woman gets schar for her husbands learning, and since it’s the biggest mitzvah in the world, by a long margin, i imagine that it might be worth a little sacrifice. And see what the chofetz chaim writes at the beginning of shem olam. Furthermore, one of the gedolei hador of the prev generation said that it is vital to be learning the first year of marriage, as the first year defines what the marriage will be, and it is smart to indocrinate a chashivus of Torah and proper life priorities etc into ones marriage.

    “curiosty-I think most boys out there SHOULD have ur point of view in learning”

    Because you clearly know better than the gedolim what hashkafos to instill in guys. all systems have their drawbacks, but it takes a gadol to weigh them – i daresay you have no shaychus whatsoever.

    “so why are girls taking both curses on themselves????”

    Bec it’s well worth it. We say brachah of “shelo asani isha” with good reason too.

    #888379

    “Princess/NOMTW – I agree with you 100%. A select few belong in Kollel, the rest of the boys should be working to support their families.”

    Perhaps we can replace the incompetant moetzes with the more brilliant, inspired minds of the cr!!

    Judaism is not a democracy

    #888380

    i heard very awesome seminary story: Teacher says that “shelo asani goy” – even micheal jordan. Girl marries avid sports fan, tells him this. His response: “shelo asani isha” – even Rebbetzin —.

    #888381

    Many many chashuv rabbeim in yeshivos hold that seminary, from a academic religous standpoint, is at best pointless and at worst have teachers who spout untrue krum hashkafos. Case in pt: Multiple times over past few years, daughter of rabbi in a yeshivah gedolah came back having been told that “only guys who are burned out go into chinuch or dayanus, etc” Response: So all Roshei Yeshivos were “burned out?!?!?!?!?!!?”

    #888382
    Bar Shattya
    Member

    curiosity

    i dont know why you were addressing me when you were discussing flaws. I was just explaining what a mamin was saying so i didnt even read your post carefully enough to debate it.

    And once we’re on the topic of a mamin we may as well point out that not only did she not comprehend my post she didnt even comprehend her own post. what a dolty.

    #888383
    LIVEandLEARN
    Member

    Bygirl- lol wasn’t my objective:) But i’m always lookin out for my friends;)

    #888384
    Kudali
    Member

    Candy613-

    I remember my teacher from sem saying-girls want to marry a Rabbi Akiva, but would they date a Rabbi Akiva? (It was Rachel who helped him actualize his potential, she foresaw the tremendous heights he could reach before he became a great and famous torah scholar.

    #888385
    Curiosity
    Participant

    Bar Shattya, I think you were extrapolating on A Mamin’s point of view. I didn’t read that into what he/she said, so I addressed you. I then went on to explain what the “nafka mina” might be if you have two people looking to appear as frummer to each other, as opposed to what A Mamin and I were discussing when only one person is actually frummer than the other.

    Man… This reminds me of chazoras hashiur in yeshiva.

    #888386
    Curiosity
    Participant

    Machoh timcheh – I, for one, do not believe only a “select few” should be in kollel. I think if you can, then you should, but you also have to deal with reality. If you can both happily manage on a kollel stipend and one salary then great. Otherwise, you need money to live in our day and age, and with the global economy the way it is, you need to have a secular education to stand a chance in the free market. It’s also important to do something you like, because if you’re going to be miserable being an accountant you might as well just go be miserable being a marbitz Torah. If you feel being in harbotzas haTorah isn’t for you, and you won’t be happy doing it your whole life then you should go and learn to make a living from something you enjoy, instead. Hashem doesn’t want a nation of roshei yeshivas, just like he doesn’t want a nation of Kohanim, or a nation of Leviim. We are all created for a different tachlis and our job is to serve Hashem by figuring out which way he wants us to lead our lives.

    If you stay in kollel you likely won’t have time for a decent job, and if you have no job you can’t support a family. Hashem said “pru urvu”, Chaz”al say bli kemach ein Torah. What Hashem didn’t say is, “wear a white shirt and sit in kollel while your wife cooks, cleans, works three jobs and takes care of your 7 kids”. If she’s a “Rochel” and you want to sit and learn, then that’s the right thing for you, but if she’s not – then it’s an issur gamur to make your family live in misery and force them to make sacrifices that they resent because you think you need to have 3 sdarim.

    #888387
    Curiosity
    Participant

    It’s possible for a person to be a CEO, or an electrician, or a garbage collector and still have a seat right next to Rebbi Akiva in Olam Haba. Only Hashem can judge a person. Yes, not even our gedolim can judge us. The reason they push for people to go to kollel is because if they don’t then the ones who really can and should will fall through the cracks. Every individual in klall Yisrael has to know themselves and dig their own psyche with emes v’yosher to determine what is the right amount of time to sit in Yeshiva; whether it’s for a lifetime, or not at all..

    #888388
    Curiosity
    Participant

    One more thing Machoh Timcheh. All of these anonymous “Choshuv rabbeim in yeshivos” that allegedly hold that seminary is pointless – do their daughters go to seminary?

    #888389
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I then went on to explain what the “nafka mina” might be if you have two people looking to appear as frummer to each other, as opposed to what A Mamin and I were discussing when only one person is actually frummer than the other.

    Man…

    Let me get this straight: you think it is ok for one to be frummer than other other? Or it isn’t? a maamin said it is not ok to marry someone less frum than yourself, because then one will be frummer than the other…

    #888390
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It’s possible for a person to be a CEO, or an electrician, or a garbage collector and still have a seat right next to Rebbi Akiva in Olam Haba.

    Yes. But notice the example you picked was of Rabi Akiva, who was of the rabbanon.

    #888391
    Curiosity
    Participant

    PbA – To avoid further confusion on what A Mamin said I’ll try to explain it in a very simple way.

    A Mamin was saying marrying someone who is OPENLY a little less frum than you – that’s bad.

    On the other hand, marrying someone who is slightly more frum than you, (but around whom you can comfortably act frummer and behave just as frum as they are) – that’s good.

    In regards to R’ Akiva – that’s because I’m addressing Machoh Timcheh, who seems to believe that what Hashem wants of EVERYONE is to be in kollel and become a rabbi. I’m talking to a stigma, so I must address the stigma….

    You can’t troll me, bar Abba… You just can’t touch this ; )

    #888392
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    A Mamin was saying marrying someone who is OPENLY a little less frum than you – that’s bad.

    On the other hand, marrying someone who is slightly more frum than you, (but around whom you can comfortably act frummer and behave just as frum as they are) – that’s good.

    Does that make sense? Won’t that mean that your spouse is marrying someone less frum than them–and then they will have a bad marriage (and therefore you as well)?

    #888393
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    curiosity – just forward your resume this way, lots of us a partial to OOTers

    #888394
    Curiosity
    Participant

    No. A Mamin isn’t saying you shouldn’t marry someone who is just as frum as you. That’s what the spouse is ending up doing. We’re discussing when Person A is independently less frum than Person B, but when A is put together with B, A naturally steps it up to that of B’s level… Chazarah bar abba, chazarah. 🙂

    #888395
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So when A is with B, A steps it up to B’s level.

    So why should B marry A? B should marry C, so that together B will step it up to C’s level.

    #888396
    Curiosity
    Participant

    Because C is an in-town guy… Duhh!

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