What would you have done in this situation.

I would dan l’kaf zchus and assume that there is something under the surface that is not visible to the naked eye. Most probably you should say B”H that this bochur comes to shul to daven with the tzibur. It is not likely that a child or a bachur without some sort of issue would come that late, or would make a scene and bring notice to himself that he did come late rather than just sneak in quietly and catch up. The fact that he immediately made himself the center of attention and either did not notice or did not care is not b’derech hatevah. Please don’t rush to judge that it is an act of chutzpah. It might just not be.

Since my shul is somewhat of a minyan factory, this is a daily occurence. I try to daven at the early minyonim, as the “shuklers” and “top-of-their-lung” people tend to daven a bit later.

But to tell someone to tone it down? No, that I wouldn’t do. They mean it sincerly, and the truth is, we really SHOULD be davening like we’re on fire, so I think you did the right thing by not saying anything

But to tell someone to tone it down? No, that I wouldn’t do. They mean it sincerly, and the truth is, we really SHOULD be davening like we’re on fire, so I think you did the right thing by not saying anything

My right to swing my fist, the saying goes, ends at your face. Likewise, the young man in question has a right to daven with as much fervor as he likes, but his right ends when he disturbs other people and prevents them from davening. To paraphrase the gemara, who says his davening is sweeter to HKBH’s than the OP’s? As such, I believe that, in theory, he should be made aware that he is disturbing others and asked to tone it down.

I say in theory because I don’t know the entire situation. It’s possible that, in saying something, he won’t change anyway (or, if he’s perverse, just “up the ante”). Nor do I know if the OP has the option of moving or not. In short, the OP has to do a risk/reward analysis (perhaps speak to a rav he respects for advice?) on whether or not to actually say something.

The Wolf

May I suggest that if it is difficult to daven because of other’s loud kavonos that one might try some earplugs to tune out some of the static and to have some more personal space to have their own kavonos and personal interaction with Hashem.

A punch in the nose? Hm, you have a point. Ok, let me say it a different way.

A few years back, my father was in the year for his mother. On top of that, he was on the threshhold of a surgical procedure. One morning during chazzoras ha’shatz, he started to cry (not, just weepy eyed.. I mean sobbing) by refoanu and again by shema kolainu.

Someone asked me, “what’s wrong?”

Before I could answer a 3rd person said “a yid cries by davening and we wonder whats wrong? We should all cry by davening. WE (those of us who daven like we’re reading a grocery shopping list) are the ones who have somwthing “wrong” with them.

Ok, so perhaps davening like its neelah every day, 3 times a day is a bit extreme. But, speaking for myself at least, a little more “bren” would not be a bad thing.

Besides, GAW has point. There may have been a special circumstance that trigered the outburst. Dan l’kaf zechus is a safe choice.

In addition, the OP did not tell us if this was a one-time occurrence of if he does this every day. If it’s one-time, then I agree that perhaps it’s best to let it pass. If, OTOH, it’s a regular occurrence, then it should be addressed.

The Wolf

It clearly is annoying. I personally would consider it an opportunity to work on my own Kavanah and skills at concentrating and becoming immersed in my Tefilos enough to not notice outside distractions of any sort, such as this, or talking, or construction outside.

But if this fails certainly the best approach would be to tell the Rav of the Shul of your problem and ask him to help if it is possible.

I wouldn’t say anything to the disturber myself. Unless you are better at speaking to people than me, most likely nothing will be accomplished except frustration, further anger and animosity between two Yidden, whether you are right, or not.

What I took your comment to mean (as I think you intended it) was that someones actions (like davening loudly) may have a negative impact on me (getting punched in the face).

You were clear; I was not

Nope… I guess I wasn’t clear.

There is a saying that goes: “Your right to swing your fist ends at my face.” IOW, you’re free to do what you like, as long as you don’t interfere with me. It has nothing to do with negative impacts — it’s just a moshol. I was just using the saying as a basis for my next statement — that your right to daven loudly ends when it interferes with someone else’s davening.

The Wolf

I would have (and have done this in the past), politely asked if he could keep his voice down.

I think we can all agree that true sincerity would not have been considered an “interruption” much like crying at a funeral would not be shusshed.

Its just that so many of us have seen “showmanship” (or as Wolf said one up-manship) that we can’t always tell who’s for real and who’s playing the game.

All things being equal, I think I’d rather be “bothered” by someone davening too loud than someone’s cellphone carnival-like ring going off for the 3rd time in one tefillah (yes, I’ve seen that..and they looked surprised when it rings. Duh.)

I believe that we have to work on ourselves and not be so quick to judge or react. We need to take to breaths before reacting or rather over-reacting and thing of reasons why the other person might be behaving in that particular manner.

However, I do agree that children do not belong in shul unless they are quiet or of an age that they can daven. Shul is not a place for children to congregate and play. There is also an issue of dirty diapers in a place where you daven. So it is better to daven at home and not bring your children to shul, stay outside with them, or get a babysitter if you want to go to shul.